Undertaking on the motorway

Hashy Houdini

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, so far this thread has delivered exactly what it says on the tin, all the arguments have been made, it's going to go in circles from now on and get more and more personal.
I give this three more pages till lock (being generous), but I am out of here, nothing new is going to be argued or suggested here.
Have fun, y'all!:p

guess you were right. Anan1 and Mathepac - I'd like to congratulate you both for making splendidly stupid petty arguments. All you need to do if you're in the right lane is check your f***ing mirrors - if there is nobody in the left two lanes go cruise in there and if there is someone approaching behind you that appears to be going faster than you and you have the room to move over and let them overtake then do it. End of. If they have to 'undertake' in the wrong lane then they are being forced to do so by incompetent driving and it should not be deemed to be illegal. And just because you're doing the legal limit in the right lane doesn't give you the right to clog up the overtaking lane when there is clearly room for you to allow someone to overtake.
Stupid driving causes unnecessary anger/irritation which in turn leads to silly driving and rash overtaking.

anotherlostie

I had a conversation about centre lane only drivers (daily commuter on N7 against the traffic) and everybody at the table declared that they never moved out of the centre lane. I asked them why and the explanation was that if they went into the left lane they would only have to move out if anyone was slipping out to enter the road so it was less hassle...

Hashy Houdini

I can understand that argument but there are long stretches of the motorway where there are no lanes joining + plus if people actually got up to a decent speed when joining the motorway that would make it easier. All simple mistakes which are turning into regular bad habits

Guy:Incognito

Hashy Houdini wrote: »

I can understand that argument

Why? If your driving with proper gaps to the next car theres no need to move anywhere. The merging traffic matches their speed to the traffic on the motorway and merges.

pippip

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why? If your driving with proper gaps to the next car theres no need to move anywhere. The merging traffic matches their speed to the traffic on the motorway and merges.

Design is part of the problem, many of the slips on the m50 take excessive acceleration to reach the speed limit before the point of merging. In some small cars I doubt its even possible.

Lemming

Hashy Houdini wrote: »

I can understand that argument but there are long stretches of the motorway where there are no lanes joining + plus if people actually got up to a decent speed when joining the motorway that would make it easier. All simple mistakes which are turning into regular bad habits

Forgetting ye olde moving finger one sixth of an inch to flick on indicators; those little flashing light thingymabobs that signal to other users your intention to change lanes. So why people insist on sitting in the centre lane is beyond me. If you can move from left to right, you are most certainly capable of moving right to left and indeed I see nobody has any problems doing so because they always manage to get onto their desired off-ramp ...

P.C.

anotherlostie wrote: »

I had a conversation about centre lane only drivers (daily commuter on N7 against the traffic) and everybody at the table declared that they never moved out of the centre lane. I asked them why and the explanation was that if they went into the left lane they would only have to move out if anyone was slipping out to enter the road so it was less hassle...

Sure, I paid my tax.
People who want to join the motorway can join on my left, and people who want to go faster than me can go past on the right.
What is the problem. After all, they made the M50 into three lanes for this reason.

whiterebel

I had to undertake a Richard Cranium in a 220d today on the M7 southbound seeing as he insisted on driving for about 15 miles in the overtaking lane, while talking with his phone to his ear. While doing about 109kph.....:mad:

Guy:Incognito

pippip wrote: »

Design is part of the problem, many of the slips on the m50 take excessive acceleration to reach the speed limit before the point of merging. In some small cars I doubt its even possible.

The slips on the M50 all run the whole way to the next junction. All the idiots fighting to get in to the outside short slip is just another example of bad drivers. The whole lot of them cram in to it in a tight pack then all try merge together. :rolleyes:

The M50 would work just fine if everyone used logic and werent all just out to suit themselves and **** everyone else.

Merch

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Everyone agrees that right-lane hogging is wrong. That is not the question. Is passing them illegal? Yes. Do people get done for it? Yes (not often, but I don't often get done for speeding, either).

I don't think should be illegal because it's dangerous today, I think it should be illegal because a free-for-all in all lanes would be slower, and making progress would be then be more dangerous.

