The systematic destruction of history.

Channel Zero

shedweller wrote: »

Here's a link to the vandalism i referred to at Hagar Qim in Malta:
https://communities.uhi.ac.uk/07016781/files/847/3792/UNESCO+paper.pdf
Turns out there's a quarry nearby that not only damaged Hagar Qim during its operation but is now going to be used as a landfill site!

Said 'file damaged' on that.

Was that Hancock? He has some fascinating theories on prehistoric astronomical knowledge.

studiorat

Been meaning to add to this. There is a thing called the Phantom Time Hypothesis, which states that Late Antiquity and Early Middle ages didn't actually exist.

That we're actually in the 16th or 17th century AD and the Middle ages were actually made up.

Here's similar theories : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)

I don't think it's possible to keep the same "ongoing plan" ongoing as it were for hundreds of years.

hooradiation

studiorat wrote: »

Been meaning to add to this. There is a thing called the Phantom Time Hypothesis, which states that Late Antiquity and Early Middle ages didn't actually exist.

That we're actually in the 16th or 17th century AD and the Middle ages were actually made up.

Here's similar theories : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)

That is amazing. Batshit loco, but amazing.

shedweller

Thats like something Terry Pratchett would come up with!

Wereghost

^ It is. It should also be a novel or sonething.

shedweller

Channel Zero wrote: »

Said 'file damaged' on that.

Was that Hancock? He has some fascinating theories on prehistoric astronomical knowledge.

I selected "run anyway" at the top of the screen and it loaded ok.
Yes, Graham Hancock covered a lot in his Underworld book, including Hagar Qim. But it seems that his findings don't fit in too well with conventional history.
It's like there's a problem accepting that we were a little more advanced in ancient history than some would like. What have "they" to lose?

I read another book recently that talked about the extensive use of geometry in the pyramids. This, of course, flies in the face of conventional history. But the structure is there and the angles are plain to see! And yet, they are ignored!
Its contents were looted many years ago and we can only wonder what was in it. I personally believe Khufu was not buried in it but thats another days work!
It is also simply too big to be destroyed slowly and quietly like Hagar Qim et al, so i fear for its safety given all that is going on in that neck of the woods.

If there isn't a concerted effort at keeping ancient history deleted then we must certainly have an inbuilt gene that does the same thing without our knowing it! Why cant we just record history in an unbiased manner and store it safely for as long as possible?

hooradiation

shedweller wrote: »

I read another book recently that talked about the extensive use of geometry in the pyramids. This, of course, flies in the face of conventional history. But the structure is there and the angles are plain to see! And yet, they are ignored!

I think you'll find it doesn't.
In fact the Egyptians are generally credited with being the first civilization to make extensive use of geometry - so I'm not sure what it is you think about the above "flies in the face of conventional history".

Next you'll be telling me it was all built by slave labour.

shedweller wrote: »

If there isn't a concerted effort at keeping ancient history deleted then we must certainly have an inbuilt gene that does the same thing without our knowing it! Why cant we just record history in an unbiased manner and store it safely for as long as possible?

Because humans are dicks.
There's yer answer.
You're welcome.

shedweller

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/9/43/50104/Heritage/Islamic/Istabl-Antar,-the-early-Islamic-site-in-Egypt,-is-.aspx

Istabl Antar archaeological site is on the verge of disappearing due to lack of proper protection, warns archaeologist who has spent 20 years working on the site

The site includes living quarters dating from the foundation of the city in 20 H/642 AD up to the end of the Umayyad dynasty in 132 H/750 AD and the most ancient Islamic mausolea known so far in the whole Islamic world, erected between 132 H/750 and 144-145 H/762 AD. It also contains the most ancient remains of the plan of a mosque in Egypt, and one of the most ancient of the Arab world, also constructed between 132 H/750 and 144-145 H/762 AD. (The plan of the mosque of Amr in Al-Fustat has been redrawn and reconstructed a number of times and is therefore more recent than the one of the site of Istabl Antar.)
The mausolea were reused and modified by the Fatimid family following the orders of Taghrid, the wife of the Fatimid Caliph Al-Muizz and mother of the Caliph Al-Aziz after their arrival in Egypt in 362 H/973 AD. The deceased buried in these mausolea, who will probably end up in a rubbish dump, as happened to the remains of the dead of the Ayn Al-Sîra cemetery (1991) or those of the Fatimid caliphs when Khan Al-Khalili was built in the Mamluk days.

A Primal Nut

I don't see how Cairo's museums being looted stops us from advancing in any way? I don't see the connection.

Those artifacts have histrorical significance...nothing more. I'm curious what influence they could possibly have in the advancement of mankind.

