Sinn Fein appealing to the lowest common denominator

Sleepy

Crooked Jack wrote: »

wait. So killing people in 1920 is somehow different from or better than killing people in 1970? How? What a load of nonsense. Unless you vote Greens practically every party on this island has its origins in violence.

As far I can remember from the history I've read, Collins and DeValera tended to target soldiers rather than innocent civilians. There's also the small matter of the foundation of the Irish state in the meantime, though maybe you're part of the Republican movement that doesn't recognise the government Sinn Fein wish to play a part in these days?

swimming in a sea

Climber wrote: »

The North spends more than it raises in taxes.

Instead of borrowing to fund the difference, the tax payers of Britain fund the difference.

This is a well known fact and when it is put to any Shinner they tend to be a little sheepish in their responses.

When this is put to them before I've heard them say they don't have tax raising powers, as if this would make a difference. Unless they would introduce a knee cap tax, a yearly £100 tax to keep your knee caps in place. That would raise a few pound.

Crooked Jack

Ruralyoke wrote: »

So, just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming that SF in Northern Ireland did not approve of cuts (which include education) to the tune of £4 billion?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sam-smyth-sfs-policy-is-hypocrisy-on-both-sides-of-border-3107921.html

http://www.johnomahony.ie/?p=1799

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/sinn-fein-is-closing-scho/index.xml

That's exactly what I'm saying. The block grant comes in from Westminster and Stormont has no control over how much it is. So if cameron says "you get £4bn less," how is that Sinn Fein's fault.
Stormont's Finance dept decide how it is divvied up but that is currently in the hands of the DUP.
When the north gains fiscal autonomy then you can begin to compare Sinn Fein's policies and actions north and south. As I said, until then it's either disingenuous or ignorant.
Nice sources by the way, two Fine Gael websites and an Indo opinion piece.

donvito99

Did anyone else see SF's party-political broadcast last night? BBC2 I think.



My favourite part was when Martin Mc Guinness' eyes were darting from one side of the card behind the camera he was reading to the other.

Crooked Jack

swimming in a sea wrote: »

When this is put to them before I've heard them say they don't have tax raising powers, as if this would make a difference. Unless they would introduce a knee cap tax, a yearly £100 tax to keep your knee caps in place. That would raise a few pound.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.... typical reaction of the anti SF crowd, people who will always be anti-Sinn Fein no matter what they say or do.
Ask a question, Sinn Fein answers it, they dont get the response they wanted so they resort to this tiresome kneecap/bombing/shooting schtick.
How much longer do you think that stuff is going to work for. There is a new generation of voters coming through who are judging parties on their policies and their actions, not the prejudices they were brought up with.
Better change your tune.

Ruralyoke

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying. The block grant comes in from Westminster and Stormont has no control over how much it is. So if cameron says "you get £4bn less," how is that Sinn Fein's fault.

Approve is the operative word here. Approve.

I am well aware that Stormonts hands are tied in many ways but when and where were SF up in arms about this then? Never heard a peep out of them. Their approval was required and was seemingly easily given.

Nice sources by the way, two Fine Gael websites and an Indo opinion piece.

Knew you'd say that of course - random search results. There are dozens, scores of others. You can check yourself.

I guess all these sites/journalists had better watch out then eh?

SF will be giving out stink about all that disingenuous commentary won't they?

...won't they?

Oh. Hasn't really happened though has it. Why is that? :rolleyes:

Happy Monday

Ruralyoke wrote: »

So, just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming that SF in Northern Ireland did not approve of cuts (which include education) to the tune of £4 billion?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sam-smyth-sfs-policy-is-hypocrisy-on-both-sides-of-border-3107921.html

http://www.johnomahony.ie/?p=1799

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/sinn-fein-is-closing-scho/index.xml

You are missing the point.
The UK government calls the shots in NI.
The Irish government calls the shots down here.
FG has the power to raise taxes and cut spending.
SF does not. The Unionists do not.

Crooked Jack

Sleepy wrote: »

As far I can remember from the history I've read, Collins and DeValera tended to target soldiers rather than innocent civilians. There's also the small matter of the foundation of the Irish state in the meantime, though maybe you're part of the Republican movement that doesn't recognise the government Sinn Fein wish to play a part in these days?

Yup, the same soldiers the PIRA targeted. You're also living in an FF/FG fantasy land if you think no civilians were killed by the IRA in 1919-1921.
It's high time somebody challenged this notion that the "old" IRA were a group of pacifists who nobly fought the british off with rebel songs and pillows.
War is brutal, gruesome and horrific, wether it happened 10 years ago or 100 so to try and justify 1919 on one hand and condemn the PIRA on the other is just rank hypocrisy.
I dont see what part the foundation of the Free State plays when comparing the "old" IRA and PIRA.
Both were born into an enemy state that was illegally occupying Irish territory and they fought it.

