Undertaking on the motorway

Zubeneschamali

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I often see people pull out just in front of me (of course I'm ready for them, being ever vigilant), overtake at 0.015 km/h faster than the vehicle they're overtaking and then stay out that little bit longer just to make a point.

I miss out on a lot of the rage people feel on this subject, because I seldom use the M50 or Naas road. I do get this though, driving on the M6/M4.

People are generally well behaved, between the toll gates, keeping left and passing right, but then you cruise up to a junction, slow drivers join at 80, and then almost equally slow drivers spill out into the overtaking lane at 81, forming a rolling roadblock for a couple of kilometers.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I miss out on a lot of the rage people feel on this subject, because I seldom use the M50 or Naas road. I do get this though, driving on the M6/M4.

People are generally well behaved, between the toll gates, keeping left and passing right, but then you cruise up to a junction, slow drivers join at 80, and then almost equally slow drivers spill out into the overtaking lane at 81, forming a rolling roadblock for a couple of kilometers.

This is another problem, that people cannot merge properly.
People already on the carriageway should remain in the driving lane, you should not be overtaking a car that is not in the driving lane yet - then a car from the onboarding lane can merge into a gap (zip merge if busy)

Zubeneschamali

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Do these people not notice a great, big truck directly in front of them, a car approaching from behind at a faster speed in the outside lane and that they will have to adjust their speed either to pull out safely and overtake ahead of me or slow down and wait for me to pass before they can overtake?

I think they are lacking that all around awareness: they see the truck, and plan to overtake it, but they only check their mirrors at the last minute, if at all. The ones who do check have to lamp on the brakes. The ones who don't are the people who pull out and make you brake.

Zubeneschamali

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

People already on the carriageway should remain in the driving lane, you should not be overtaking a car that is not in the driving lane yet - then a car from the onboarding lane can merge into a gap (zip merge if busy)

Fine in theory, but these people do not accelerate to join traffic, they bumble out at 80 in top gear already. You really have to move out to avoid them, or brake down to 80 yourself.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Fine in theory, but these people do not accelerate to join traffic, they bumble out at 80 in top gear already. You really have to move out to avoid them, or brake down to 80 yourself.

Or just simply continue on your path without adjusting your speed.
As you are on the carriageway already you will have right of way, the merger must accomodate you, not the other way around.

I usually have the cruise control set at 100-110 in the driving lane. If people want to merge in front of me they will need to increase their speed past that mark to get in front, otherwise they must merge behind.
I don't move out to the overtaking lane as I wouldnt be overtaking, technically.

Zubeneschamali

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I usually have the cruise control set at 100-110 in the driving lane. If people want to merge in front of me they will need to increase their speed past that mark to get in front, otherwise they must merge behind.

The ones I'm talking about will make it out in front of me doing 40-50 km/h less than I am.

So I either pull out or stand on the brakes.

Since I can see from 200m back that they are going to do this, I pull out preemptively. And then a second bumbler lurches out into the overtaking lane to pass the first one (sloooowly).

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Or just simply continue on your path without adjusting your speed.
As you are on the carriageway already you will have right of way, the merger must accomodate you, not the other way around.

I usually have the cruise control set at 100-110 in the driving lane. If people want to merge in front of me they will need to increase their speed past that mark to get in front, otherwise they must merge behind.
I don't move out to the overtaking lane as I wouldnt be overtaking, technically.

When I see someone merging ahead I always move to the overtaking lane. It's just makes life easier for me especially as I avoid any possible incident with the person merging and it's also a bit if common courtesy to make it a bit easier for the person merging. It makes traffic flow better and it annoys me when people don't do it to be honest.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Valentin Large Ace wrote: »

When I see someone merging ahead I always move to the overtaking lane. It's just makes life easier for me especially as I avoid any possible incident with the person merging and it's also a bit if common courtesy to make it a bit easier for the person merging. It makes traffic flow better and it annoys me when people don't do it to be honest.

No legal requirement to.
Plus it slows traffic in the overtaking lane too.

GTE

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Plus it slows traffic in the overtaking lane too.

