Dublin school expels 4 pupils for 'disparaging Facebook comments'

seamus

Helix wrote: »

no, you'd expect to have the police involved

it wouldn't be a matter for your job to sort out unless it was something that was spilling into the workplace

how are people continually missing this?

We're not. But it would be unreasonable of my workplace to expect my colleague to continue having to work with me, so it would be totally reasonable to fire me because my behaviour is work-related. Even if I was perfectly professional in the workplace.

If the person on the receiving end of my abuse did not work in the company, then they would have no good reason to fire me.

It would be exceptionally unreasonable for the school to tell the teacher to deal with it outside of the school and to take no action against the kids. It's school-related conduct.

Helix

seamus wrote: »

We're not. But it would be unreasonable of my workplace to expect my colleague to continue having to work with me, so it would be totally reasonable to fire me because my behaviour is work-related. Even if I was perfectly professional in the workplace.

how does that make it work related?

Wossack

court action can be pursued alongside school disciplinary action - they're not substitutes for one another

Helix

Wossack wrote: »

court action can be pursued alongside school disciplinary action - they're not substitutes for one another

one has rightful jurisdiction, one does not

Wossack

school can do what it likes when it comes to protecting the schools image, and the interests of its teachers and students. And I'm sure the transgressors agreed to such policy upon induction or enrolement.

is there any legal basis, limiting a school to a jurisdiction? its not like an employee unfair dimissal for example

FoxT

I haven't seen the facebook page, and the details in teh media are sketchy. Nevertheless I think the school was probably wrong to expel the students.

Detention of students who 'liked' the page would be OK, provided that the detention time was spent in giving them a lecture on the implications & consequences of what they had done. Detention on its own is a waste of time .

Broadly speaking I think schools should not have the power to expel students - because it is a power that they will abuse if unchecked.

IMO the way it should operate is
- Schools suspend students pending a district court (or similar) hearing
- Court rules on how the students should be dealt with
- if court rules the students are to be expelled, then the court must also rule on how they are to complete their education.

Too often, the Board of mgt is in the pocket of the school principal - from the POV of parents & students, the district court or similar independent arbritrating body would be fairer.

Helix

Wossack wrote: »

school can do what it likes when it comes to protecting the schools image, and the interests of its teachers and students. And I'm sure the transgressors agreed to such policy upon induction or enrolement.

is there any legal basis, limiting a school to a jurisdiction? its not like an employee unfair dimissal for example

a school can't do what it likes unless it has been specifically agreed to by all parties prior to signing the student up

as for the second point, i suspect it's only a matter of time before we see a facebook related disciplinary measure taken to the courts

Dudess

I thought it was too harsh initially but then reconsidered when it struck me expulsions are not resorted to lightly. If there were allegations of a sexual nature made that would require intervention from the gardai/HSE (I can only think of one such type allegation) then perhaps the school had no choice but to expel?

newport2

Helix wrote: »

no, you'd expect to have the police involved

it wouldn't be a matter for your job to sort out unless it was something that was spilling into the workplace

how are people continually missing this?

im not saying what the kids did is acceptable, nor should it be tolerated, but it's not the school's place to do anything other than report it to the appropriate authorities, which they are not unless it happens in school or while the student is representing the school, unless otherwise outlined explicitly in the school terms of acceptance which was agreed upon by the student's parents when signing up

If you harass a colleague outside the workplace it will spill into the workplace.

strobe

MarkyTheLips wrote: »

Totally agree that they shouldn't come across "the raw prawn" and behave as if they know better than a parent. I do still think the school should be able to say that if their criteria laid out in good faith and not in contravention of basic human rights are not met, there's no obligation to enroll or continue to facilitate a person under those circumstances. In all honesty, purely from an unbiased spectator's POV I would love to see the parent on the Aussie forum that said "try that on my child and I'll sue you into the dark ages" do just that.. (oh ok, I want mischief ) Hope I come across as civil Strobe!

Yeah, don't worry man, you come across extremely civil. In fact, you sure you have the right forum? :pac:

Yeah I get what you're saying about a school being able to set their own criteria etc, but I just don't think it should extend to matters outside of the school, unless perhaps they directly impact things in the school. In the case in question the pupils brought the facebook stuff inside the school by having a go at a teacher at the school, similarly students writing stuff about each other, or bullying each other on facebook would bring it within the schools jurisdiction, however a student simply having an account for their personal use is not, in my opinion, a school related issue.
And I don't want to seem histrionic or anything, but seeing as you mentioned human rights, I do believe collective punishment is covered in there.

mariaalice

Would the boys have gone up to the teachers and said what they said directly to the teacher's concerned? probably not yet they felt it was alright to post it on the Internet.

seavill

Just to clear something up for all those unaware.