I actually think some of shedweller's points about how what we are thought about history could be wrong are interesting. But I don't see it as a conspiracy; just that history was never recorded as it went along. Perhaps until now with the birth of the internet. It's natural and to be expected that our view of history is not perfect.

shedweller

Suppose, at some point in the future, all our information was stored digitally; in the cloud. We're nearly there as it is. Now suppose something happens that information due to war breaking out and things get looted. Who knows, hard drives may be worth a lot for scrap some day!
Nobody is going to remember how, for example, a particle accelerator works. Or how to build a spaceship and go to the moon, build a car, a tv......etc.
Because some or all the data will be gone, just like data has gone throughout history.
Ok, we know things now that the ancients didn't even dream of then. But what things did they know, that ended up being destroyed? We'll never know.
I think it just keeps us from advancing and reaching our potential.
I can't help but feel there is something more sinister going on.

A Primal Nut

shedweller wrote: »

Suppose, at some point in the future, all our information was stored digitally; in the cloud. We're nearly there as it is. Now suppose something happens that information due to war breaking out and things get looted. Who knows, hard drives may be worth a lot for scrap some day!
Nobody is going to remember how, for example, a particle accelerator works. Or how to build a spaceship and go to the moon, build a car, a tv......etc.
Because some or all the data will be gone, just like data has gone throughout history.
Ok, we know things now that the ancients didn't even dream of then. But what things did they know, that ended up being destroyed? We'll never know.
I think it just keeps us from advancing and reaching our potential.
I can't help but feel there is something more sinister going on.

I doubt there is anything they could do which we can't do. Ok, we'll never be 100% sure, but as there is no evidence of use of electricity or buildings more impressive than ours (skyscrapers > pyramids IMO) I very much doubt there is anything we can learn from them.

Anyway, there is plenty of technological progress still going on so if governments are trying to stop progress (why?) they are failing miserably.

Torakx

Back when i first got into the whole Aliens and Egypt etc there was some interestign theories on vibrations with anti gravity,healing and also some other basic stuff on how they made batteries backthen.

I am still waiting to see vibrational therapy go mainstream and i dont mean dildos :P
I think their might be something to it considering how we are formed at a quantum level.

Edit: I stumbed across this video today and thought of this thread.
Maybe a load of balls but id be interested in thoughts and if this might be another example of the thread topic.

Its pretty outrageous if its true and so im doubting its legitimacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ

shedweller

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I doubt there is anything they could do which we can't do. Ok, we'll never be 100% sure, but as there is no evidence of use of electricity or buildings more impressive than ours (skyscrapers > pyramids IMO) I very much doubt there is anything we can learn from them.

Anyway, there is plenty of technological progress still going on so if governments are trying to stop progress (why?) they are failing miserably.

Aye, it's a tricky subject alright. Fraught with risk of getting bogged down in tin foil hat territory or godlike stuff.
Re; the pyramids. They did build them very accurately for their time and i do find it laughable when we are shown some of the tools they supposedly used. Like their spirit level. LOL!! The main pyramid at Giza has a 13 acre base and is extremely accurate. A wooden triangle with a plumb bob in the middle wouldnt in a million years deliver that kind of accuracy!

shedweller

Some more:http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/syrias-archaeological-heritage-falls-prey-to-war.aspx?pageID=238&nID=30846&NewsCatID=375

Syria's extraordinary archaeological heritage has fallen prey to the fighting ravaging the country for more than 18 months, with destruction, theft and systematic looting on the rise.

In a country where corruption and trafficking of archaeological artefacts and treasures was already a chronic problem, widespread clashes and a power vacuum in some areas have led to an explosion of looting and illicit excavations.

"It is obvious that in such situations there is always an increase in looting, illegal excavations and smuggling," Veronique Dauge of the UNESCO World Heritage Centre told AFP by telephone.

"Remember what happened in Iraq in 2003." Around 32,000 artefacts were looted from 12,000 archaeological sites in Iraq during the chaos that followed the US-led invasion in 2003, and 15,000 items were also looted from the Baghdad National Museum.

The Syrian army has often been accused of participating in the pillaging or tolerating such actions by civilians -- often in well organised trafficking bands.

In Reyhanli, a small Turkish village near the border with Syria, a newly arrived Syrian refugee from the famed ancient desert town of Palmyra told AFP that the museum there had been looted and reported large-scale theft at the site.

"These are the shabiha, the Assad gangs (militiamen) who do this," charged Abu Jabal, giving a fictitious name. "The army is there, and oversees everything." An amateur video posted online on August 17 shows seven or eight sculptures and busts crammed into the back of a pick-up truck. Soldiers can be seen chatting alongside the vehicle.

"We have studied what our Syrian colleagues are saying, and it is indeed soldiers. Everything leads us to believe that the army is stealing antiquities in Palmyra and elsewhere," Spanish archaeologist Rodrigo Martin told AFP.

