Undertaking on the motorway

_Kaiser_

creedp wrote: »

Not going to argue the legal aspect of this issue but as to the danger associated with undertaking the eg you give above is more relevant to a person who might be slow to move left rather but will do so if flashed or beeped at. However, when I contemplating undertaking on a motorway its because I'm dealing with a ejit who sits on the outside lane and the least likely thing they will do is move left.

All the law and the rational argument around relative risks can be debated for as long as people have the patience but are you seriously suggesting that you would sit behind a lane hogger for miles on end while the left/middle lane is empty just to prove a point or be a class prefect in terms of always doing the right thing? What would it take for you to undertake ... travel 10, 20, 30 km behind a hogger doing 80, 70, 60kmph on a motorway .. what would be your breaking point? As said before many a time .. some people drive in accordance with the prevaling circumstances they find themselves in .. while maybe some people open the glove compartment and check the ROTR everytime they are presented with a problem

I'm far from a "perfect good boy" driver on the roads.. I drive to the conditions myself and don't overly worry about what the theoretical speed limit is. Not to say that I drive around at 160 all the time, but if the conditions allow for doing the limit-ish then that's what I'll do. Equally if the conditions are such that driving below the limit is the best option (eg: built up areas or a school at getting out time) then I'll do that too.

However undertaking is a different matter because the risks are much higher (as I outlined). The procedure I adopt when faced with a dawdler is to give them maybe 30 seconds to notice my presence, then flash the high beams to get their attention, and flick the right indicator.

9 times out of 10 they get the hint and move left. I have seen plenty of occasions where someone will instead undertake and just as they are doing so, the car ahead moves left as well.. cue panic and jamming of brakes!

Besides, it's not just undertaking.. as soon as they're past the car that's "blocking" them they'll usually try to force themselves in front of it - resulting in more red lights!!

creedp

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm far from a "perfect good boy" driver on the roads.. I drive to the conditions myself and don't overly worry about what the theoretical speed limit is. Not to say that I drive around at 160 all the time, but if the conditions allow for doing the limit-ish then that's what I'll do. Equally if the conditions are such that driving below the limit is the best option (eg: built up areas or a school at getting out time) then I'll do that too.

However undertaking is a different matter because the risks are much higher (as I outlined). The procedure I adopt when faced with a dawdler is to give them maybe 30 seconds to notice my presence, then flash the high beams to get their attention, and flick the right indicator.

9 times out of 10 they get the hint and move left. I have seen plenty of occasions where someone will instead undertake and just as they are doing so, the car ahead moves left as well.. cue panic and jamming of brakes!

Besides, it's not just undertaking.. as soon as they're past the car that's "blocking" them they'll usually try to force themselves in front of it - resulting in more red lights!!

OK no problem you don't rush to undertake .. neither do I! But what happens if the hogger won't budge? Will you remain behind him/her indefinitely or until one of you pulls off the motorway? Another point of argument could be introduced here .. is it consider inappropriate to be flashing lights/blowing horns at people .. would it be considered agressive driving? Maybe such behaviour could be considered dangerous as the person might respond erratically, e.g. slamming on their brakes? Maybe the safest thing to do with a persistent hogger is to hang back and indicate left and carefully undertake and of course only move back into the right hand lane when you require to overtake a slower moving vehicle in front of you and it is safe to move out!!

Cleveland Hot Pocket

creedp wrote: »

OK no problem you don't rush to undertake .. neither do I! But what happens if the hogger won't budge? Will you remain behind him/her indefinitely or until one of you pulls off the motorway? Another point of argument could be introduced here .. is it consider inappropriate to be flashing lights/blowing horns at people .. would it be considered agressive driving? Maybe such behaviour could be considered dangerous as the person might respond erratically, e.g. slamming on their brakes? Maybe the safest thing to do with a persistent hogger is to hang back and indicate left and carefully undertake and of course only move back into the right hand lane when you require to overtake a slower moving vehicle in front of you and it is safe to move out!!