For those who think making a comment about a teacher being gay isn't a big deal, it could be.

A teacher CAN lose their job for being gay in a Catholic school, or could be denied a job for the same reason as their life could be seen as going against the ethos of the school.
This is probably one of the only places left in the country where someone can be discriminated against for being gay.
(for those saying life outside of school has no relevance to inside school, if it does for the teachers why not for the pupils?)

So in short allegation of being gay against a teacher could have a huge impact on their lives outside of the whole cyber bullying argument.

(I do realise that they are looking at legislation to overturn this but this is still legal today)

MarkyTheLips

Yeah, don't worry man, you come across extremely civil. In fact, you sure you have the right forum? :pac:

Yeah I get what you're saying about a school being able to set their own criteria etc, but I just don't think it should extend to matters outside of the school, unless perhaps they directly impact things in the school. In the case in question the pupils brought the facebook stuff inside the school by having a go at a teacher at the school, similarly students writing stuff about each other, or bullying each other on facebook would bring it within the schools jurisdiction, however a student simply having an account for their personal use is not, in my opinion, a school related issue.
And I don't want to seem histrionic or anything, but seeing as you mentioned human rights, I do believe collective punishment is covered in there.

Thanks! It doesn't strike me as a "punishment" per se, not a collective one either in the Oatlands affair as it isn't making anyone delete their FB. The Aussie school are only insisting that the pupils (and parents) abide by FB's own TOS, so effectively depriving the underage pupils of something they shouldn't have in the first place according to FB themselves. As an aside, I don't think under 13s should have a FB.. But then, I am a crusty old fcuk (of a 31 year old )

araic88

FoxT wrote: »

I haven't seen the facebook page, and the details in teh media are sketchy. Nevertheless I think the school was probably wrong to expel the students.

Detention of students who 'liked' the page would be OK, provided that the detention time was spent in giving them a lecture on the implications & consequences of what they had done. Detention on its own is a waste of time .

Broadly speaking I think schools should not have the power to expel students - because it is a power that they will abuse if unchecked.

IMO the way it should operate is
- Schools suspend students pending a district court (or similar) hearing
- Court rules on how the students should be dealt with
- if court rules the students are to be expelled, then the court must also rule on how they are to complete their education.

Too often, the Board of mgt is in the pocket of the school principal - from the POV of parents & students, the district court or similar independent arbritrating body would be fairer.

Such rubbish.

I also haven't seen the comments but imagine they were pretty serious, it's not worth the risk of losing an appeal after expelling a student.

As has been pointed out before, this school may well have expelled pupils for bullying other pupils, but that wouldnt have been of media interest. I'd also hope staff-staff or staff-pupil bullying would be dealt with in a similar manner.

17 year olds are not little kids and the internet is not always a harmless bit of fun.
There are education welfare officers to help such students find new school, they should keep their heads down & mouths shut in future!

languagenerd

Helix wrote: »

im not taking the kids just being kids line, im saying that if they slander their teachers outside school that's a case for the court, not for the school

if they slander their teachers inside school, it's a case for the school, as well as the court

In my secondary school, anyone could be disciplined for something they did outside school if it "damaged the school's image".

Eg. There was a particular rule that a lot of people hated that stipulated that you couldn't smoke while wearing the school uniform, because it was deemed that you were representing the school. So people were given demerits or detention after being seen smoking outside school grounds or on their way home.

This could be a similar case, because (a) the students probably had their school listed on their profile and (b) someone in this thread said that the page in question was called "Oatlands College Memes". If this is the case (I don't know for sure), then it could technically be seen as "representing the school" or at least "damaging the school's image".

Also, if the teacher(s) in question felt bullied or intimidated, then, yes, the school has the right to expel students. Why should someone have to face people who have harrassed them everyday? Why should the school have to accept someone who has been bullying other members of the community? It's the same way that if a student bullied another student, whether inside school or out, it would be acceptable that they be expelled/moved to protect their victim.

Obviously, we don't know the full seriousness of this situation, so we can't say for sure. But I don't think it was outside the school's jurisdiction...

byhookorbycrook

FoxT wrote: »

Broadly speaking I think schools should not have the power to expel students - because it is a power that they will abuse if unchecked.

IMO the way it should operate is
- Schools suspend students pending a district court (or similar) hearing
- Court rules on how the students should be dealt with
- if court rules the students are to be expelled, then the court must also rule on how they are to complete their education.

