The systematic destruction of history.

enno99

ScumLord wrote: »

It could very well be white Europeans covering up non European civilizations, as has happened all over Africa. For the longest time when Europeans went back to Africa in the 18th century on if they found any evidence of powerful civilizations IE: large buildings and evidence of infrastructure. They assumed it must have been some lost ancient European civilization, they assumed it was more likely to be some wandering Greeks than local Africans being able to build large cities. This still happens today, with White people using a false assertion that an apparent lack of ancient African structures legitimises their claim that south Africa was essentially barren of human life before they got there, so whites have every right to stay because they got to the land first.

It's all nonsense though and most of ancient Africa was dug up in a desperate attempt to find the original Greek culture they assumed started the building.

Given Australia's history of racism and they're proximity to New Zealand, it wouldn't surprise me if something similar was happening. If there is actually an embargo it could be because whites didn't want to legitimise the indigenous peoples claims to the island, and paint them as simple tribes people that had little to no culture. And maybe the reason the embargo continues is because no politician wants to deal with an undercurrent of racism.

The much discussed "Embargo" document signed by Archaeologist, Michael Taylor and accompanying 14 pages of "something", which neither the general public nor bona fide research workers were permitted to view until the year 2063. The document states, in the handwriting of Michael Taylor, that 'Prior consultation requires approval of the Te Roroa- Waipoua Advisory Committee or other appropriate subsequent Te Roroa authority'. The printed line, which would allow bona fide research workers access to the information has been crossed out and overwritten with, 'restricted until 2063'. The overall intent of this document, as the covering-page for a body of archaeological information deemed "top secret", could not be clearer.

They're called archaeologists. College educated, certified, peer reviewed and experienced professionals that stake their reputation on finding the truth.

They are slaves to a wage like everyone else and when they stray from the preferred narrative their careers come to an end


Dr. Pat Sutherland, Curator of Arctic archaeology at "The Canadian Museum of Civilization," was abruptly FIRED from her job by Canadian Prime Minister Harper's government. Administrators in the government would rather bury real evidence by re-writing history to continue to promote the Mythical Primitive Wilderness Paradigm.
.
The willful intent of the conservative government is to BURY evidence of the first Norse settlements in North America, in favour of a "conservative friendly" version of BRITISH Colonialism. As a DIRECT result of decisions made after Dr. Sutherland published her finds "the Canadian Museum of CIVILIZATION" will even be renamed "the Canadian Museum of HISTORY".

http://myronpaine.blogspot.ie/2013/07/archaeologist-patricia-sutherland.html

ScumLord

I can't really trust anything in these links. They all have their bias in their URLs, nevermind the fantastical stories and flimsy evidence. Of course the main objective of most of these sites is to promote an author and their books.

enno99 wrote: »

They are slaves to a wage like everyone else and when they stray from the preferred narrative their careers come to an end

I don't believe for one second, that thousands and thousands of people, across hundreds of countries, and ranging from pensioners to teenagers, could possibly maintain a conspiracy like this. Science has shown that even with powerful people trying to maintain a status quo the truth can't be held back, it becomes so obvious it overpowers human social hierarchies. No one would get involved in the sciences just to perpetuate a myth, they get involved in the sciences to learn, change the world and make new discoveries, People would love for some of these things to be true but the reality of the evidence says otherwise.

Yes, governments have agendas, if their advisers are saying unpopular things the adviser get brushed under a carpet. David Nutt would be a good example but sometimes the advisers are just plain crazy.

Torakx

I think it depends on who funds society and it's intitutions.
If someone was an academic and lost their job because they questioned the status quo, I think it would be natural to try and survive by writing books and self publishing/marketing.
This isn't proof that they were right, or proof that they were wrong. Just a new idea to add to all the other theories and assumptions.

Doctors have been prescribing antibiotics for flus and chest infections for decades, when they could have been advising the use of home remedies and avoiding serious damage to peoples immune systems.
Is it a global conspiracy? Or are the doctors less educated than a layman like myself, with regards to matters of health and the immune system?
Maybe it's related to funding?

I think there is a fine line between conspiracy and inherent systems of manipulation or disinformation. The former requires someone to suspend belief all together and imagine a group of evil villans in costumes plotting with millions of other people, the latter is just common sense when looking at inherent "flaws" in the system.
They are both the same thing for me. It doesn't take a million people to pull off such a mechanic. You just need to fund the right systems of education and the robots will do the rest. It's called ego and it controls us more than we would like to believe.