He is the spokesman for a team of archaeologists, Syrian and foreign, who formed the "Syrian Heritage in Danger" group, whose goal is to monitor what happens at archaeological sites, through a network of informants.

"Some sites have been the scene of fighting, others have been looted, and the military has given digging permits to gangs in exchange for their complicity in the conflict," Martin added.

"But even if we have many contacts, it is difficult to know what is really going on. We will discover the extent of the damage after the war." His organisation has also received testimonies accusing rebel groups of resorting to smuggling in order to finance themselves. "We hear rumours, but it is very difficult to verify these," he said.

On September 12, The Times in London published an article in which a Lebanese antiquities dealer said insurgents had assembled groups of clandestine diggers to recover antiquities to finance their uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.

"The rebels need arms and the antiquities are a good way to buy them," Abu Khaled was quoted as saying in the article.

In a report entitled "The Syrian archaeological heritage is in danger," the EU-funded Euromed Heritage organisation emphasises the danger currently posed to Syria's rich heritage by secret excavations.

"Clandestine excavations have posed a threat to Syrian history and heritage for many years. Unfortunately, current events have significantly increased this risk. Many groups have attempted to conduct secret excavations, starting with the security forces," the report said.

"The clandestine excavations have become objects of negotiation: they are tolerated by the authorities to anyone who agrees to stay away from the uprising or denounces activists." For British archaeologist Emma Cunliffe, another specialist on Syria, what happened in 2003 in Iraq is now being repeated.

"Look at the prices of nice antiquities at auction at Christie's or Sotheby's: it's ridiculous! As long as there is this kind of demand on the international market, the looting will continue."

And with more war on the way in that general region i can see more of this happening.

enno99

‘Destroy the idols,’ Egyptian jihadist calls for removal of Sphinx, Pyramids

An Egyptian jihad leader, with self-professed links to the Taliban, called for the “destruction of the Sphinx and the Giza Pyramids in Egypt,” drawing ties between the Egyptian relics and Buddha statues, local media reported this week.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/12/249092.html

Madness :eek:

shedweller

The mind just boggles. This kind of thing just might be what tips people in favour of all out war against these lunatics.

And my favourite comment on the above link has to be this:

2 - pretty sure these buildings are NOT idols
dan p (Guest) 04:07pm GMT, 07:07pm KSA, 12/11/2012
despite the fact that I don't believe we actually truly know the function of the pyramids (the great pyramids were not tombs), one thing we know for sure, they are not idols.... dummy.

So true! But i doubt Murgan Salem al-Gohary is going to let that get in his way!

enno99

shedweller wrote: »

The mind just boggles. This kind of thing just might be what tips people in favour of all out war against these lunatics.




:

Thats what I dont get why would Egyptian's want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg in regards to tourism
If you destroyed these you would bring the wrath of the whole planet down on you

cant find much on him other than this is he a mouth piece that just wants notice ?
or an asset for some spook agency

Monty Burnz

It's a conspiracy to make lunatic Muslim fundamentalists look like lunatics. I suspect they themselves are behind this conspiracy.

Sacksian

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's a conspiracy to make lunatic Muslim fundamentalists look like lunatics. I suspect they themselves are behind this conspiracy.

Lots of articles recently about state-backed Saudi construction in Medina and Mecca and the demolition of historical sites:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/medina-saudis-take-a-bulldozer-to-islams-history-8228795.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2012/oct/23/mecca-architecture-hajj1

Although these policies are pretty consistent with the spirit of Saudi Wahhabism and its stance on idolatory.

shedweller

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know what you mean. Maybe it's more a case that we'll forget our past. Forgetting our past can lead to us making the same mistakes again, or simply forgetting, say, a novel medical method. Or a way of building something with a 13 acre base thats more accurately built than almost everything today! ***cough***pyramids***cough***

Anyway, another example of the deletion of our past:

http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-3743-peru-heavy-machinery-destroys-nazca-lines/

A group of ancient lines in the archaeological zone of Buenos Aires, in Nazca, have been destroyed by heavy machinery, El Comercio reported.

According to the daily, the machinery belongs to a firm that is removing limestone from the area.

The lines are located near kilometer marker 444 of the Panamericana Sur Highway. The area adjacent to the lines have reportedly also been affected, due to land being removed from the area.

shedweller

Holy thread ressurection, batman!!

So isis are going around wrecking the place. The destruction of history goes on and couldn't be any more blatant!

degrassinoel

shedweller wrote: »

Holy thread ressurection, batman!!

So isis are going around wrecking the place. The destruction of history goes on and couldn't be any more blatant!

Valid reason for the necro, it's fine.

I was disgusted by that news too.

