Dublin school expels 4 pupils for 'disparaging Facebook comments'

MarkyTheLips

RachaelVO wrote: »

MarkyTheLips wrote: »

I'll take half the blame for using a question mark :-P

Yeah, don't go confusing me like that... it's hard enough on AH, but FFS when you use syntax correctly and you don't even use a smilie eg or :rolleyes: you just add to my confusion...

But thanks for taking half the blame

My pleasure * ironic angry face that I can't find as I'm using my ironically named smartphone *

uriah

problemchimp wrote: »

I take the points about bullying, but is this a bullying issue? No other pupils were bullied and let's face it, we all had stories/rumours about teachers when we where at school. Suspension? yes. Expulsion? no.

Can't be bullying so, 'cause you can say anything you like about teachers.
teachers are fair game. Anything you do tto teachers can't be called 'bullying'.
Malicious, false statements of a sexual nature? No problem - they're teachers. Their good names don't matter. Their reputations don't count.

Do you have a brain?

uriah

problemchimp wrote: »

Kids will always say stupid and sometimes nasty things about teachers, nothing new there. When they grow up they usually realise it was just kids stuff. Punish them yes, but to ruin their furure prospects is a bit much. Teachers are well aware of situation and have to accept it as an unfortunate part of the job.

So these 17/18 year-olds are kids when they want to get away with cyber bullying, but grown-ups when they want to do anything else?
and no, teachers do not have to accept cyber bullying, and they do not have to accept defamation.

Hope the teachers take the over-eighteens to court.

I think expulsion was fair.

It's just a pity that I've never seen the bullying of students being taken as seriously.

RachaelVO

true-or-false wrote: »

I think expulsion was fair.

It's just a pity that I've never seen the bullying of students being taken as seriously.

VERY fair point... I just hope this point highlights bullying of any type, where ever it happens to be. It should not be tolerated in any form.

The school my daughter goes to has an anti bullying charter, and they started it a few years ago, each child has to sign it, and it's explained in ways they can understand what bullying is (it's primary school). They said that they have reduced cases and complaints of bullying significantly. They have end included children who were bullys in plays about anti bullying and they said it worked really well. Not so sure it can be applied across the board, but it was one of the reasons we choose the school!

MarkyTheLips

On the flip side, I'm sure the school investigated whether the 4 pupils were undergoing any bullying at home or in said school which would make them victims.. And their victims victims-of-victims *head implodes* ad nauseum..

strobe

Niall09 wrote: »

It is against Facebook's terms and conditions that people are not allowed use Facebook if they are under 13.

https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms

"You will not use Facebook if you are under 13."

Not the schools place to do anything in relation to Facebook T&C violations. It's none of their fucking business.

(sorry I know the thread has +100 posts and I'm replying to a post on page one without reading it.)

mikemac1

South Co Dublin

The daddies will be along shortly with the barristers for their little angels

TheVoodoo

mikemac1 wrote: »

South Co Dublin

The daddies will be along shortly with the barristers for their little angels

Having just brushed the chips off their shoulders, no doubt.

MarkyTheLips

strobe wrote: »

Niall09 wrote: »

It is against Facebook's terms and conditions that people are not allowed use Facebook if they are under 13.

https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms

"You will not use Facebook if you are under 13."

Not the schools place to do anything in relation to Facebook T&C violations. It's none of their fu[COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]king business.

(sorry I know the thread has +100 posts and I'm replying to a post on page one without reading it.)

Valid point. Mind if I ask how you'd feel about any hypothetical below 13yrs offspring of yours being on FB while the TOS recommended against it? Just curious, not trolling. I do feel a school has a "care of duty" which is perhaps overlooked in this thread by some. My take on it is that a school is quite correct to assert entry criteria as it sees fit that do not conflict with an individual's basic human rights. Happily open to correction but I don't feel access to FB is a basic human right in b4 freedom of speech etc.

strobe

MarkyTheLips wrote: »

Valid point. Mind if I ask how you'd feel about any hypothetical below 13yrs offspring of yours being on FB while the TOS recommended against it? Just curious, not trolling. I do feel a school has a "care of duty" which is perhaps overlooked in this thread by some. My take on it is that a school is quite correct to assert entry criteria as it sees fit that do not conflict with an individual's basic human rights. Happily open to correction but I don't feel access to FB is a basic human right in b4 freedom of speech etc.

It would depend on the specific hypothetical below 13yrs offspring of mine in question, probably. I can't imagine in most envisionable circumstances I would have a problem with it. But if the school found out about the hypothetical below 13yrs offspring of mine being on FB while the T&C recommended against it I think they should, at most, possibly, inform me of the fact. I do not for a second think they should take it upon themselves to suggest or impose upon me what I do in relation to the information and certainly don't think they should impose a punishment in school, whether that be expulsion, suspension, detention or extra homework, in relation to the matter.

Whispered

omgitsthelazor wrote: »

Anybody else think that far too much is being made of cyber bullying these days? .........