ScumLord

Torakx wrote: »

I think it depends on who funds society and it's intitutions.
If someone was an academic and lost their job because they questioned the status quo, I think it would be natural to try and survive by writing books and self publishing/marketing.
This isn't proof that they were right, or proof that they were wrong. Just a new idea to add to all the other theories and assumptions.

If they have real evidence rather than theories which can't be backed up by the evidence then eventually they would be proved right but when they resort to saying every other human being studying these things is a fool or lying then their not going to gather any favour.

Doctors have been prescribing antibiotics for flus and chest infections for decades, when they could have been advising the use of home remedies and avoiding serious damage to peoples immune systems.
Is it a global conspiracy?

No, but if you talk to doctors you'll find that their patients bemand certain drugs. They may only be looking for a placebo effect but they will make demands and threats to doctors if they don't prescribe a medicine that they think will work. I've heard it from friends to, they'll go in to the doctor and basically demand a prescription. Many doctors just give in. The medicine isn't going to hurt the patient and the patient will feel better when they think their getting the medication they need.

So the blame lies with misinformed, self righteous patients that think they know better than the trained professional. I'm sure plenty of doctors do overprescribe medication but for the most part that's there only solution to problems. Try a medication and if that doesn't work send them to a specialist.

They are both the same thing for me. It doesn't take a million people to pull off such a mechanic. You just need to fund the right systems of education and the robots will do the rest. It's called ego and it controls us more than we would like to believe.

But that's not how the sciences work, they invest money to make money. They need truths or their plications of science won't give back results. You can't say archeology is all nonsense without implying every other science is nonsense too because they're all related now. A flaw or advancement made in one field, has a knock on effect in other fields.

enno99

ScumLord wrote: »

I can't really trust anything in these links. They all have their bias in their URLs, nevermind the fantastical stories and flimsy evidence. Of course the main objective of most of these sites is to promote an author and their books.

Re New Zealand story
Are you saying that the document in the link is a forgery ?

Was the archeologist not fired
https://www.google.ie/search?q=Dr.+Pat+Sutherland&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=p6lwVeypGsTR7QbKi4LIAg

Always amazed by the reaction to authors promoting their work

Its not as if they are making school kids read it year in year out as gospel as to how history unfolded

shedweller

That article about Patricia Sutherland reminded me of the site in India called Gunung Padang.
Yer man Graham Hancock is doing a lot of work at it but he met very stiff resistance there to start any work at it. Turns out it is way older than it is currently accepted to be! It also has man made features inside it when it is currently accepted to me a natural hill and couldn't have anything inside.
Yes he is doing another book and it covers this but how else is he going to fund the operation? And its something new so why not put it into a book!!?
Govt funding? Not going to work because of the status quo. Its the same everywhere i'm sure.

King Mob

shedweller wrote: »

Yes he is doing another book and it covers this but how else is he going to fund the operation? And its something new so why not put it into a book!!?
Govt funding? Not going to work because of the status quo. Its the same everywhere i'm sure.

Government funded scientists, archaeologists ad historians can't be trusted because they have a monetary interest in promoting one view over the other?

Authors like Hancock have a monetary interest in promoting their view from selling their books, but they are completely trustworthy even with the complete lack of oversight?

I've never understood this.

ScumLord

enno99 wrote: »

Re New Zealand story
Are you saying that the document in the link is a forgery ?

I don't know. You've given me a link to a site trying to promote the idea that the celts were all over the world tens of thousands of years ago, that there were civilizations in Europe 500,000 years ago during ice ages.

It's not a good source. It's trying to push a completely made up theorie.

Was the archeologist not fired
https://www.google.ie/search?q=Dr.+Pat+Sutherland&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=p6lwVeypGsTR7QbKi4LIAg

It appears she was fired. Officially for harassment but probably because she was pushing the idea that there was these catholic norse people in America somehow. The Vikings did go to America, settlements have been found but these wouldn't have been Christian it happened long before Christianity made it to the far reaches of Europe. There's no signs of them settling long term though.

They're promoting a fantasy they want to be true. Anyone that wants to prove their assumptions isn't following modern scientific methods and won't be accepted in positions of power by other scientists.

Autonomous Cowherd

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know. You've given me a link to a site trying to promote the idea that the celts were all over the world tens of thousands of years ago, that there were civilizations in Europe 500,000 years ago during ice ages.

It's not a good source. It's trying to push a completely made up theorie.

It appears she was fired. Officially for harassment but probably because she was pushing the idea that there was these catholic norse people in America somehow. The Vikings did go to America, settlements have been found but these wouldn't have been Christian it happened long before Christianity made it to the far reaches of Europe. There's no signs of them settling long term though.

