Undertaking on the motorway

visual

We all come across these lane hoggers sooner or later

the problem is the garda very very rarely do anything about it but they are more than happy to do someone for undertaking.

No Pants

I almost undertook a white, 142-reg Kia Sportage on Saturday morning. Heading north on the M1 and I catch this ass some miles before the toll plaza. Speed is varying, but he's going anywhere between 10km/h and 40 km/h slower than I would like to be travelling at. He's overtaking, but slowly and there are long gaps where I would normally complete an overtaking manoeuvre and pull in for a moment or two, so he could have done likewise. But no.

We reach the toll plaza and got separated. I don't use the M1 often enough for a tag to make sense. Accelerating away and getting back to cruising speed and who do I see in the distance? The same Kia, still in the overtaking lane. I get in behind him again. A few minutes later, I stick on the right indicator, to make my intentions even more clear. Nothing. Five minutes later I switch it off again. I give a quick flash of the lights. Nothing. After a few minutes, I try it again. Still nothing. I decide that as soon as a see a clear stretch of road, I'm going to put the foot down and get past this guy. I don't care which lane it turns out to be or who sees it. At that point, out of the blue, he decides to switch to the driving lane. I floored it just to get away from him. :mad:

_Kaiser_

visual wrote: »

We all come across these lane hoggers sooner or later

the problem is the garda very very rarely do anything about it but they are more than happy to do someone for undertaking.

Not so...

Had a bell-end in a BMW 3 coupe up my ass yesterday in the rain when he decided to do the all-too-common move of cutting across multiple lanes to undertake, then forced his way in front of the car in front of me so he could tailgate the NEXT guy.

As it happened there was an unmarked silver Mondeo behind him/me who witnessed the move but as usual did f&ck all about it.. in fact they did the same to cut off at the N4 exit doing a minimum of 140.

The Gardai aren't interested in doing anything that might involve actual work. I did try to find out what station the car in question was attached to but got nowhere as usual, just the usual ignorant attitudes.

ironclaw

Lost all faith in the Gardai on Sunday when an unmarked Corolla entered the M50, sat in lane 2 (Immediately) and watched as an AA van cut from lane 2 to the extreme left lane for the Naas / Newlandscross Exit less than 2 mins later. Its on the DVR, have to upload it.

hmmm

Is anyone aware of the guards pulling someone over for simply sitting in the inside lane and keeping at or below the speed limit, even if it involves undertaking? I realise it's illegal as the law is written, but crossing 4 lanes to go out and around some dolt in the middle lane doesn't seem a very sensible alternative - and neither does jamming on the brakes to maintain speed with them.

_Kaiser_

hmmm wrote: »

Is anyone aware of the guards pulling someone over for simply sitting in the inside lane and keeping at or below the speed limit, even if it involves undertaking? I realise it's illegal as the law is written, but crossing 4 lanes to go out and around some dolt in the middle lane doesn't seem a very sensible alternative - and neither does jamming on the brakes to maintain speed with them.

Wasn't there a thread last week where someone got pulled for that? - Here it is

As usual with the Gardai however, it completely depends who you get at the time.

creedp

BigEejit wrote: »

I was back in Ireland for the hols over the last couple of weeks and did an undertake twice .....but not without trying the get the moron in the overtaking lane to GTFO first. They were both on the same stretch of road funnily enough but going in different directions, the Ballincollig bypass.

First one I thought the driver hogging the overtaking lane was really trying to annoy people, she was in an xtrail and driving at 65 - 70, I cant remember if the speed limit on it is 100km/h or 120. I was behind her flashing and beeping for ~10 seconds and she was oblivious, so I did what everyone else did and undertook her at speed and she was on the phone .... just vacantly keeping her car in her lane on the phone o-fcuking-blivious to the world around her.

The other one was heading towards Cork and it was a middle aged dude in a old fiesta and he was doing 60km/h tops, once again nothing at all on the inside lane and flashing and beeping made no impression...this dude did not appear to be distracted by anything, just doodling along.

I have a very low tolerance for people flouting rules and I know what I did was wrong. But if you think I would go 11 miles at a snails pace while I was going for my ferry you got another think coming.