In Ireland, yes it is ueually perceived as such.

e46waterford

If I happen upon a lane hogger I drive behind them for about 1km and if they do not move over to the left I give a quick flash. 99% of the time the realize their hogging and move left.

Not sure if this is considered legal?

Henry Ford III

Probably, and it makes a lot of sense too imho.

Sean Kinvarra

ironclaw wrote: »

Different context entirely and a useless example. When driving near a bus lane, its reasonable to expect a bus or taxi to be using it, be that in use or out of hours. As such the danger is greatly reduced. As opposed to the completely unorthodox maneuver of cutting someone up on the left on say a motorway.

You cannot compare a bus lane to a say the M50 or a motorway. Your absolutely clutching at straws here and its frankly laughable.

No it's not a different context. It's not about driving near a bus lane, it's driving IN a bus lane. An out of use bus lane is an ordinary lane open to ALL traffic and same rules apply to all. So why would a Garda pull me in and not a bus if I'm doing the exact same manouvre, 60km/h and undertaking. And how would the danger be greatly reduced when your passing pedestrians, cyclists,animals within feet away along with traffic lights, cross traffic pedestrian crossing stop yield signs etc etc . And also the manouvre I was referring to on motorway has nothing to do with cutting up anybody but simply staying in driving lane and passing a hogger who could be 3 lanes to my right.
And BTW you and your team don't be long pointing out the 3 exceptions of undertaking. Doesn't one of them apply to motorways?

Henry Ford III

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

No it's not a different context. It's not about driving near a bus lane, it's driving IN a bus lane. An out of use bus lane is an ordinary lane open to ALL traffic and same rules apply to all. So why would a Garda pull me in and not a bus if I'm doing the exact same manouvre, 60km/h and undertaking. And how would the danger be greatly reduced when your passing pedestrians, cyclists,animals within feet away along with traffic lights, cross traffic pedestrian crossing stop yield signs etc etc . And also the manouvre I was referring to on motorway has nothing to do with cutting up anybody but simply staying in driving lane and passing a hogger who could be 3 lanes to my right.
And BTW you and your team don't be long pointing out the 3 exceptions of undertaking. Doesn't one of them apply to motorways?

All 3 exceptions apply to motorways Sean. Although a right turn off a motorway is pretty rare I'd imagine.

You using the term "exceptions" is interesting

Pro Hoc Vice

Henry Ford III wrote: »

All 3 exceptions apply to motorways Sean. Although a right turn off a motorway is pretty rare I'd imagine.

You using the term "exceptions" is interesting

I think by definition a right turn is not possible on a motorway.

Henry Ford III

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I think by definition a right turn is not possible on a motorway.

3 exceptions to the pass on right rule remember? The 2nd one says you can pass on the lhs when traffic has indicated they're leaving the motorway on the rhs - as below.

Pro Hoc Vice

Henry Ford III wrote: »

3 exceptions to the pass on right rule remember? The 2nd one says you can pass on the lhs when traffic has indicated they're leaving the motorway on the rhs - as below.

I stand to be corrected but I am unaware of any such motorway in ireland.

Henry Ford III

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I stand to be corrected but I am unaware of any such motorway in ireland.

I'm not sure of any either. The exception to the pass on right rule still exists however.

Pro Hoc Vice

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm not sure of any either. The exception to the pass on right rule still exists however.

Yes it exists just don't know of any example in ireland but the 3 exceptions apply to all roads if the situation exists.

creedp

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Yes it exists just don't know of any example in ireland but the 3 exceptions apply to all roads if the situation exists.

People continue to argue the legality or otherwise of undertaking .. I think that has been done to death at this stage with people digging in on both sides .. at the end of the day its down to the Judge to decide and so be it!

However, I want to know what all you die hard 'do not undertake in any circumstance because its illegal and lethal' would personally do in these circumstances

All the law and the rational argument around relative risks can be debated for as long as people have the patience but are you seriously suggesting that you would sit behind a lane hogger for miles on end while the left/middle lane is empty just to prove a point or be a class prefect in terms of always doing the right thing? What would it take for you to undertake ... travel 10, 20, 30 km behind a hogger doing 80, 70, 60kmph on a motorway .. what would be your breaking point? As said before many a time .. some people drive in accordance with the prevaling circumstances they find themselves in .. while maybe some people open the glove compartment and check the ROTR everytime they are presented with a problem

Henry Ford III

creedp wrote: »

People continue to argue the legality or otherwise of undertaking .. I think that has been done to death at this stage with people digging in on both sides .. at the end of the day its down to the Judge to decide and so be it!...