Daithi 1

For anyone interested, this is a fascinating interview where Carlson presents a pretty convincing case that our history could have been completely wiped out many times in the past. That we could have been much more evolved many times before than we are now and could have reached the moon and beyond many times. It really is worth a listen imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Cp7DrvNLQ

enno99

That was a good interview Im going to watch the other one he done

I guess that civilization goes back a lot farther than we thought is a not a masonic secret

Autonomous Cowherd

I like the Fomenko stuff...have been reading about for a while

When one looks at the daily newspapers I think it's easy enough to see that ''history'' is constructed constantly according to the most powerful interests. Alternative news (in so far as they could be said to constitute history records) is confined generally to online libraries and can be wiped or made obsolete very easily. Paper record will endure at least somewhat, and the history being written by mainstream media will be the official line.

My thoughts on it is that history and archaeology is an art form rather than an empirical science, though historians and especially archaeologists would emphatically disagree. Essentially, in my opinion, people ''interpret'' the data, and this interpretation is according to their expectations and conditioning (education, cultural beliefs, desire to remain in a job, etc). I think we have very little idea of what is the truth of the past.

Ipso

The destruction of facts is as sad as destruction of history.

shedweller

Ipso wrote: »

The destruction of facts is as sad as destruction of history.

Very much so.

Overheal

Do people, factions, nations, and groups routinely cull things they don't like and cultivate things they do like? Absolutely. All throughout history and probably beforehand. Look at eugenics. Look at the womanist movement previously mentioned. Multiple crusades. But one global shadowy organization stopping humanity from excelling as a species? Very doubtful. If there really was some elite organization in control of everything, they surely would recognize that they only hurt themselves by stunting humanity's development. Why? Well simply put, the risk of extra-terrestrial life. If a superior species encountered humans and found a bunch of under-developed nobodies, that could very well spell the end of the human race. There is nothing to truly gain from stunting humanity.

For anyone interested, this is a fascinating interview where Carlson presents a pretty convincing case that our history could have been completely wiped out many times in the past. That we could have been much more evolved many times before than we are now and could have reached the moon and beyond many times. It really is worth a listen imo.

That reminds me of how the BSG series ended. In that case though humans wanted that fresh start, feeling that they had lost their way too much.

Torakx

I am not so sure that what seems like a bad mechanic(the withholding and dissolution of knowledge and history), is actually seen as bad for some people.
It depends on the motives involved.
If a person was part of a secretive, powerful group, that had all the knowledge and history hoarded for themselves, they might start to feel they had a right to control the human race and it's destiny.

Imagine being stranded on an island as a modern person, alongside a small group of primitive randomers.
Would it be better to teach them everything you know in one go? Or direct everyone to get a camp set up properly and to collect food and fuel?

If there is an "illuminatti" of some kind. They may have the attitude that they will choose who has access to knowledge and power. They will choose who gains responsibility in this Island camp, because they know best..

It would be wise at the latter stage to proxy the coordination efforts, through delegation. Giving knowledge only to the areas needed, when it's needed and through a controlled medium (colleges).
This allows for recruitment(Fraternaties for power/management, corporations for workers) and an upgrading of the system, or the hive as this island group has turned out to be now. But also an element of control.
The group needs your knowledge and guidance for their own benefit, in gathering resources and improving their environment.
It might be safer now, to hold back on teaching how to build a rifle(that could alsobe used against you), at least until you can maintain control(for the greater good of course ).

Maybe "They" are also thinking about alien life forms, although the chances of us running into anything that can travel far distances, is pretty rare I would guess. Considering time(entropy etc) and the amount of space to travel.
There could be loads of life forms, at or below our level of intelligence. But maybe not within our reach just yet.

Which brings me back to control for the sake of existing longer.
If a group, cult or religion had this ideaology, they would start to feel apart. Having to plan for the unseen people, helps to seperate oneself from the "persons" controlled.
Much like the idea of having goyem I suppose or cattle, sheep etc.
Maybe then, what was first a moral action under distress(organising the survival of the islanders), soon develops into an immoral action under distress(distress maybe being the fear of losing control, the fear of chaos and death).
One immoral action might be culling the herd, for the perceived benefit of the "system" and it's management capabilities. Throwing away the bad seeds and keeping the strongest, requires a certain amount of friction and culling, to create the strongest.
The goal could even be forgotten at this stage, if the proxy method breaks down at the top or becomes ineffective. So a self affirming medium is required to motivate the herd towards immediate progress. For that we can probably point to the monetary system and it's inflationary mechanics.
For these reasons, it would make sense to stunt humanities growth. It maintains control of the system, holding reserves(knowledge/power) for keeping control.
Overall, I can see how and why this might come about. But to prove it or investigate it fully, is pretty much impossible for most I think.
There are places you just cannot get access to for certain knowledge.

Hmmm.. the systematic destruction of history, now seems a very apt thread title lol

shedweller

I'm digging the "I'm a (whatever) get me out of here!" line. Certainly possible!