The US situation is different because they have exits leaving the freeway on both sides, they have car pool lanes, and they have six lanes in each direction. Any one of these makes keep right, pass left a mess, and they have all three.

I dont think everyone agrees,( Edit, everyone should but some people dont seem to know or care some people are oblivious)
As for it being free for all if it was slower, it is a me fein free for all, what would improve things is if people stayed out of the outermost lanes when cars were trying to pass, to circumvent this people undertake.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If people can pass either side, slow drivers will drive in all 3 lanes. Soon all 3 lanes will be travelling at the same speed. You'll see this happen in the States.

They do this a bit now, but most complaints here are about the M50, which isn't a real motorway, it's a congested urban ring road.

On the open motorway, Dublin to Cork, say, right lane hoggers get a steady stream of people braking inches behind them, flashing, weaving, and then ripping by on their left while giving them the finger. It generally intimidates them to pull in within a few miles.

Thats the opposite to whats happening, people aren't supposed to pass in all lanes/either side, and there are slow moving vehicles in all 3 lanes.
You seem to be saying what happens on the motorway from Dublin to Cork is acceptable? It shouldn't have to happen, but I can understand their frustration.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I think everybody realises this practice is both illegal, and dangerous.

I'm not sure blaming someone else's ignorance (in lane hogging) gives any of us a carte blanche to pass on their left though.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

It's dangerous because anyone moving from lane 3 into lane 2, or lane 2 into lane 1 won't be expecting to have traffic on their left.

No point nor benefit at this juncture in speculating on a change in the law is there?

p.s. I've driven a fair bit on major roads in the USA where it's legal pass on either side, and changing lanes is not easy believe me.

Most people realise its illegal, not everyone agrees it dangerous, it should be unecessary, but because people insist on driving along in the outside lane, it becomes a solution to a different problem.

As for driving in the states, having driven there, lane changing is fine, its no different to anywhere else, it is as simple there as it should be here, mirror signal mirror manoeuvre, just check someone isnt there before you go, know whats going on and around you and if you need to go in an emergency then you can do it quick.

If that its dangerous because people dont expect cars to be there? what do they want a car free motorway? Some people certainly drive like there is no one else around.

pippip

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The slips on the M50 all run the whole way to the next junction. All the idiots fighting to get in to the outside short slip is just another example of bad drivers. The whole lot of them cram in to it in a tight pack then all try merge together. :rolleyes:

The M50 would work just fine if everyone used logic and werent all just out to suit themselves and **** everyone else.

The two lane slips don't. The right hand lane of the northbound cherrywood slip is very short, also there is a set of lights at the top so you are starting from standstill at times.

On a few of the slips you have a set of lights at the top which also leads to a backlog of cars coming down the slip in close proximity. If they are to space out them they must drop speed.

Henry Ford III

Merch wrote: »

...As for driving in the states, having driven there, lane changing is fine, its no different to anywhere else, it is as simple there as it should be here, mirror signal mirror manoeuvre, just check someone isnt there before you go, know whats going on and around you and if you need to go in an emergency then you can do it quick....

Imagine a multi lane highway, you are in lane 4 and want to go to lane 3. You must look at traffic in lane 5, lane 4, lane 3, and lane 2, any of which could be problematic.

mathepac

Hashy Houdini wrote: »

... Anan1 and Mathepac - I'd like to congratulate you both for making splendidly stupid petty arguments. ...

Personally I've argued consistently that undertaking, except as specified in the ROTR is both illegal and dangerous. If you find pointing out the obvious is stupid and petty why not come up with something intelligent and substantial, certainly something better than this mindless rubbish ...

Hashy Houdini wrote: »

... If they have to 'undertake' in the wrong lane then they are being forced to do so by incompetent driving and it should not be deemed to be illegal. ....

What happened to personal responsibility? It sounds like the argument I heard at a seminar recently that wife-beaters use to justify their actions - "You made me do it, are you happy now?". This way they absolve themselves form the consequences of their actions and shift blame for violence onto the victims. It's always someone elses's fault.

Hashy Houdini wrote: »

... And just because you're doing the legal limit in the right lane doesn't give you the right to clog up the overtaking lane when there is clearly room for you to allow someone to overtake. ...