What you did is exactly what the majority of people do when they decide to undertake, i.e. get beyond some ejit who thinks driving on the outside lane is their right irrespective of what speed they are doing. Needs must at times but of course we'll soon have the online anti-undertaking blue light on here crucifying you for the most egregious flouting of the rules of the road. They would much prefer that you missed your ferry so that the most precious of rules is upheld.

_Kaiser_

creedp wrote: »

What you did is exactly what the majority of people do when they decide to undertake, i.e. get beyond some ejit who thinks driving on the outside lane is their right irrespective of what speed they are doing. Needs must at times but of course we'll soon have the online anti-undertaking blue light on here crucifying you for the most egregious flouting of the rules of the road. They would much prefer that you missed your ferry so that the most precious of rules is upheld.

Can't have it both ways though man..

You'll equally get people here whinging about how you should always keep left regardless of whether it is actually safer to be in lane 2/3 at times (as I posted about in the other thread about driving on the M50 between exits 6-10)

Ultimately the problem is enforcement but as long as we have a police force that's just not interested in doing any actual work for the most part, coupled with some ridiculous driving on their part anyway, then all you can really do IS to look out for yourself and do whatever you think is best for the circumstances.

Zubeneschamali

creedp wrote: »

Needs must at times but of course we'll soon have the online anti-undertaking blue light on here crucifying you for the most egregious flouting of the rules of the road.

I'm not particularly anti-undertaking, I am just pro-knowing-the-law. I undertake from time to time, just as I break speed limits and red lights sometimes.

But when I do, I know I'm breaking the rules.

uck51js9zml2yt

I was driving in Slovakia recently. Motorways are 130 km reducing to 110 in the event of rain. All is clearly sign posted.
Everyone drives in the correct Lane.
One thing I noticed is police enforcement.
Saw a number of cars pulled over on the hatched zones of the motorway who were fined on the spot. Most of them foreign regs.

dr.fuzzenstein

Can you imagine the calls to Joe Duffy if keep left was enforced?
"Ah Jaysus, Joe, there I was, minding me own business, doing no harm to nobody, when the Gards pulled me for drivin' in the fasht lane! Sure I told 'em that I was doing the speedlimit and isn't the slow lane for trucks? They weren't having any of it, what's this country coming to? Next they'll ticket cars for being double parked and on double yellow lines during mass, sure where else are they going to park? The next car park is 50 meters away! We're being harassed for no reason, it's all just a money making scheme! I'm entitled to be on the road!"
And that my children is why we can't have nice things in this country.

Zubeneschamali

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And that my children is why we can't have nice things in this country.

Actually, the Motorways in this country are mostly pretty good: light traffic, recent construction, good condition, mainly reasonable driving.

It's just the M50 and the Dublin commuter routes as far as the first tolls that are filled with dozy lane-hoggers. They escape at weekends and get in the way a bit, but are generally intimidated into the left lane quite quickly.

creedp

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Can't have it both ways though man..

You'll equally get people here whinging about how you should always keep left regardless of whether it is actually safer to be in lane 2/3 at times (as I posted about in the other thread about driving on the M50 between exits 6-10)

Ultimately the problem is enforcement but as long as we have a police force that's just not interested in doing any actual work for the most part, coupled with some ridiculous driving on their part anyway, then all you can really do IS to look out for yourself and do whatever you think is best for the circumstances.

Agree boy!! (I'm originally from Cork . .we don't do man down there!!) .. its not possible to have it both ways but the problem is when you can't have it one way then most likely you'll have to put up with having it the otherway also! I've also posted previously that I don't slavishly follow the keep left rule .. if I'm on a 3 lane road and there is regular slow traffic in the left lane I will remain in the middle lane to avoid constant moving from left to middle and back again for no obvious benefit. Of course if I'm on a 2 lane road its a a different story especially if there actually is faster traffic on the outside lane. Don't really have a problem being in right lane while overtaking intermittent traffic in the left lane as long as I'm not holding up faster traffic.

Re: enforcement - stop the right hand lane hogging and the problem of undertaking will be substantially reduced.