I would argue that is only because of the people who do not speed up to the limit when doing so. Which is again yet another thing which Irish drivers generally do wrong along with lane hogging and quite a few other things I am sure. There is very little appreciation of making progress when overtaking by speeding up to the appropriate limit. Although you take a technical stance that it would not be an overtake, that is just a case of faffing around with a word. If anyone wishes to make the courteous move, they have to make sure they make the appropriate progress. When they don't do this, which is purely down to ignorance, then we have problems.

Again we are faced with a choice of either taking a negative view of what is just a nice courteous thing to do or to try and address the bad driving which can make it a problem when not executed properly. :rolleyes:

Cleveland Hot Pocket

bbk wrote: »

I would argue that is only because of the people who do not speed up to the limit when doing so. Which is again yet another thing which Irish drivers generally do wrong along with lane hogging.

Again we are faced with a choice of either taking a negative view of what is just a nice courteous thing to do or to try and address the bad driving which can make it a problem when not executed properly. :rolleyes:

I think if we had a competent traffic corps, enforced lane discipline and RTA adherence, and had annual driving tests for over 70's then we would have a better road system

Then we would not even have to have this discussion!

Spook_ie

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

fyp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You must not use the lane nearest the central median, that is, the outside lane (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the number of lanes), if you are driving:

• a goods vehicle with a maximum authorised mass of more than 3,500 kilograms, such as a lorry or heavy goods vehicle,
• a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), such as a bus, or
• a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

Hmm, point taken but it would seem to me that the Irish RSA are at odds with the UK ( where I passed my test )

the Highway code UK

264

You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking. You MUST NOT drive on the hard shoulder except in an emergency or if directed to do so by the police, HA traffic officers in uniform or by signs.

Laws MT(E&W)R regs 5, 9 & 16(1)(a), MT(S)R regs 4, 8 & 14(1)(a), and RTA 1988, sects 35 & 186, as amended by TMA 2004 sect 6

265

The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes MUST NOT be used (except in prescribed circumstances) if you are driving

any vehicle drawing a trailer
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight not exceeding 7.5 tonnes which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter.
Laws MT(E&W)R reg 12, MT(E&W)AR (2004), MT(S)R reg 11 & MT(S)AR (2004)

Perhaps someone who is fluent in other European languages could see what their equivalent highway codes say

Zubeneschamali

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I think if we had a competent traffic corps, enforced lane discipline and RTA adherence, and had annual driving tests for over 70's then we would have a better road system

One obvious issue is that learners are not allowed to learn, practice or have lessons on the Motorway.

Then they do a test, and are suddenly brilliant at motorway driving, without ever having turned a wheel on one.

So: slow merging, "fast lane" vs. "slow lane", middle lane hogging, stopping in the emergency lane for a phone call/sandwich/slash, how do we expect people to learn this stuff? Osmosis?

Zubeneschamali

Spook_ie wrote: »

Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking.

An obvious issue with the UK version: ALL vehicles should stay in the left-hand-lane unless overtaking (and this has already been stated), so this clause adds nothing at all. Suggests that it was edited from something else (perhaps more like ours?).

Spook_ie

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

An obvious issue with the UK version: ALL vehicles should stay in the left-hand-lane unless overtaking (and this has already been stated), so this clause adds nothing at all. Suggests that it was edited from something else (perhaps more like ours?).

No as people have pointed out the RSA advice prohibits vehicles over 3500Kg from overtaking on a 2 lane motorway, because lane 2 becomes the outside lane. Where as the UK Highway Code ( I think you'll find that their first motorway was opened in 1959 so Irish one would be edited from the UK ) allows HGVs to overtake.

That is of course unless you believe that HGV's should drive at the speed of the slowest vehicle on the motorway?

mitosis

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

One obvious issue is that learners are not allowed to learn, practice or have lessons on the Motorway.

Then they do a test, and are suddenly brilliant at motorway driving, without ever having turned a wheel on one.

So: slow merging, "fast lane" vs. "slow lane", middle lane hogging, stopping in the emergency lane for a phone call/sandwich/slash, how do we expect people to learn this stuff? Osmosis?

In fairness, the very first thing learners are taught is "drive on the left". I am of the opinion midlane hoggers are fully aware they shouldn't be there, and are there because they want to reduce lane changes for themselves.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

No legal requirement to.
Plus it slows traffic in the overtaking lane too.