MagicSean

Crooked Jack wrote: »

ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.... typical reaction of the anti SF crowd, people who will always be anti-Sinn Fein no matter what they say or do.
Ask a question, Sinn Fein answers it, they dont get the response they wanted so they resort to this tiresome kneecap/bombing/shooting schtick.
How much longer do you think that stuff is going to work for. There is a new generation of voters coming through who are judging parties on their policies and their actions, not the prejudices they were brought up with.
Better change your tune.

Yes i can see their actions now. "We condem the killing of this Garda. Oh **** that reminds me, I have to pick his killer up from court."

You want something more recent? How about the recent issue of trying using snippets of pro treaty speaches to support their no campaign. That's pretty untrustworthy.

Ruralyoke

Happy Monday wrote: »

You are missing the point.
The UK government calls the shots in NI.
The Irish government calls the shots down here.
FG has the power to raise taxes and cut spending.
SF does not. The Unionists do not.

I understand. But my point is that SF didn't object. They just went with it. Tacit approval.

Fenian Army

The comments about SF in power in the North are disingenuous. Firstly its a forced coalition with the DUP. There is no economic control, they get a kitty from the Brits. So what can they do?

When the assembly gets fiscal control and the ability to change taxes etc I'd expect greater change. As it is I think they have done a good job in difficult circumstances working with some of the most intransigent people the world has ever seen.

In the six counties they don't have the options that the govt in the 26 do.

And dont start the "good old IRA" nonsense. People need to cop on and realise that war is brutal and the "old" IRA was every bit as ruthless as the provos were.

Fenian Army

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes i can see their actions now. "We condem the killing of this Garda. Oh **** that reminds me, I have to pick his killer up from court."

You want something more recent? How about the recent issue of trying using snippets of pro treaty speaches to support their no campaign. That's pretty untrustworthy.

If people like you had their way the troubles would still be ongoing.Those who know the craic know why it was necessary to collect them for jail and show some support and/or solidarity.

Fenian Army

Happy Monday wrote: »

Why has he been banned?
Jean McConville was murdered by SF types.
A lot of evidence to suggest that Adams ordered the murder.

Can I see this evidence please?


If Gerry was interested in cash he could have been a millionaire by now just by suing for defamation

Crooked Jack

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Approve is the operative word here. Approve.

I am well aware that Stormonts hands are tied in many ways but when and where were SF up in arms about this then? Never heard a peep out of them. Their approval was required and was seemingly easily given.



Knew you'd say that of course - random search results. There are dozens, scores of others. You can check yourself.

I guess all these sites/journalists had better watch out then eh?

SF will be giving out stink about all that disingenuous commentary won't they?

...won't they?

Oh. Hasn't really happened though has it. Why is that? :rolleyes:

You must listen to no northern news whatsoever.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8649679.stm

http://www.u.tv/News/SF-calls-for-Stormont-pay-cut/425f7f51-83b7-48d9-af4d-be985a8a6abe

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/the-fight-against-tory-cuts-continues-sf-mla-1-3376040

http://www.westbelfastsinnfein.com/news/18993

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/paterson-sinn-fein-cuts-protest-childish-and-pathetic-15008108.html


Thats a very very small example of the level of opposition that was put up during the last budget discussions. Not a peep, eh?

In regards to your sources I was merely pointing out that you specifically went looking for "Sinn Fein hypocrisy," no doubt that's what you typed into google, so of course you found it on the website of an opposing party and an anti-republican mouthpiece.

srsly78

I will never vote for Sinn Fein. Not because of the whole terrorist thing, but because they are fscking Marxists :pac: Sure they have been playing down this angle lately, but once they get into power -> BAM -> CAMBODIA or worse.

What about all of us beard-deficient republicans?

Nodin

srsly78 wrote: »

I will never vote for Sinn Fein. Not because of the whole terrorist thing, but because they are fscking Marxists :pac: Sure they have been playing down this angle lately, but once they get into power -> BAM -> CAMBODIA or worse.

What about all of us beard-deficient republicans?

Beards will be provided.

Ruralyoke

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Thats a very very small example of the level of opposition that was put up during the last budget discussions.

Just standard crowd pleasing guff. All parties do it. Nothing specific.

...you specifically went looking for "Sinn Fein hypocrisy," no doubt that's what you typed into google...

Well sorry to disappoint and I know you guys can be paranoid types but I actually typed "Sinn Féin budget cuts" - that's it.

Fenian Army

Dudess wrote: »

Ok but they hold huge appeal, for instance, to those delightful youths who rioted for Love Ulster (I'm not a fan of Love Ulster either). I'm not saying all involved with/supportive of SF are yobs, but they do greatly appeal to many yobs.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Morlar

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Just standard crowd pleasing guff. All parties do it. Nothing specific.

One minute it's 'never heard a peep' then it's 'well yes we heard quite a few peeps actually but they were the wrong kinds of peeps - just standard crowd pleasing stuff'. Clutching at straws there.