Too often, the Board of mgt is in the pocket of the school principal - from the POV of parents & students, the district court or similar independent arbritrating body would be fairer.

Parents will generally fight any expulsion, schools only use it as a very last resort it is almost impossible to expel students and every i must be dotted and t crossed,several times.Even then, the school can be forced to take the student back, no matter what they have done, who they have assaulted,threatened,how much criminal damage they have done etc.

How can you assert that the BOM is "in the pocket of the principal?"As to completing education, the student is excluded from one school, not all schools.

Helix

Helix wrote: »

im not taking the kids just being kids line, im saying that if they slander their teachers outside school that's a case for the court, not for the school

if they slander their teachers inside school, it's a case for the school, as well as the court

They're slandering their teachers inside and outside school.. Doesn't matter where the kids were sitting when the posts were made. The effects were felt both inside and outside the school.

Your logic would allow me to slander freely from a different jurisdiction or share company secrets online as long as I'm outside work. Saying it's a only a civil matter is completely deluded.

Show Time

problemchimp wrote: »

I take the points about bullying, but is this a bullying issue? No other pupils were bullied and let's face it, we all had stories/rumours about teachers when we where at school. Suspension? yes. Expulsion? no.

What about the reputation of the teachers???

Do their good names matter at all??

False accusations and rumours could destroy their careers.

validusername1

Depends what exactly they said.

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with discussing a teacher's work (like if they're a bad teacher or not). I have a few absolutely horrendous teachers who really just cannot do their job. I'd have no problem saying that in Facebook and if I got caught, well it's not me who can't do my job. I don't think saying unnecessary things like bítching about them for no reason is okay, though. They're people, they have feelings too. But if there's an actual reason (like if something is true, or if a student is just talking about a teacher treating them unfairly/being bítchy to them or whatever). I have had a number of my own teachers have horrible attitudes towards me for nothing. Why's it okay for them to do that? Again, wouldn't have a problem saying that on Facebook and getting caught if it's all true.

However, saying mean or insulting things like ''she's fat'' or something is not right..

seavill

validusername1 wrote: »

Depends what exactly they said.

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with discussing a teacher's work (like if they're a bad teacher or not). I have a few absolutely horrendous teachers who really just cannot do their job. I'd have no problem saying that in Facebook and if I got caught, well it's not me who can't do my job. I don't think saying unnecessary things like bítching about them for no reason is okay, though. They're people, they have feelings too. But if there's an actual reason (like if something is true, or if a student is just talking about a teacher treating them unfairly/being bítchy to them or whatever). I have had a number of my own teachers have horrible attitudes towards me for nothing. Why's it okay for them to do that? Again, wouldn't have a problem saying that on Facebook and getting caught if it's all true.

However, saying mean or insulting things like ''she's fat'' or something is not right..

So saying she is fat is not ok, even though may be actual fact, but saying they are crap teacher just beacuse YOU think so thats ok.

Maybe you and your friends think so, maybe the problem is you not her.

Your opinion is your opinion you are entitled to it, doesn't make it correct though.

There is no difference between calling someone a bad teacher and fat, you are slagging them off either way. Real lack of maturity there in your post if you can't see that.

MagicSean

validusername1 wrote: »

I have had a number of my own teachers have horrible attitudes towards me for nothing.

Perhaps it's you that's the problem and not everyone else

BattleCorp

validusername1 wrote: »

Depends what exactly they said.

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with discussing a teacher's work (like if they're a bad teacher or not).
However, saying mean or insulting things like ''she's fat'' or something is not right..

The comments were of a sexual nature according to newspaper reports. I don't think that comments of a sexual nature fall into whether a teacher is a good teacher or not.

validusername1

MagicSean wrote: »

Perhaps it's you that's the problem and not everyone else

Eh what problem are you referring to there..?

validusername1

seavill wrote: »

So saying she is fat is not ok, even though may be actual fact, but saying they are crap teacher just beacuse YOU think so thats ok.

Maybe you and your friends think so, maybe the problem is you not her.

Your opinion is your opinion you are entitled to it, doesn't make it correct though.

There is no difference between calling someone a bad teacher and fat, you are slagging them off either way. Real lack of maturity there in your post if you can't see that.

Because saying something like ''she's fat'' is just malicious and there's no need for it. Whereas if somebody's teaching skills are bad, there's a need for that to be said so that the teacher can realise and make an effort to improve. And no, it's not me ''that is the problem''. Don't judge the situation before you've lived it. For this particular teacher, not one person in my class thinks she is good. Try telling me how a teacher who sits, tells us do questions, never corrects them, clearly expects us to already know how to do them, tell me how that is good teaching skills? Nobody in my class thinks so. So don't talk about something you know nothing about.