I've never advocated clogging up any lanes on motorways and I have yet to find an overtaking lane on one.

Hashy Houdini wrote: »

... Stupid driving causes unnecessary anger/irritation which in turn leads to silly driving and rash overtaking.

It sounds like you have an anger problem that evidences itself when you are behind the wheel.

Maybe you should calm down dear before you cause an accident.

Merch

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Imagine a multi lane highway, you are in lane 4 and want to go to lane 3. You must look at traffic in lane 5, lane 4, lane 3, and lane 2, any of which could be problematic.

I dont need to imagine it, I drove on highways in a number of different States in the US, you're making it sound more difficult than it is.

Hashy Houdini

Very predictable response Mathepac - I'm not going to get sucked in to this though I've said my two cents. Keep going with the wife beater angle there, very interesting

Guy:Incognito

pippip wrote: »

The two lane slips don't. The right hand lane of the northbound cherrywood slip is very short, also there is a set of lights at the top so you are starting from standstill at times..

The left lane of the 2 lane slips do. From when it starts as 3 lanes, with the exception of Dundrum.

I've never had an issue merging at any point of the M50 and I've had the misfortune of driving one of the slowest cars around for a few weeks , an automatic K11 Micra

I never bother useing any of the right slip lanes. They end , whereas the left ones dont and the left ones are usually empty due to all the idiots cramming themselves in to the right ones. Its as if they think the left lane is going to take them off down the country with no way to ever return. The slips mirror the behaviour on the motorway itself I find.

anotherlostie

P.C. wrote: »

Sure, I paid my tax.
People who want to join the motorway can join on my left, and people who want to go faster than me can go past on the right.
What is the problem. After all, they made the M50 into three lanes for this reason.

Haha, only for the fact that I seriously doubt any of the ladies in questions owns a motorbike or would moderate a Motorbike forum, I'd be assuming you were one of my lunch group that day as that was the argument pretty much made for the N7!

Sean Kinvarra

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Its dangerous only because people are told not to do it, so people dont expect people coming up on that side.

If it's only dangerous because the RSA say so, then they are the ones who make it dangerous..
. There are advantages in undertaking.... 1 The main one is there would be no bottleneck in lane three. A hogger in lane two makes two lanes go into one.... 2 Less changing lanes, it takes four lane changes to get back into driving lane where it takes none to undertake.... 3 Less fuel omissions, that doesn't need explaining. 4...Less stress and much better flow of traffic... 5. Less tailgating which is driving at inappropriate speed which can cause aggressive, careless and dangerous driving.
In the book on Rules of the Road the RSA give a tiny article on the dangers of undertaking and the first word they use is tailgating. That has nothing to do with passing on the inside.

Sean Kinvarra

There are people out there who say they would never in a million years undertake on a motorway, they think it's highly dangerous where overtaking is safe. Can anybody tell me what are those dangers and why? I've asked the RSA this question and they couldn't give me a legitimate answer, there is nowhere in the book on rules of the road to say you MUST NOT undertake on motorways.

CiniO

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

There are people out there who say they would never in a million years undertake on a motorway, they think it's highly dangerous where overtaking is safe. Can anybody tell me what are those dangers and why? I've asked the RSA this question and they couldn't give me a legitimate answer,

If everyone overtakes on the right, this makes driving easier.

there is nowhere in the book on rules of the road to say you MUST NOT undertake on motorways.

There is.
Just have a read again.

corktina

it's too dangerous to undertake because people don't check their mirrors. Just yesterday I pulled over to let an Ambulance pass which I'd seen coming miles back....flashed the artic ahead to warn him as he hadn't seen it trying to get past him, and got an annoyed hazard light flash...followed about a minute later by an embarrassed and quite dangerous swerve out of the way.

What's needed s a clear set of rules for everyone to adhere to and one of those rules is "no undertaking" (except in defined circumstances he adds quickly before the nit-pickers start)

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

If everyone overtakes on the right, this makes driving easier.

Not in this country it doesnt. Its very hard to drive the left lane on a three lane road and overtake on the right without having to move over and then back across two lanes every couple of minutes.

bazzachazza

You don't undertake on the left because it's dangerous.