_Kaiser_

creedp wrote: »

Agree boy!! (I'm originally from Cork . .we don't do man down there!!) .. its not possible to have it both ways but the problem is when you can't have it one way then most likely you'll have to put up with having it the otherway also! I've also posted previously that I don't slavishly follow the keep left rule .. if I'm on a 3 lane road and there is regular slow traffic in the left lane I will remain in the middle lane to avoid constant moving from left to middle and back again for no obvious benefit. Of course if I'm on a 2 lane road its a a different story especially if there actually is faster traffic on the outside lane. Don't really have a problem being in right lane while overtaking intermittent traffic in the left lane as long as I'm not holding up faster traffic.

Re: enforcement - stop the right hand lane hogging and the problem of undertaking will be substantially reduced.

Ah yes the N40 from the tunnel onwards is a fun stretch of road (I do be down that way a fair bit myself)

Like you on a 2-lane motorway I'll keep left unless overtaking (or unless it means weaving in and out every 20 seconds) but on a 3-lane road I will usually stick between lanes 2 and 3 (or just 3) because there are just too many exits/merges in too short a space given the traffic volumes (especially on the M50 at the stretch I mentioned).

cson

visual wrote: »

We all come across these lane hoggers sooner or later

the problem is the garda very very rarely do anything about it but they are more than happy to do someone for undertaking.

Yeah Guards did me for undertaking in a bus lane (out of hours obviously). Guy doing about 30/40 in front of me. It was the Malahide Rd near Clarehall.

Just got a caution luckily but still.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

cson wrote: »

Yeah Guards did me for undertaking in a bus lane (out of hours obviously). Guy doing about 30/40 in front of me. It was the Malahide Rd near Clarehall.

Just got a caution luckily but still.

Shouldnt the other traffic have been driving in the out of hours bus lane?
Should have asked the AGS member why he wasn't "doing" them instead?

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Shouldnt the other traffic have been driving in the out of hours bus lane?
Should have asked the AGS member why he wasn't "doing" them instead?

That'll buy you a 317, pointing out police stupidity.

creedp

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Shouldnt the other traffic have been driving in the out of hours bus lane?
Should have asked the AGS member why he wasn't "doing" them instead?

Are you required to drive in an 'out of hours' bus lane?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

creedp wrote: »

Are you required to drive in an 'out of hours' bus lane?

Well it is the left most lane, so yes.:rolleyes:

ironclaw

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Well it is the left most lane, so yes.:rolleyes:

Pretty sure this was debated to the nines but given its a continuous white line, you can't cross it or something to that effect. So you were basically trapped in it. Also I don't think anyone ever produced evidence or legislation saying you had to use it or when out of hours it constituted a 'normal' driving lane in Ireland (Could be wrong)

That said I still treat it like a normal lane when I can. But I can't imagine going 1 2 and 3, and back, to overtake on say the N11 between town and Foxrock. That would be insanity.

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

Pretty sure this was debated to the nines but given its a continuous white line, you can't cross it or something to that effect. So you were basically trapped in it. Also I don't think anyone ever produced evidence or legislation saying you had to use it or when out of hours it constituted a 'normal' driving lane in Ireland (Could be wrong)

An out of hours/non-operational Bus lane is a normal traffic lane and should be treated as such - at least that's my interpretation of it. The solid white line doesn't apply in that case as that line is intended to separate the lane only when it's active

But I can't imagine going 1 2 and 3, and back, to overtake on say the N11 between town and Foxrock. That would be insanity.

And yet the law would say that that's exactly what you should/have to do :rolleyes: That's why I just sit out in lane 2/3 when in traffic on such a road... BUT I would never be holding anyone up either

Cleveland Hot Pocket

ironclaw wrote: »

Pretty sure this was debated to the nines but given its a continuous white line, you can't cross it or something to that effect. So you were basically trapped in it. Also I don't think anyone ever produced evidence or legislation saying you had to use it or when out of hours it constituted a 'normal' driving lane in Ireland (Could be wrong)

That said I still treat it like a normal lane when I can. But I can't imagine going 1 2 and 3, and back, to overtake on say the N11 between town and Foxrock. That would be insanity.

It is a normal driving lane, the only distinction between it and the other lanes is not in place when the bus lane is out of operational hours.

Sean Kinvarra

cson wrote: »

Yeah Guards did me for undertaking in a bus lane (out of hours obviously). Guy doing about 30/40 in front of me. It was the Malahide Rd near Clarehall.

Just got a caution luckily but still.

