Sinn Fein appealing to the lowest common denominator

Fenian Army

Fenian Army wrote: »

"underclass" says it all :rolleyes:

Also the thread title sets the tone, hence why I have not posted in this thread yet.

smash

Morlar wrote: »

You and I have a significantly different assessment of this thread.

then you didn't read the OP properly because I started the thread to discuss how they target certain people of a certain demographic.

Morlar wrote: »

Did you really make the mistake of thinking those two things are exactly and always the same ? Or are you simply disingenous ?

Just trying the same tactics as you SF guys. See how annoying it can be?

the_syco

Varied wrote: »

Again, shouting this absoloute ****e without backing it up is really pointless.

The Americans like stability. If we were to be controlled by a group that has recent ties to a terrorist group that wanted to increase the tax of foreign companies, I'd say a few American based companies such as Intel, HP, IBM, etc, would leave very quickly, putting even more people on the dole. As the rich would be taxed, most of them would leave with above American companies, and SF would have to increase taxes for everyone to survive.

Protestant behind enemy lines wrote: »

Looking to live amongst Protestants though. You know a good area which has a strong population of Protestants?

Look at a few communities along the pale, just outside Dublin, that have "large house" that were owned by the protestant ruling class, and work houses run by protestants who usually had a policy of converting the locals to their religion before feeding them.
But most (99% I'd say0 don't really care about politics up north, as they seem themselves of Southern Irish, and not someone in exile.

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Don't the current government also want to tax people more?

Yes, and they're admitting to it. SF don't want to tax anyone, wants to tax a large base of workers less, but doesn't really say how they'll tax the rest.

My name is URL wrote: »

Even in 2010, when FF were selling us all down the river, while FG and Labor only huffed & puffed from the sidelines, SF were the only ones to be bothered with coming up with what they seen as an alternative to where we were headed.

FF does something.
FG & Labour; this is bad, but here's a working alternative.
SF; that's bad, here's what you should do, but we won't tell you how this can be actually achieved.

SF had a few good ideas, but they always disappeared when it came to actually explaining how these great ideas could be achieved realistically.

Ghandee wrote: »

May I also remind you that if it were not for Mountbattens relatives, and Govt's occupation of our country his death would not have occurred.

I don't condone his death btw, very much the opposite.

He lived as a warrior, he died as a warrior. Sh|t happens, and then the bomb goes off :pac:

I've said it many times; what SF has done, and continues to do up the North is great, but they can't do the same down here (they do the complete opposite, it seems). I wonder what would happen if the UK & Ireland stopped giving the North millions each year? Would SF's policies still be as effective?

Protestant behind enemy lines wrote: »

The righteous Protestants.

But there's no jobs there. Why else would you be down here in the glorious fatherland (Athartha)?

PC CDROM

smash wrote: »

Clutching at straws about what? The thread was started to discuss how they target people of a certain demographic and so far the SF supporters have not been able to prove otherwise and instead are the ones bringing it off topic in a very SF manner.

wait... political party target desired demographic for political gain? SHOCKER!??


Do you not understand basic politics or something?

Why would people try and "prove otherwise" when what you are saying is correct?

HavingCrack

Fenian Army wrote: »

"underclass" says it all :rolleyes:

Must have imagined the SDLP getting hammered in elections so.

Do you deny there's an 'underclass' in Ireland? Most people would agree there that there is. I know several people I went to school with who've never done a day's work in their lives and live off state benefits.

Ah, so now we come to it. The Northern Irish political landscape is completely different to here as I pointed out in another thread so comparing the SDLP's experiences in Northern Ireland is pointless. I can guarantee Sinn Fein will never be elected in somewhere like Dun Laoghaire in an election any time in the near future.

Crooked Jack

HavingCrack wrote: »

What middle class seat have Sinn Fein won? None as far as I am aware.

Social class is about far more than just financial wealth as you well know. Furthermore the term working class has been hijacked by the 'underclass' in Ireland to a large extent.



Where does the money to fund education, health care, social inclusion etc. come from? Oh yes, money. Sinn Fein still haven't explained where the money to fund all this is going to come from apart from sound bites about taxing the 'rich' (anyone above minimum wage level in Sinn Fein speak). Hence it's economics.