They're promoting a fantasy they want to be true. Anyone that wants to prove their assumptions isn't following modern scientific methods and won't be accepted in positions of power by other scientists.

I found that whole story with Patricia Sutherland to be quite fascinating so I have been doing a bit of reading around it over the last few days. It should be noted that there are differing angles to the story. the guy (Myron) who is referenced in this thread (I think I have his name correct) is promoting a Norse catholic thesis which goes to further ideas of his about the slaughter of previously occupying white races by arriving anglo-saxon Protestants, and this causes a great sense of grievance in him. It is even further taken up by supporters or off-shoot theorists that few native people occupied the lands prior to the ''Lapena''. Dr Sutherland on the other hand is working very hard to evidence a narrow theory about the long settlement by Norse seafarers and traders on Balfin Island and possibly further south (and even down along the East coast of America). She is quite unconnected with this Norse Catholic theory and its slight weirdness (in my opinion).....that whole thing even goes into Freemason conspiracy plots etc etc. Dr. Sutherland and her husband Robert McGhee both eminent scholars and archaeologists have been very poorly treated by the state and academia for the simple reason that their thesis contradicts the acceptable prior history. I hope she manages to come through with her research.

ScumLord

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Dr. Sutherland and her husband Robert McGhee both eminent scholars and archaeologists have been very poorly treated by the state and academia for the simple reason that their thesis contradicts the acceptable prior history. I hope she manages to come through with her research.

Yeah, looking into the story she's not saying anything that's impossible, there is some evidence the vikings made it to America but to say there were settled and trading back and over with Europe is probably a step too far. It's just as likely they got marooned there thanks to the ocean currents in the area which weren't understood to the point explorers could travel back and over for a another few hundred years.

I got confused by the links which are using her finds to make more elaborate claims like one of the links saying the crucible she found was 500,000 years old.

Autonomous Cowherd

ScumLord wrote: »

Yeah, looking into the story she's not saying anything that's impossible, there is some evidence the vikings made it to America but to say there were settled and trading back and over with Europe is probably a step too far. It's just as likely they got marooned there thanks to the ocean currents in the area which weren't understood to the point explorers could travel back and over for a another few hundred years.

I got confused by the links which are using her finds to make more elaborate claims like one of the links saying the crucible she found was 500,000 years old.

I find it hard to get recent links on Sutherland's work, apart from the possibility that she is an honorary researcher at Aberdeen University and an Adjunct professor in Newfoundland. There have been some finds like marked sticks and stones that look like they may have been tally sticks for trading and the marks were analysed as containing traces from alloys known to Europe but not the Americas, which she uses to support her theory of extensive and prolonged trading with Europe and amicable settlement between the Norse and the native Dorset people. It is all very interesting. I am glad it was brought up here. I imagine it would take much more time to be conclusive one way or another. Sutherland has not been allowed access to her research at the Museum and even she says it would take many more years of research on what she had been doing to be conclusive. Interesting stuff

ScumLord

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

There have been some finds like marked sticks and stones that look like they may have been tally sticks for trading and the marks were analysed as containing traces from alloys known to Europe but not the Americas, which she uses to support her theory of extensive and prolonged trading with Europe and amicable settlement between the Norse and the native Dorset people.

They could have been trading and eventually assimilated by the local tribes which were fairly open and fair people. The empire building Europeans got a fairly warm reception from them until the Europeans started labeling them as no better than beasts and killing them.

The thing is the vikings left plenty of evidence of the places they traveled to, there are artifacts found all over scandinavia, they even found budas and metal from the middle east. So if they were doing a lot of trade with north America we should see some evidence of it here in Europe.

While viking boats were the height of naval technology at the time they weren't really equipped for spending weeks at sea, they weren't big enough to carry all the supplies needed and would have needed to hop along the coasts for resupplying. While they were fantastic seafarers it takes another level of understanding to set up a trade route with America. I can't remember the guys name but I know someone spent most of their life plotting the changing sea currents and trade winds of the atlantic and it was his work that opened up America for dependable trade, before that ships were as likely to get lost at sea, they often ended up traveling at the wrong time of year adding weeks onto their journeys as they sailed against the prevailing winds.

Autonomous Cowherd

ScumLord wrote: »

They could have been trading and eventually assimilated by the local tribes which were fairly open and fair people. The empire building Europeans got a fairly warm reception from them until the Europeans started labeling them as no better than beasts and killing them.

The thing is the vikings left plenty of evidence of the places they traveled to, there are artifacts found all over scandinavia, they even found budas and metal from the middle east. So if they were doing a lot of trade with north America we should see some evidence of it here in Europe.