I'm not advocating what goes on online but it is a far more even ground for everyone to handle themselves than face to face is, if people start blowing their horn about tackling the bullies because of what people say on facebook or twitter then I cannot even begin to describe how far off base they are.

I really don't think so, years ago you had a bully at school, but you got a break from it - now, they come home and are still on the recieving end of taunts and mockery. Whether that is via text messages or facebook messages, emails etc. To say it isn't is just wrong in my opinion. It makes the continuation of bullying (from school to home) seem like something people shouldn't worry about. Can you imagine if the bullies you dealt with in school had a direct line to you in your home as well?

A friends child has been on the recieving end of horrible taunts and comments both in school and online. The bully is still in the school, the child in question has been off for the past few weeks on doctors orders. The online stuff and the feeling of not being able to get away from them is what is causing the most stress. Numbers have been changed, profiles deleted and blocked, but it's still ongoing.

I think the punishment is great - but I'd like to see similar punishments for bullies who target other students too, not just the teachers.

MarkyTheLips

strobe wrote: »

It would depend on the specific hypothetical below 13yrs offspring of mine in question, probably. I can't imagine in most envisionable circumstances I would have a problem with it. But if the school found out about the hypothetical below 13yrs offspring of mine being on FB while the T&C recommended against it I think they should, at most, possibly, inform me of the fact. I do not for a second think they should take it upon themselves to suggest or impose upon me what I do in relation to the information and certainly don't think they should impose a punishment in school, whether that be expulsion, suspension, detention or extra homework, in relation to the matter.

Totally agree that they shouldn't come across "the raw prawn" and behave as if they know better than a parent. I do still think the school should be able to say that if their criteria laid out in good faith and not in contravention of basic human rights are not met, there's no obligation to enroll or continue to facilitate a person under those circumstances. In all honesty, purely from an unbiased spectator's POV I would love to see the parent on the Aussie forum that said "try that on my child and I'll sue you into the dark ages" do just that.. (oh ok, I want mischief ) Hope I come across as civil Strobe!

Joe10000

The Facebook page alleged a teacher was gay, anybody who liked the page was questioned by the headmaster and then questioned again in the company of their parents.

Once the FB page was closed a twitter account was opened in support of the accused and all hell broke loose. I guess if it's not stamped out it can gain legs.

I think the incident can be argued both ways, no pun intended.

P.S. having an iPhone 4s should not prevent you from opening any links.

Helix

Helix wrote: »

they shouldnt be expelled for saying things with a crowd to a microphone either though, as long as it's not on school property or while representing the school at an external event

Yes they should.. If they slander their teachers in a way that affects the lives of the teachers outside of the school, they should at minimum be expelled.

This attitude by a lot of posters, "kids just being kids" is fuking stupid.

languagenerd

problemchimp wrote: »

Kids will always say stupid and sometimes nasty things about teachers, nothing new there. When they grow up they usually realise it was just kids stuff. Punish them yes, but to ruin their furure prospects is a bit much. Teachers are well aware of situation and have to accept it as an unfortunate part of the job.

But we don't know what was said (unless you saw the pages before they were taken down). There are various accusations that could end teachers' careers if they were posted online - like if they'd suggested inappropriate relationships or whatever (not saying that that was indeed the case, but it's possible). Or they could have just been plain nasty comments that would count as harrassment if they were colleagues.

People need to learn to be more careful about what they post online - it's equivalent to broadcasting it! Were these students made an example of? Maybe. But if it makes them/others cop on... Idiots...

swimming in a sea

davet82 wrote: »

http://www.schooldays.ie/education-news-item/School-expels-4-pupils-for-disparaging-Facebook-comments-801365067

Too harsh maybe?

What has it got to with Mark Zuckerberg, is he one of the teachers?

WhiteRose90

I don't think it's too harsh as a victim of bullying myself. However, if it was stupid attacking another student, nothing would be done that's for sure.

Wossack

WhiteRose90 wrote: »

I don't think it's too harsh as a victim of bullying myself. However, if it was stupid attacking another student, nothing would be done that's for sure.

Does this school have a history of ignoring student bullying?

FlashD

problemchimp wrote: »

Teachers are well aware of situation and have to accept it as an unfortunate part of the job.

I really take issue with this,

Absolutely not do teachers have to accept this, they are paid to teach and do their job, not to have their names dragged through the mud on a social media site by a person of any age.

The school were correct to expell these students.

The students will have this on their school record, a very early lesson to learn in life, that you can't go around firing slander at people without having to accept consequences.

WhatNowForUs?

MarkyTheLips wrote: »

My pleasure * ironic angry face that I can't find as I'm using my ironically named smartphone *

Jesus will yee get a room

seamus

FlashD wrote: »

Absolutely not do teachers have to accept this, they are paid to teach and do their job, not to have their names dragged through the mud on a social media site by a person of any age.

+1
While part of the teaching job inevitably involves maintaining discipline within their classroom, like anyone else in any other job, they're not "fair game" for personal abuse, especially outside of their classroom. If these kids printed up posters with the same comments and pasted them up around the local town, they would be equally expelled, and rightly so.