Again. I never said the economy doesnt matter, I said it is not the only issue.

humanji

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Also the thread title sets the tone, hence why I have not posted in this thread yet.

Wait, then how am I reading this?

Oh, I knew I should have taken the blue pill.

Morlar

smash wrote: »

Just trying the same tactics as you ...

No, you are really not.

smash

PC CDROM wrote: »

wait... political party target desired demographic for political gain? SHOCKER!??

That's all well and good but their desired demographic mostly consists of people from council areas, or who are less educated or are long term unemployed. The point is that they prey on the weak.

PC CDROM wrote: »

Why would people try and "prove otherwise" when what you are saying is correct?

They're denying that it is correct.

swimming in a sea

Crooked Jack wrote: »

There is a new generation of voters coming through who are judging parties on their policies and their actions, not the prejudices they were brought up with.
Better change your tune.

Who are these new generations of SF voters? I've been hearing this for years. SF can't still break 10%, are you now all getting excited by the polls, well there is big difference between polls and elections.
SF to get your election and poll percentage to match you'll have put a voting boot in every methadone clinic and needle exchange in Dublin.

Sleepy

Crooked Jack wrote: »

All Sinn Fein members, from the party leader to the guy who drives his car, earn the average industrial wage. Dunno what his income from the books would be but I doubt it runs into the millions

That's factually incorrect but popular Sinn Fein propoganda.

Mr Adams (and the other Sinn Fein TD's) earn the same basic salary as any other TD of €92,672. He also receives various expenses and allowances, much of which is unvouched or simply paid pro-rata.

While they apparently donate most of this to the Sinn Fein political party, it's incorrect to state they earn the same as other members and while they may be taking home the same amount after tax they'd be on the books as having earned (and paid tax on) a far higher salary.

It's his own business what he does with his salary (though I have wondered how this is allowed under political donations rules since the amount contributed to the party each year would surely exceed the threshold for personal donation?).

Nodin

smash wrote: »

That's all well and good but their desired demographic mostly consists of people from council areas, or who are less educated or are long term unemployed. The point is that they prey on the weak.


They're denying that it is correct.

...people from council areas are "weak" - again? No, thats not elitist in the slightest. Not at all, at all, at all.

Crooked Jack

K-9 wrote: »

So nearly 400 posts in still no detail on their economic plans, just slogans and populist rhetoric.

Sinn Fein's economic plans are not the purpose of this thread.
It has also been pointed out several times that you can get all their economic plans and policies on their website.

smash

Nodin wrote: »

...people from council areas are "weak" - again? No, thats not elitist in the slightest. Not at all, at all, at all.

Not all of them but I'm just stating the demographic of people they target. And as a demographic they would be considered weak in society.

If you were to create a chart of various demographics do you think that council areas would be on the lower end of the scale regarding wealth, employment, education? And on the higher end of the scale regarding anti social behaviour and state benefit claims?

P.C.

Morlar wrote: »

smash wrote: »

Clutching at straws about what? The thread was started to discuss how they target people of a certain demographic and so far the SF supporters have not been able to prove otherwise and instead are the ones bringing it off topic in a very SF manner.

You and I have a significantly different assessment of this thread.

smash wrote: »

You're suggesting that people who don't support SF are all Elitist?

That's clearly not what I said.

What I said was related to the content of much of the 'anti-SF' posts on this thread.

That is clearly not the same thing as 'ALL People who don't support SF'.

Did you really make the mistake of thinking those two things are exactly and always the same ? Or are you simply disingenous ?

Twist words much.

I went back and reread your post. You did not mention this thread.
So, you did say that anti SF sentiment is elitist.

Sleepy

Nodin wrote: »

...people from council areas are "weak" - again? No, thats not elitist in the slightest. Not at all, at all, at all.

Demographically speaking it's correct. There will be individuals that break the demographic mould (I know plenty of high-earning college graduates that come from council estates) but as a demographic those from council estates are poorly educated, poorly skilled and have higher rates of unemployment and drawing of welfare.