While viking boats were the height of naval technology at the time they weren't really equipped for spending weeks at sea, they weren't big enough to carry all the supplies needed and would have needed to hop along the coasts for resupplying. While they were fantastic seafarers it takes another level of understanding to set up a trade route with America. I can't remember the guys name but I know someone spent most of their life plotting the changing sea currents and trade winds of the atlantic and it was his work that opened up America for dependable trade, before that ships were as likely to get lost at sea, they often ended up traveling at the wrong time of year adding weeks onto their journeys as they sailed against the prevailing winds.

Nods, ScumLord. Interesting. I simply do not know enough about this area to offer any comment on that, but I see it is relevant. All will be revealed perhaps at some future time Best Wishes.

ScumLord

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Nods, ScumLord. Interesting. I simply do not know enough about this area to offer any comment on that, but I see it is relevant. All will be revealed perhaps at some future time Best Wishes.

We should be so lucky. It may never be answered convincingly either way. It will take more advanced science to look for clues in other ways. Things like scouring the Native American population for European genes. Given the amount of natives that died as the result of the popular European invasion there may not be any evidence left to find.

If evidence of a viking settlement in North America is accepted and true, it's only evidence that vikings could get to America, it isn't evidence of an active trade route.

enno99

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know. You've given me a link to a site trying to promote the idea that the celts were all over the world tens of thousands of years ago, that there were civilizations in Europe 500,000 years ago during ice ages.

It's not a good source. It's trying to push a completely made up theorie.

It appears she was fired. Officially for harassment but probably because she was pushing the idea that there was these catholic norse people in America somehow. The Vikings did go to America, settlements have been found but these wouldn't have been Christian it happened long before Christianity made it to the far reaches of Europe. There's no signs of them settling long term though.

They're promoting a fantasy they want to be true. Anyone that wants to prove their assumptions isn't following modern scientific methods and won't be accepted in positions of power by other scientists.

There are scans of documents on the site
Do you believe the site owner forged documents to promote a book ?

So she was probably fired for straying from the preferred narrative which was my point


Government Scientists Gather To Protest Something Everybody Thought Was A “Conspiracy”

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/05/25/government-scientists-gather-to-protest-something-everybody-thought-was-a-conspiracy/

Arsemageddon

enno99 wrote: »

.

this from a few years back but interesting
You would have to wonder what is really being covered up

From what I understand of it the excavations in the Waipuoa Forest found the evidence for a society that predated the Maori arrival in New Zealand by about 500 years (the sites date to c. 950 ad). This outraged some Maori who were in the middle of a legal dispute over ownership of tribal lands in the area with the NZ government as the direct archaeological evidence contradicted many aspects of their tradition of oral history and may have negated their claim to the lands. Most of the actual excavation report was released in the mid-1990s. The 14 pages not released were the radio-carbon dates. These are usually included as an addendum to the main report and the dates are frequently referred to in the main body of the text. I've never seen the excavation report, It would be interesting to know whether the RC dates are redacted from the main body of the text.

This is probably the most clear cut case of information being suppressed to suit a political agenda(s) that has been mentioned so far in this thread. In a way I feel sorry for the fella who had to sign the order suppressing the information as I'd say he was leaned on heavily to do so and now is reputation is in tatters.

The closest parallel I can think of to this case are the frequent controversies in Israeli archaeology which are tied up with identity politics and religion. There has been a tendency among some groups funding excavations to negate the importance of Arab/Palestinian habitation deposits that are located above the lower lying Jewish habitation deposits. There was major controversy recently about excavations in east Jerusalem (the Arab part of the city) which have been interpreted as being in part motivated by the desire to delegitimise the Arab claim to that part of the city.

Similarly, some Biblical archaeologists take the same approach when trying to proof the literal truth of the bible. Every few years some fella claims to have found the Ark or the like.

Dr. Pat Sutherland, Curator of Arctic archaeology at "The Canadian Museum of Civilization," was abruptly FIRED from her job by Canadian Prime Minister Harper's government. Administrators in the government would rather bury real evidence by re-writing history to continue to promote the Mythical Primitive Wilderness Paradigm.

The willful intent of the conservative government is to BURY evidence of the first Norse settlements in North America, in favour of a "conservative friendly" version of BRITISH Colonialism. As a DIRECT result of decisions made after Dr. Sutherland published her finds "the Canadian Museum of CIVILIZATION" will even be renamed "the Canadian Museum of HISTORY".

While Pat Sutherland's excavation on Baffin Island is very interesting it is by no means an earth shattering discovery. There were Norse settlements on the western coast of Greenland up to the thirteenth century and the settlement and the Norse settlement at L'Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland is well known, so it's not a great stretch for most archaeologists to think that they were exploring up and down the coastlines of North America.