We overtake on the right as by doing so you make driving more orderly and reduce the risk of an accident by reducing the possibilities of having an accident. It's meant to be done in conjunction with KEEPING LEFT as well. If everyone followed that rule and moved back in after an overtaking quicker then there would be no need to undertake.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and people do hog the middle and right lanes unnecessarily/stupidly and that does give rise to the opportunity to undertake but remember if they are stupid enough to ignore that rule and sit in those lanes(ignorantly) then they might/probably will be stupid enough to move left without looking.

I have seen plenty of middle/right laners leave the motorway/dualer at the last second, crossing two lanes. I have seen them narrowly miss other traffic and I imagine a good percentage of accidents on the M50 are due to this or undertaking.

Remember you can reduce the risk of having an accident by not undertaking and driving by the rules but as soon as you start skipping some of them you increase the risk. You can control what you are doing you can never control what other people are doing.

bladespin

corktina wrote: »

it's too dangerous to undertake because people don't check their mirrors.

Too right, saw a very near miss on the way home yesterday, Range Rover sitting in the outside lane, scanger mobile flew past me and dove over to the left lane (tbh he never even gave the RR a chance to pull in) another car comes up at speed, RR pulls toward the inside not realising scangerbanger is there and nearly skittles at over 130kmh, I was directly behind all this and braced for the carnage, not fun after over a 200mile drive, bet RR guy will think twice about hogging though, scanger guy just ploughed on.

Sean Kinvarra

Checked the book on rules and still cannot find the words "MUST NOT" in connection to undertaking There is also no rule to say I cannot drive up level with car on my right then drive at same speed.What is the danger as I am out of his blind spot. You don't have to be undertaking to be in another drivers blind spot. When a driver uses lane 3 to pass both on left he goes through the same scenario Why does everyone have to go to a bottleneck in lane 3 to pass a hogger? And you want to know why lane 1 is always empty!!!
if it works in US, Canada, Australia,Newzealand and many other countries why not Ireland?

TireeTerror

I think we can stop this discussion round about now. Its pointless going over and over the same stuff. The fact is the standard of motorway driving in Ireland is pathetic.

I wish I was a Traffic Officer, I would drive about with my ANPR and fines would be going out to every single offending driver up and down the country. It wouldnt take too long before the message got across. If that wasnt enough, I would then start with penalty points. After a few points I would then issue bans from motorway access. If that didnt work, I would then ban them from the road entirely.

Id also have an ANPR on every motorway entrance and exit to enforce it. I would install average speed camera gantries all over the motorway network, especially the M50 which is the worst by a long shot. The software would analyse the traffic conditions in each lane, the average speed in each lane and fine every car who did not stay left when they should have.

Im considering getting a scrollable LCD display for my rear window, with several selectable messages. Things like "KEEP LEFT","SPEED KILLS","KEEP LEFT YOU INBRED MORON BEFORE I RAM YOU OFF THE ROAD","MIDDLE LANE HOGGING CAUSES ROAD RAGE" and all that kind of thing.

I actually try to avoid the M50 if I can because I just feel total and utter rage at the state of the mongos driving on it. Middle and right hand lane going around 70-90 and not a car for several hundred meters in the left lane...Im forced to undertake because Im going 100kph in the left lane and those to my right are going too slow. Then they give you glance as if to say "OMG youre not allowed to undertake!!!"

TireeTerror

djimi wrote: »

Not in this country it doesnt. Its very hard to drive the left lane on a three lane road and overtake on the right without having to move over and then back across two lanes every couple of minutes.

Absolute garbage. Go and hand your driving licence in, you're not fit to drive.

Supergurrier

I once drove from Dublin to gal way in theoutside lane all the way !

vibe666

A far worse sin is to dig up a thread from a year and a half ago and make me think that Paddy147 was back again.

anyway, surely it "overtaking on the inside".

this is undertaking.



:pac:

Its pretty crazy when at rush hour on the M50 you can get the impression you are driving in a country tho drives on the right. As in when you come to a slow down most cars in the rightmost lane, less in the middle lane and least in the left.

I regularly pass hundreds of cars by staying in the left lane, bizarre.