Sounds exactly like the demographic that your elected representatives describe as "weak", "marginalised" and "most vulnerable" to me tbh.

You can speak of things at a demographic level, it's when you assume someone's membership of that demographic makes the democraphic generalisations true about the individual that one becomes unacceptable.

Crooked Jack

Sleepy wrote: »

That's factually incorrect but popular Sinn Fein propoganda.

Mr Adams (and the other Sinn Fein TD's) earn the same basic salary as any other TD of €92,672. He also receives various expenses and allowances, much of which is unvouched or simply paid pro-rata.

While they apparently donate most of this to the Sinn Fein political party, it's incorrect to state they earn the same as other members and while they may be taking home the same amount after tax they'd be on the books as having earned (and paid tax on) a far higher salary.

It's his own business what he does with his salary (though I have wondered how this is allowed under political donations rules since the amount contributed to the party each year would surely exceed the threshold for personal donation?).

Fair enough then. All Sinn Fein members "take home," the average industrial wage. Whatever difference that makes to the argument about wether or not he is a personally millionaire. Whatever that argument has to do with the topic at hand anyway.

Nodin

smash wrote: »

Not all of them but I'm just stating the demographic of people they target. And as a demographic they would be considered weak in society.

If you were to create a chart of various demographics do you think that council areas would be on the lower end of the scale regarding wealth, employment, education? And on the higher end of the scale regarding anti social behaviour and state benefit claims?

You reject the term vulnerable, but have no problem with "weak"......
I think you're trying to intellectualise your own fear and snobbery at this stage.

smash

Sleepy wrote: »

You can speak of things at a demographic level, it's when you assume someone's membership of that demographic makes the democraphic generalisations true about the individual that one becomes unacceptable.

I made no assumption, I'm talking about their general target demographic. And have always said that not everyone in these target areas fall into their target.

Nodin wrote: »

You reject the term vulnerable, but have no problem with "weak"......

Because most are not vulnerable. They get great benefits! They can still be classed as part of the weak demographic though.

Nodin wrote: »

I think you're trying to intellectualise your own fear and snobbery at this stage.

Fear of what exactly?

Morlar

P.C. wrote: »

Twist words much.

I went back and reread your post. You did not mention this thread.
So, you did say that anti SF sentiment is elitist.

Here is what I said :

Morlar wrote: »

It's clear that you and the rest of the 'anti-SF' crowd are clutching at straws as you have been for most of this thread.

Sometimes amusingly but more often it's just revealing in terms of the elitist & condescending tone of much of the criticism (which btw tends to be directed not so much at the party but often against caricatures of their supporters).

Crooked Jack

swimming in a sea wrote: »

They've never answered it, they never answer anything when it comes to economy, if you are an SF supporter maybe you can answer it.

Where would NI get the money to pay for itself without the Westminster handout?????

Eh, yes they do, they always answer questions on the economy. I've seen this tactic in several TV interviews in the run up to any election. They ask SF a question, SF answers it and then they start harping on about not answering the question anyway.

Regarding the north paying for itself, setting aside that you've just brought that up out of the blue, as I said earlier, SF's There Is A Better Way document highlighted almost £2bn in savings that could be made with cuts that dont affect frontline services or low income families coupled with fat trimming and the restructuring of government bodies and departments.

I would also point out that while SF are pushing for fiscal responsibility for the north so that they can undo the damage of the Tory government, their goal is not a self sufficient north.
It is a united Ireland. So really we should be asking how can a united Ireland be afforded. SF have put many proposals forward for that, for example their Uniting Ireland Green paper, but they are also one of the few parties prepared to admit that they do not have all the answers.
They have consistently called for the SDLP, FF, LAB and FG to produce their own green papers so that every party supposedly in favour of unity can put their proposals forward and together come up with a real, workable plan.

P.C.

Here is what you said.

Morlar wrote: »

Sometimes amusingly but more often it's just revealing in terms of the elitist & condescending tone of much of the criticism (which btw tends to be directed not so much at the party but often against caricatures of their supporters).