Prosecutions have been initiated and Judges already have decided. It's illegal.

There's no valid reason to even argue otherwise other than stupidity or obtuseness imho.

creedp

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Prosecutions have been initiated and Judges already have decided. It's illegal.

There's no valid reason to even argue otherwise other than stupidity or obtuseness imho.

Fair enough .. presumably you would never be one of the stupid ones who would knowlingly break speed limits or not indicate or not replace a blown bulb on the side of the road immediately after its blown in a downpour, etc, etc. I'd love to be able to claim such perfection.

Pro Hoc Vice

creedp wrote: »

Fair enough .. presumably you would never be one of the stupid ones who would knowlingly break speed limits or not indicate or not replace a blown bulb on the side of the road immediately after its blown in a downpour, etc, etc. I'd love to be able to claim such perfection.

No has said they would not do it or any other action after all no one is perfect, but at least when people are aware it may depending on circumstances be an illegal act then they can decide if they want to take the risk. No one likes a fine for something they fully believed was legal, we all take our points etc. when we knew and took a risk.

RustyNut

creedp wrote: »

Maybe the safest thing to do with a persistent hogger is to hang back and indicate left and carefully undertake and of course only move back into the right hand lane when you require to overtake a slower moving vehicle in front of you and it is safe to move out!!

No, the safest thing would be to move back to the left lane and not overtake.

Henry Ford III

creedp wrote: »

Fair enough .. presumably you would never be one of the stupid ones who would knowlingly break speed limits or not indicate or not replace a blown bulb on the side of the road immediately after its blown in a downpour, etc, etc. I'd love to be able to claim such perfection.

Yes I'm perfect in every way

creedp

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yes I'm perfect in every way

I was right!!

Xennon

Yes I'm perfect in every way

Modesty?

Henry Ford III

Xennon wrote: »

Modesty?

Sarcasm. I'm far from perfect but that's not relevant here.

dr.fuzzenstein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

RustyNut

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Thats completly the wrong video in this context AND YOU KNOW IT..





:D

Sean Kinvarra

Maybe we should rare up the SI Road Traffic Act and have a Judge Traffic Act.

Sean Kinvarra

ironclaw wrote: »

I never argued that you had to drive in an out of hours bus lane. In fact, I admitted I didn't know the relevant legislation (If such exists) and made the point that, for example, going 1 2 3 2 1 on say the N11 would be rather dangerous in comparison to say the M50 or a relevant 3 lane motorway. The difference in width, slope, lights and turns of the N11 versus the M50 makes a collision far more likely. however, on say the N11 you can expect traffic (i.e. a bus) to your left in most locations and account for it. You cannot say the same for the M50.

Either way, its common sense:

Ah, a bus lane to my left. Its during the day. I can reasonably expect a bus, taxi or bike to pass me on my left. Grand so, I'll keep an eye out.

Ah, a bus lane to my left. Its the middle of the night. I can reasonably expect a bus, taxi or bike to pass me on my left. Grand so, I'll keep an eye out.

As opposed to:

Ah, a three lane motorway. I'm overtaking someone to their right. Only a moron would attempt to pass me on my left as its completely against what is expected of the rules of the road and general driving etiquette.

They are not comparable situations.

What about bus lanes that end at 10am. If traffic in outside lane is moving at 50 km/h, and buses, taxis or any vehicle passes (except bicycles which is very unlikely) on inside isn't that illegal.

Only a moron would attempt to pass you on your left because only a moron would attempt to change back to left lane without checking their mirrors. "Always expect the unexpected" from the Road Safety Authority.

dr.fuzzenstein

It's all been said twice already, so I'll agree to disagree.