It wont slow traffic in the overtaking lane if you do it properly i.e. speed up before doing it.

I would never be driving at less than 120km/h on a motorway, I'd usually be well above it so its well with my interests to change lane in order to maintain my speed as almost nobody joining the motorway will match or exceed the speed I'm travelling at and I certainly won't be slowing down the overtaking lane.

I just think its a nice thing to do that makes life easier for people joining and also keeps you out of any potential incident where someone just merges into the side of your car.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Valentin Large Ace wrote: »

It wont slow traffic in the overtaking lane if you do it properly i.e. speed up before doing it.

I would never be driving at less than 120km/h on a motorway, I'd usually be well above it so its well with my interests to change lane in order to maintain my speed as almost nobody joining the motorway will match or exceed the speed I'm travelling at and I certainly won't be slowing down the overtaking lane.

I just think its a nice thing to do that makes life easier for people joining and also keeps you out of any potential incident where someone just merges into the side of your car.

But for those of us that (for the most part) adhere to the speed limit on motorways, what do you suggest that we should do?
Pull into the overtaking lane at my current speed (110 kmh, for argument's sake, as that is what the CC is usually set to)??

I don't think so. I will maintain my speed and the other car can merge correctly. If someone cannot merge at a proper speed then they shouldn't be driving on a motorway.

Also, if I pulled into lane 2/3 at 110 km/h I would be (rightly) blasted out of it.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But for those of us that (for the most part) adhere to the speed limit on motorways, what do you suggest that we should do?
Pull into the overtaking lane at my current speed (110 kmh, for argument's sake, as that is what the CC is usually set to)??

I don't think so. I will maintain my speed and the other car can merge correctly. If someone cannot merge at a proper speed then they shouldn't be driving on a motorway.

Also, if I pulled into lane 2/3 at 110 km/h I would be (rightly) blasted out of it.

Well for a start you are driving at least 10km/h below the speed limit, which is probably closer to 15km/h below the limit when the error is taken into account so you have the scope of speeding up by 10 to 15km/h before moving into the overtaking lane while still maintaining the speed limit.

Secondly its rarely the overtaking lane is so busy that you cant comfortably move into it at 120Km/h for the few seconds it takes to get passed the merging car without obstructing anybody, before moving back into the driving lane.

If for no other reason but to avoid the potential for someone merging from hitting me I would make the move into the overtaking lane if someone is going to end up merging close to me.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Valentin Large Ace wrote: »

Well for a start you are driving at least 10km/h below the speed limit, which is probably closer to 15km/h below the limit when the error is taken into account so you have the scope of speeding up by 10 to 15km/h before moving into the overtaking lane while still maintaining the speed limit.

Secondly its rarely the overtaking lane is so busy that you cant comfortably move into it at 120Km/h for the few seconds it takes to get passed the merging car without obstructing anybody, before moving back into the driving lane.

If for no other reason but to avoid the potential for someone merging from hitting me I would make the move into the overtaking lane if someone is going to end up merging close to me.

But why should I be forced to speed up?
I am driving correctly in the correct lane and legally have right of way.

If someone is attempting to merge, I will continue on my way, having right of way. If they hit me it would be their fault. People really should be aware of that, and also be more aware of how to merge correctly (ie not in top gear at 40 mph)

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

nd legally have right of way.

If someone is attempting to merge, I will continue on my way, having right of way. If they hit me it would be their fault. People really should be aware of that, and also be more aware of how to merge correctly (ie not in top gear at 40 mph)

If you are willing to risk crashing and all the hassle that goes with it just as a point of principal good luck to you.

I just think that it is sensible driving to make allowances for cars which you are coming up on from behind with a much better view of the road. Even if they know how to merge properly its much easier to merge if people have pulled into the overtaking lane.

There are plenty of situations on the road where I would not give up my right of way but this is one where it is effortless to do so (for me anyway) and makes much more sense than being bullish about it just because you don't want to budge an inch.

djimi

Valentin Large Ace wrote: »

If you are willing to risk crashing and all the hassle that goes with it just as a point of principal good luck to you.