And this is basically the same thing - putting stuff on the web is the same as putting it up on a billboard in the local town centre. People need to get this, especially when it comes to their kids.

To a certain extent you might expect that a 10 year old doing the same is unaware of the scale of what they're doing. But a fifth year who's 16 or 17 is well aware of what he's doing, and is just being a malicious little scumbag.

GaryIrv93

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tds-son-one-of-four-pupils-expelled-for-bullying-teacher-194258.html

It says here that 20 other students served a detention just for liking the post? That's a bit unfair - those students were invited into the group and they get a detention for simply hitting the Like button? As long as they didn't comment anything offensive themselves then they shouldn't be punished. In fairness, anyone would hit the like button if they thought something was funny. Not that I'm saying that bullying teachers (or anyone else) should be tolerated - the students who set it up and made the posts etc should be punished, but it's a bit unjustified to detain someone over something as small as hitting a 'Like' button.

seamus

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tds-son-one-of-four-pupils-expelled-for-bullying-teacher-194258.html

It says here that 20 other students served a detention just for liking the post? That's a bit unfair - those students were invited into the group and they get a detention for simply hitting the Like button? As long as they didn't comment anything offensive themselves then they shouldn't be punished. In fairness, anyone would hit the like button if they thought something was funny. Not that I'm saying that bullying teachers (or anyone else) should be tolerated - the students who set it up and made the posts etc should be punished, but it's a bit unjustified to detain someone over something as small as hitting a 'Like' button.

I don't agree. If you punish them too, then you're making it clear that tacitly supporting bullying is just as abhorrent as the actual bullying. With bullying there's often only one or two bullies, but there's also a larger group of people who watch it happen and laugh along with the bully. Kids need to know that supporting the bully isn't acceptable either.

If I had a kid in this school, I would be delighted that they're taking such a hardline on this.

Helix

MagicSean wrote: »

The internet is always on. It can be accessed anywhere anytime. So the comments could easily be viewed in school during school hours.

i don't see how that's relevant?

Helix

lestat21 wrote: »

If students were publishing abusive remarks or false demeaning sexual allegations about other students outside school, it would still be dealt with within the school!!

no it shouldn't. if it happens outside school it's got nothing to do with the school. it becomes an issue for the parents then

lestat21 wrote: »

In one instance I know of students were suspended and had privileges taken away because they did just that..

which is wrong, and disgraceful. school does not govern the child's life outside school

lestat21 wrote: »

I always believed that when a child was sent to a school the parents and student would be given the code of behaviour. Even if they didn't sign it, by enrolling in a school parents and students are agreeing to uphold the rules or face prescribed punishments. That said many discipline codes haven't caught up with the times and the punishment for cyber bullying or these kind of allegations varies a lot...

and until they do catch up with it and amend their code of conduct, making the students and parents aware that they won't accept anything outside of school hours and giving the parents and students the opportunity to sign the contract or not, then the school has absolutely no right to govern what happens outside it

lestat21 wrote: »

Teaching is one of the professions where you can be physically and verbally abused at work

key phrase there is "at work"

lestat21 wrote: »

If the students do overturn this decision it will make it even more difficult for schools to deal with more serious problems like students who are a danger to teachers and other students

the school is not there to take the place of the law

Jogathon

I think that as these rumours were put in a public domain, in print form, then they are considered published documents/allegations in legal terms. So even though we might have said horrible things about our teachers between ourselves, we never published them. That's why this is so serious, and needed to be acted upon.

Also, this case has hit the headlines as it is a rare case of expulsion due to pupils bullying teachers. However, pupils are expelled weekly from various schools due to bullying other students. It just doesn't merit headlines in national papers. So I would think that if they don't get away with bullying each other, then why should they get away with bullying teachers?

seamus

Helix wrote: »

key phrase there is "at work"

If I was to turn up at a colleagues home every day after work and spend the time giving them abuse, I could expect to be disciplined and/or fired.

And rightly so.

I don't see how this is any different.

Helix

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes they should.. If they slander their teachers in a way that affects the lives of the teachers outside of the school, they should at minimum be expelled.

This attitude by a lot of posters, "kids just being kids" is fuking stupid.

im not taking the kids just being kids line, im saying that if they slander their teachers outside school that's a case for the court, not for the school

if they slander their teachers inside school, it's a case for the school, as well as the court

Helix

seamus wrote: »

If I was to turn up at a colleagues home every day after work and spend the time giving them abuse, I could expect to be disciplined and/or fired.

And rightly so.

I don't see how this is any different.

no, you'd expect to have the police involved

it wouldn't be a matter for your job to sort out unless it was something that was spilling into the workplace

how are people continually missing this?

im not saying what the kids did is acceptable, nor should it be tolerated, but it's not the school's place to do anything other than report it to the appropriate authorities, which they are not unless it happens in school or while the student is representing the school, unless otherwise outlined explicitly in the school terms of acceptance which was agreed upon by the student's parents when signing up