[/Quote]

If you think I am taking what you said out of context, then have a look at some SF flyers and leaflets.

swimming in a sea

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Eh, yes they do, they always answer questions on the economy. I've seen this tactic in several TV interviews in the run up to any election. They ask SF a question, SF answers it and then they start harping on about not answering the question anyway.

Regarding the north paying for itself, setting aside that you've just brought that up out of the blue, as I said earlier, SF's There Is A Better Way document highlighted almost £2bn in savings that could be made with cuts that dont affect frontline services or low income families coupled with fat trimming and the restructuring of government bodies and departments.

I would also point out that while SF are pushing for fiscal responsibility for the north so that they can undo the damage of the Tory government, their goal is not a self sufficient north.
It is a united Ireland. So really we should be asking how can a united Ireland be afforded. SF have put many proposals forward for that, for example their Uniting Ireland Green paper, but they are also one of the few parties prepared to admit that they do not have all the answers.
They have consistently called for the SDLP, FF, LAB and FG to produce their own green papers so that every party supposedly in favour of unity can put their proposals forward and together come up with a real, workable plan.

first off the thing about the NI budget was brought up by someone else who i was agreeing with and then you came in with your own comment, so follow back the comments and you'll find I did not bring it out of the blue.

Oh SF always tomorrow with them, let them run NI first before thinking of a united Ireland. So SF can save 2billion in NI well I hope Westminster listens up and cuts 2billion of the block grant. :rolleyes:

srsly78

They save loads of money by not blowing stuff up right? :P

Morlar

P.C. wrote: »

Here is what you said.

....

If you think I am taking what you said out of context, then have a look at some SF flyers and leaflets.

To clarify -

You have removed the line preceding that where I speficically mentioned This thread & you now imply that I was not referring to this thread at all ?

Is that it in a nutshell?

Crooked Jack

swimming in a sea wrote: »

first off the thing about the NI budget was brought up by someone else who i was agreeing with and then you came in with your own comment, so follow back the comments and you'll find I did not bring it out of the blue.

Oh SF always tomorrow with them, let them run NI first before thinking of a united Ireland. So SF can save 2billion in NI well I hope Westminster listens up and cuts 2billion of the block grant. :rolleyes:

They probably would, which is why SF want fiscal autonomy.

That was the first time you'd brought up the northern economy with me.

Once again we see the typical anti-SF attitude. You asked a question, sure in the knowledge that a Sinn Fein supporting lowlife couldnt answer it, and when they did instead of providing a retort you brush it aside with some patronising dismissive comment and rummage around in your bag for the next thing to throw.
That was a childish comment at the end as well.

K-9

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Sinn Fein's economic plans are not the purpose of this thread.
It has also been pointed out several times that you can get all their economic plans and policies on their website.

I'd have thought it was relevant, moreso than the Troubles anyway but I'm used to the deflection, anything to avoid actually putting substance to the slogans.

Crooked Jack

K-9 wrote: »

I'd have thought it was relevant, moreso than the Troubles anyway but I'm used to the deflection, anything to avoid actually putting substance to the slogans.

How has anyone avoided putting "substance to the slogans?" Several people have been directed several times to the Sinn Fein website for a a comprehensive run down of their economic policies.
The only deflection here is being done by yourself

shootermacg

A lot of people will take anything over the gutless me feiner career politicians we've been putting up with. There are currently no ideals in politics in ireland, profit drives these chancers. I for one would vote sinn fein just to see what happens. I cannot stress enough how sick I am of where we are, how we got there, the crooks that got us here and the crooks that are making things worse. The straw that broke the camels back is NAMA taking 2 billion and trying to kick-start the building industry all over again!

swimming in a sea

shootermacg wrote: »

A lot of people will take anything over the gutless me feiner career politicians we've been putting up with. There are currently no ideals in politics in ireland, profit drives these chancers. I for one would vote sinn fein just to see what happens. I cannot stress enough how sick I am of where we are, how we got there, the crooks that got us here and the crooks that are making things worse. The straw that broke the camels back is NAMA taking 2 billion and trying to kick-start the building industry all over again!

Well I'm sure xerox, hp and anyone else who makes printer catridges would like to see happen too, their profits will go through the roof.:D