By the by Pat Sutherland was fired from the Canadian National Museum for harassing a colleague. Archaeologists aren't beyond the same employment laws that regulate other workplaces and spats in academia can sometimes become extraordinarily bitter. Her claim that she was fired as part of some kind of government conspiracy is pretty thin to say the least.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/museum-reveals-researcher-was-fired-for-harassment-after-cbc-interview/article21965542/

http://myronpaine.blogspot.ie/2013/0...utherland.html

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/

I appreciate that this is the conspiracy theories forum and is reserved for alternative theories, but those two websites are terrible examples of confirmation bias. The authors have come up with a theory and then ignored all evidence to the contrary. As mentioned by Scumlord peer-review is a vital aspect of archaeological methodology. If someone wants to have their controversial claims taken seriously then they need to be able to back up those claims with both physical evidence and coherent argument. Neither of those websites do that

They are slaves to a wage like everyone else and when they stray from the preferred narrative their careers come to an end

I'm afraid this is just not true. A good archaeologist needs to remain as objective as possible when interpreting information. There are cases cited in this thread where identity politics and personal bias comes into play, unfortunately not all archaeologists are not immune to such influence.

enno99

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I appreciate that this is the conspiracy theories forum

Exactly and both links were put forward to try establish if archeological evidence was being suppressed
And if archeologists were being penalised for making claims that dont fit in with the mainstream perspective
While not exactly on topic of history being systematically destroyed it could be another aspect of it

The sites I linked to bear no relevance to the questions

The first had scans of documents which seem to support that an archeologist wanted to cover something up for 75 yrs what they contained is immaterial

Second site contained a news story and is one of many sites whether you believe it or not

I am quite sure there are links to whistle blowers being accused of harassment to discredit them
But these will drag the thread further off topic

Arsemageddon

enno99 wrote: »

Exactly and both links were put forward to try establish if archeological evidence was being suppressed
And if archeologists were being penalised for making claims that dont fit in with the mainstream perspective
While not exactly on topic of history being systematically destroyed it could be another aspect of it

I've never heard of any archaeologist being penalised for making claims that are outside of the mainstream, it just doesn't work like that. Archaeology constantly changes our understanding and interpretation of the past. New evidence and theories are what drives the discipline.

The only caveat to the above is that in order for a theory or claim to become accepted the person making the claim has to stick to the basic methodology of the discipline. The same as in hard science cherry-picking evidence to support a hypothesis is unacceptable and the hypothesis has to be peer reviewed to gain acceptance. The two websites you quoted from are just all-over the place they are what is knwn as pseudo-archaeology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoarchaeology

The sites I linked to bear no relevance to the questions

The thread has moved on a lot from the opening post and I joined it late.

The first had scans of documents which seem to support that an archeologist wanted to cover something up for 75 yrs what they contained is immaterial

Carrying out an archaeological excavation is pointless if the results of the excavation are not published and open to per review. Therefore, the failure to publish the full report is bad practice. I first heard of the Waipuoa report being suppressed and subsequently released 20 years ago. I'd argue that the social and political reasons why the report might have been suppressed are central to any discussion on the subject.

Second site contained a news story and is one of many sites whether you believe it or not

I am quite sure there are links to whistle blowers being accused of harassment to discredit them
But these will drag the thread further off topic

I have no doubt that whistle blowers and the like are accused of all sorts of impropriety in order to discredit them. Our own penalty points scandal and the treatment of the two Gardaí at the centre of the controversy makes that point.

However, the fact of the matter is that Pat Sutherland's work on Baffin Island hasn't been suppressed. The excavation report and the subsequent specialist technical reports on the artefacts and samples recovered have been published in peer reviewed journals and for a popular readership in the National Geographic.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/gea.21497/full#gea21497-bib-0025
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/files/2012/10/Sutherland2009.pdf

I'm pretty certain that despite the fact that she no longer works for the National Museum in Canada Pat Sutherland would be employed by a university or the private sector and she'll be back up excavating and surveying in Baffin Island every chance she gets.

ScumLord

Arsemageddon wrote: »

From what I understand of it the excavations in the Waipuoa Forest found the evidence for a society that predated the Maori arrival in New Zealand by about 500 years (the sites date to c. 950 ad). This outraged some Maori who were in the middle of a legal dispute over ownership of tribal lands in the area with the NZ government as the direct archaeological evidence contradicted many aspects of their tradition of oral history and may have negated their claim to the lands.

That makes much more sense, that kind of "conspiracy" does happen, I already mentioned something similar in south Africa.