(5) (ii). If you had used your indicator to take next left the Garda couldn't have done you. People who think the person undertaking is at fault for the hogger may not check his indicators when changing to inside lane. How can somebody else be at fault for an idiots stupidity. It's like saying, if you go through a green light and some idiot goes through a red from your right and hits you then you are at fault.
He should also have pulled buses and taxis for same, when bus lanes are out of use the same rules apply to everybody



“(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—

(i) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or turn to the left,

(ii) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn to the left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention, or

(iii) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle,

TheChizler

ironclaw wrote: »

Pretty sure this was debated to the nines but given its a continuous white line, you can't cross it or something to that effect. So you were basically trapped in it. Also I don't think anyone ever produced evidence or legislation saying you had to use it or when out of hours it constituted a 'normal' driving lane in Ireland (Could be wrong).

/pedant
The actual law saying it's illegal to cross a continuous white line specifies that road marking as something like rm001, a bus lane line is a different marking number by law, different width and purpose, I think rm010, so by strict application of the law there's no specific crime to cross it. That said I'm not sure all Gardaí would apply that correctly.

Edit: Those marking numbers are RRM 001, and RUS 028.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

(5) (ii). If you had used your indicator to take next left the Garda couldn't have done you. People who think the person undertaking is at fault for the hogger may not check his indicators when changing to inside lane. How can somebody else be at fault for an idiots stupidity. It's like saying, if you go through a green light and some idiot goes through a red from your right and hits you then you are at fault.
He should also have pulled buses and taxis for same, when bus lanes are out of use the same rules apply to everybody



“(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—

(i) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or turn to the left,

(ii) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn to the left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention, or

(iii) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle,

Unless you, like, you know, didn't take the next left.
And then try saying to the Gard "Sure I was going left, Gard", he would say "is that so? I could have sworn I saw you going straight on" whilst checking you and your car for anything and everything he could issue you a ticket for which is the natural response of a Gard when he feels the piss is being taken.
If this advise is so rock-solid, I want a documented example of that exact occurrence happening, with some evidence of what was said and the Gard saying "Well, if your intention was to go left, but you changed your mind, that's grand so, you're not taking the piss at all and I won't keep you here for half an hour while I look you and your car over with a magnifying glass to find even the tiniest thing wrong"

Sean Kinvarra

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Unless you, like, you know, didn't take the next left.
And then try saying to the Gard "Sure I was going left, Gard", he would say "is that so? I could have sworn I saw you going straight on" whilst checking you and your car for anything and everything he could issue you a ticket for which is the natural response of a Gard when he feels the piss is being taken.
If this advise is so rock-solid, I want a documented example of that exact occurrence happening, with some evidence of what was said and the Gard saying "Well, if your intention was to go left, but you changed your mind, that's grand so, you're not taking the piss at all and I won't keep you here for half an hour while I look you and your car over with a magnifying glass to find even the tiniest thing wrong"

The point I'm making is that the actual undertaking IS legal irrelevant of the speed. And the fact is if a dozy hogger decides to cut in without checking his mirrors it is his fault if there's a collision.
If Gardai don't pull in buses and taxis for undertaking after bus hours how is it so dangerous. Like if I'm driving between two buses 60kmh when bus lane time expires and passing traffic driving 50kmh in the outside lane. Both of us are undertaking. So how is there a problem with one and not the other?

creedp

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Well it is the left most lane, so yes.:rolleyes:

Like the sarcasm ...you wear it well.

Funny how often I see gardai pulling people for driving in an in operation bus lane but I have yet to see the gardai pulling people for not driving in an out of operation bus lane .. resisting the tempation to rolly eyes.

visual

creedp wrote: »

Like the sarcasm ...you wear it well.

Funny how often I see gardai pulling people for driving in an in operation bus lane but I have yet to see the gardai pulling people for not driving in an out of operation bus lane .. resisting the tempation to rolly eyes.

Dont see the garda pulling middle lane hoggers on 3 lane motorway or dual carriageway but the law still dictates drive on the left even if its not enforced

degsie

So, what is the answer to the op's question? Is it dangerous?

greenflash

cson wrote: »

Yeah Guards did me for undertaking in a bus lane (out of hours obviously). Guy doing about 30/40 in front of me. It was the Malahide Rd near Clarehall.

Just got a caution luckily but still.

Bus lane at Clarehall is 24/7