''Your opinion is your opinion, doesn't make it correct though''. Yeah no shít? Nobody's opinion is correct or incorrect. That's why they are called opinions.

And it is not ''slagging'' a teacher off if I mention the reasons why me and the majority of my class failed our mock. It's not our fault. I do the work I can. It's not taught properly. A teacher's teaching skills directly affect my education. Her weight does not. So no, they are most definitely not the same thing. And don't go accusing me of being immature, please. I'd advise you to find out the full information of a story before you go judging people. Nice life lesson for you.

validusername1

BattleCorp wrote: »

The comments were of a sexual nature according to newspaper reports. I don't think that comments of a sexual nature fall into whether a teacher is a good teacher or not.

Eh, I never said that it did??
I was clearly speaking generally about discussing teachers on Facebook and the different types of things that, in my opinion, are appropriate/not appropriate.

seavill

validusername1 wrote: »

Because saying something like ''she's fat'' is just malicious and there's no need for it. Whereas if somebody's teaching skills are bad, there's a need for that to be said so that the teacher can realise and make an effort to improve. And no, it's not me ''that is the problem''. Don't judge the situation before you've lived it. For this particular teacher, not one person in my class thinks she is good. Try telling me how a teacher who sits, tells us do questions, never corrects them, clearly expects us to already know how to do them, tell me how that is good teaching skills? Nobody in my class thinks so. So don't talk about something you know nothing about.

''Your opinion is your opinion, doesn't make it correct though''. Yeah no shít? Nobody's opinion is correct or incorrect. That's why they are called opinions.

And it is not ''slagging'' a teacher off if I mention the reasons why me and the majority of my class failed our mock. It's not our fault. I do the work I can. It's not taught properly. A teacher's teaching skills directly affect my education. Her weight does not. So no, they are most definitely not the same thing. And don't go accusing me of being immature, please. I'd advise you to find out the full information of a story before you go judging people. Nice life lesson for you.

One is rude one is slanderous. I'll let you figure out which is which, from your point of view one is much worse to say than another.

Maybe as you said "there is no need" for any of it. Why is it your business to post it online anywhere? Just because you want to?

As I said its your opinion, maybe there is another student in a different class that has the complete different opinion. So why have you the right to write what you want to clearly defame your teacher.

Just because you mention the reasons why you are slagging off their teaching abilities does not mean you are not slagging them off. It's the exact same thing as calling them any name, either way you are slagging them off, just because you justify it in your own head, does not make it anything but slagging someone off. I fail to see how you can see that any other way.

I did not say you were immature I said there was a lack of maturity in your post. Which again there is, by firstly getting so irate and secondly when you cannot see that whatever you say about them you are slagging them off, as I said no matter what way you justify it in your own head how are you not slagging them off? If I am missing something feel free to explain.

Thanks for the life lesson all the same, always good to get one at least once a day

validusername1

seavill wrote: »

I fail to see how you can see that any other way.

And there we have it, proof of your ignorance. You have a nice day now

BattleCorp

validusername1 wrote: »

Eh, I never said that it did??
I was clearly speaking generally about discussing teachers on Facebook and the different types of things that, in my opinion, are appropriate/not appropriate.

This thread is about comments made of a sexual nature about teachers and the reaction of the school to these allegations so how am I supposed to know that you were talking about different types of allegations.

Clearly you weren't being clear.

Secondly, you can't go and slate teachers on the internet if you think they are bad. Even if the whole class thinks that the teacher is bad, you shouldn't go writing articles about them on the internet.

If you have a problem with a teacher, then there are rules and regulations about the method to follow regarding complaining about them etc.

Even if the teacher is the most useless gobsh1te in the entire Dept of Education, they are entitled to fair process. You can't make wild allegations that might damage their credibility or else you could find yourself on the wrong end of a civil action. I'm not saying that they would win, I'm just saying that you could end up in court.

seavill

validusername1 wrote: »

And there we have it, proof of your ignorance. You have a nice day now

Maybe you didn't understand my post seen as you couldn't come up with a mature response.

Saying something bad about someone = slagging them off
Saying something bad about someone = slagging them off

Calling someone fat = slagging them off
calling someone a bad teacher/footballer/student/milkman = slagging them off

If I have said something incorrect please point out, otherwise I will presume you have seen how you are wrong and have accepted my point of view

secretambition

I just hope that exactly the same decision would be made, and it would have been taken as seriously, if these 4 were found to have done this to another student, rather than a teacher, because a persons right not to be bullied should not depend on rank or status within the school. It should be equal for everyone.