Sean Kinvarra

I never argued that you had to drive in an out of hours bus lane. In fact, I admitted I didn't know the relevant legislation (If such exists) and made the point that, for example, going 1 2 3 2 1 on say the N11 would be rather dangerous in comparison to say the M50 or a relevant 3 lane motorway. The difference in width, slope, lights and turns of the N11 versus the M50 makes a collision far more likely. however, on say the N11 you can expect traffic (i.e. a bus) to your left in most locations and account for it. You cannot say the same for the M50.

Either way, its common sense:

Ah, a bus lane to my left. Its during the day. I can reasonably expect a bus, taxi or bike to pass me on my left. Grand so, I'll keep an eye out.

Ah, a bus lane to my left. Its the middle of the night. I can reasonably expect a bus, taxi or bike to pass me on my left. Grand so, I'll keep an eye out.

As opposed to:

Ah, a three lane motorway. I'm overtaking someone to their right. Only a moron would attempt to pass me on my left as its completely against what is expected of the rules of the road and general driving etiquette.

They are not comparable situations.

It has nothing to do whether it's day or night. It's to do with bus lane hours. If a bus lane is open at 10am it's open to all traffic and it becomes an ordinary lane.
Are you with me so far? If it's illegal for me to undertake then it's also illegal for taxis and buses.
And BTW show me in the book on rules of the road where it says its illegal to undertake on motorways. But before you do so, read the introduction and take note of the difference between the words "Must/Must Not" and "Do/Do Not"

degsie

The 'out of hours' bus lane has been done to death on another thread. When not in use (i.e. outside posted hours) you can choose to use the bus lane. I always choose to do so whereas most drivers choose not to. I find I generally make greater progress than those drivers on my right in this situation.

Henry Ford III

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

....And BTW show me in the book on rules of the road where it says its illegal to undertake on motorways. But before you do so, read the introduction and take note of the difference between the words "Must/Must Not" and "Do/Do Not"

You well know what the legislation says Sean. To paraphrase, in an effort to hopefully enable you "get it" it says - always overtake on the right. It's ok to pass on the left however in these 3 circumstances (the 3rd of which has been shown conclusively to mean in stop/start or congested conditions).

I've no idea why you continue to rehash your failed arguments.

p.s. must not and do not both mean you are not allowed do something (undertake).

Pro Hoc Vice

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

I never argued that you had to drive in an out of hours bus lane. In fact, I admitted I didn't know the relevant legislation (If such exists) and made the point that, for example, going 1 2 3 2 1 on say the N11 would be rather dangerous in comparison to say the M50 or a relevant 3 lane motorway. The difference in width, slope, lights and turns of the N11 versus the M50 makes a collision far more likely. however, on say the N11 you can expect traffic (i.e. a bus) to your left in most locations and account for it. You cannot say the same for the M50.

Either way, its common sense:

Ah, a bus lane to my left. Its during the day. I can reasonably expect a bus, taxi or bike to pass me on my left. Grand so, I'll keep an eye out.

Ah, a bus lane to my left. Its the middle of the night. I can reasonably expect a bus, taxi or bike to pass me on my left. Grand so, I'll keep an eye out.

As opposed to:

Ah, a three lane motorway. I'm overtaking someone to their right. Only a moron would attempt to pass me on my left as its completely against what is expected of the rules of the road and general driving etiquette.

They are not comparable situations.

It has nothing to do whether it's day or night. It's to do with bus lane hours. If a bus lane is open at 10am it's open to all traffic and it becomes an ordinary lane.
Are you with me so far? If it's illegal for me to undertake then it's also illegal for taxis and buses.
And BTW show me in the book on rules of the road where it says its illegal to undertake on motorways. But before you do so, read the introduction and take note of the difference between the words "Must/Must Not" and "Do/Do Not"

Looking at RotR and "Must"

"You must normally overtake on the right. However, you are allowed to overtake on the left in the situations listed below.

You may overtake on the left when

You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane."

So the Eules of the a Road say you must normally overtake on the right, and sets out when the normal rule does not apply. All as set out in the legislation.