Crooked Jack

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Just standard crowd pleasing guff. All parties do it. Nothing specific.



Well sorry to disappoint and I know you guys can be paranoid types but I actually typed "Sinn Féin budget cuts" - that's it.

Nothing specific?!?! You obviously didnt even read them. One of them is about an economic paper the party produced in response to the Tory cuts that outlines £1.9bn in savings and revenue without attacking front line services or low income families.
Clearly you're one of these "anti-SF no matter what" people i referred to earlier

Happy Monday

Fenian Army wrote: »

Can I see this evidence please?


If Gerry was interested in cash he could have been a millionaire by now just by suing for defamation

It begs the question as to why he didn't sue.

Gummy Panda

Fenian Army wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Ok but they hold huge appeal, for instance, to those delightful youths who rioted for Love Ulster (I'm not a fan of Love Ulster either). I'm not saying all involved with/supportive of SF are yobs, but they do greatly appeal to many yobs.

You don't know what you are talking about.

I prefer Wolfe Tone to you.

BRING BACK WOLFE TONE!

Crooked Jack

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I prefer Wolfe Tone to you.

BRING BACK WOLFE TONE!

Why? So you can accuse him of piking children and pensioners and dismiss his every point and proposal by hysterically crying about how he's a terrorist.

Gummy Panda

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I prefer Wolfe Tone to you.

BRING BACK WOLFE TONE!

Why? So you can accuse him of piking children and pensioners and dismiss his every point and proposal by hysterically crying about how he's a terrorist.

I don't think you know the Wolfe tone I'm on about

aidan24326

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

and some of the players are only there cause their granny lived next door to someone who worked with someone whos cousin had a pint of guinness once

That's untrue and quite unfair actually.

That may have been true to an extent in the Jack Charlton days but not so much now.

HavingCrack

It's funny how I posted 4 or 5 pages back about how Sinn Fein could gain middle class support and no one replied. Is that because Sinn Fein simply don't care about the middle classes or that they regard anybody above minimum wage jobs as 'rich' as it appears?

I can't think of a single economic reason anyone outside of the 10-15% of voters Sinn Fein currently relies on (the target demographic) would vote for them.

Ruralyoke

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Nothing specific?!?! You obviously didnt even read them. One of them is about an economic paper the party produced in response to the Tory cuts that outlines £1.9bn in savings and revenue without attacking front line services or low income families.
Clearly you're one of these "anti-SF no matter what" people i referred to earlier

What I'm saying is that they will and have made all the right noises, including ill conceived flaky economic proposals.

When it came to the crunch, when the direction of the knife was decided and the precise cuts that were to be implemented were agreed, SF were strangely silent.

The fact is they form part of the stormont government and are currently presiding over cuts that they claim to oppose in the south. In NI they were participants in those same cuts.

Fenian Army

HavingCrack wrote: »

It's funny how I posted 4 or 5 pages back about how Sinn Fein could gain middle class support and no one replied. Is that because Sinn Fein simply don't care about the middle classes or that they regard anybody above minimum wage jobs as 'rich' as it appears?

I can't think of a single economic reason anyone outside of the 10-15% of voters Sinn Fein currently relies on (the target demographic) would vote for them.

SF do have middle class support...

Although how people can define themselves as middle class when they are up to their ears in debt I don't know.

Capt'n Midnight

SF have been anti EU since before we joined, how many EU treaties have they supported in all that time.

At this stage I doubt they even think before deciding to say 'No'

Also you can present any economic policies you like when you know it's very unlikely they will be implimented.


It's no surprise that the opposition is up in the polls, it's midterm in a recession.


can we get funds if we vote NO ?

The answer is yes of course we can. Was on the news that if the next Greek bailout fails then the market rate for loans to them will be in the order of 27.9% (or was it 29.7) Which is more or less game over for any sort of national soverenty unless you try to become self sufficient like Albania.

Crooked Jack

HavingCrack wrote: »

It's funny how I posted 4 or 5 pages back about how Sinn Fein could gain middle class support and no one replied. Is that because Sinn Fein simply don't care about the middle classes or that they regard anybody above minimum wage jobs as 'rich' as it appears?

I can't think of a single economic reason anyone outside of the 10-15% of voters Sinn Fein currently relies on (the target demographic) would vote for them.

Nobody responded because your assertion is ridiculous.
Sinn Fein are a political party, they outline their policies and aims quite clearly on their website, which has been linked to in this thread a number of times already.
If you agree with these policies you vote for them, if you dont, then you dont.
Class does not come into it.

I also find it strange that you say you cant think of a single economic reason to vote for them. Perhaps you should look into their policies on education, health care, social inclusion, equality etc...
Like any other party I would urge you to make a decision on them as a whole, not just on the flavour of the month (or flavour of the last four years as the case may be.)