I just think that it is sensible driving to make allowances for cars which you are coming up on from behind with a much better view of the road. Even if they know how to merge properly its much easier to merge if people have pulled into the overtaking lane.

There are plenty of situations on the road where I would not give up my right of way but this is one where it is effortless to do so (for me anyway) and makes much more sense than being bullish about it just because you don't want to budge an inch.

I agree with this. If its a relatively quiet road and/or the overtaking lane is free then I will move over to allow a car to merge more easily. I dont have to, but its appreciated when someone does it for me. Its hardly a lot of effort.

RustyNut

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

This begs the question: Do these people not notice a great, big truck directly in front of them, a car approaching from behind at a faster speed in the outside lane and that they will have to adjust their speed either to pull out safely and overtake ahead of me or slow down and wait for me to pass before they can overtake?
Is the triangulation of all these factors too much for their poor, little brains? (which is my guess) Can these people chew gum and walk at the same time and do they wear velcro-fastened shoes, because laces are too challenging for them?
Answers on a postcard.

Do you not think they have enough to be doing what with drinking coffee, putting on the makeup and answering texts, and now you want them to watch the traffic as well. Would ya ever cop on.

omega666

Valentin Large Ace wrote: »

If you are willing to risk crashing and all the hassle that goes with it just as a point of principal good luck to you.

I just think that it is sensible driving to make allowances for cars which you are coming up on from behind with a much better view of the road. Even if they know how to merge properly its much easier to merge if people have pulled into the overtaking lane.

There are plenty of situations on the road where I would not give up my right of way but this is one where it is effortless to do so (for me anyway) and makes much more sense than being bullish about it just because you don't want to budge an inch.

I was merging from the Cork Motorway onto the Limerick motorway one day coming back to Dublin so I was doing roughly the 120km.
The Limerick motorway was practically stone empty so checked my side mirrors twice and all I could see was a clear road behind.
Just as I was about to merge I turned my head and right there in my blind spot alongside my car was a little Skoda Fabio. I got some fright and had to jam on the brakes as the slip was coming to an end.

Now it would have been my mistake as I was the one merging and I should have checked my blind spot earlier but the Skoda had obviously seen me merging and refused to budge,
The motorway was empty so I can only imagine the reason being they had the same attitude as Cleveland, "I am driving correctly in the correct lane and legally have right of way."

You can imagine carnage to both parties if I had side swiped her doing 120km and all for the sake of somebody being in the right.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But why should I be forced to speed up?
I am driving correctly in the correct lane and legally have right of way.

If someone is attempting to merge, I will continue on my way, having right of way. If they hit me it would be their fault. People really should be aware of that, and also be more aware of how to merge correctly (ie not in top gear at 40 mph)

I hate people like that, how often have I joined a motorway only to be almost blocked from doing so by some muppet with exactly that attitude.
I usually drop it a gear and floor it past them on the merging lane. I might then settle down into my crusing speed and now they have to overtake me.
If I can't, I overtake, settle back into the driving lane and into my cruising speed, so now they have to overtake.
One nice turn deserves another. Right after people overtaking me in roundabouts, this gets my goat up right and proper.
Check out Russian dash cam videos for examples of the "Well, I'm in the right, so I'm not budging" attitude.
This is not personally against you, Cleve, but it just strikes me as rude and selfish. It's the equivalent of slamming the door in the face of the guy behind you "well, I'm not obliged to hold it open!"
My own disclaimer:
If the motorway (or indeed dual carriageway) is very busy or and am prevented from moving into the outside lane, it is a different matter. I will do my best to accommodate traffic merging.
What is it with the Irish and merging anyway? A lot of people seem to perceive it as some kind of personal challenge, to be thwarted at any cost.

How it's done:
If I drive on the motorway and I see someone merging, I move over into the outside lane if I can.
No one has to brake, swerve, speed up or slow down.
I continue on my merry way and the other car joins.
Simples!

GTE

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

(ie not in top gear at 40 mph)

I do not feel you understand that that does not happen often and is not being implied by posters when talking about general merging etiquette. Or maybe you are forcing that implication to further justify a bad attitude?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

bbk wrote: »

I do not feel you understand that that does not happen often and is not being implied by posters when talking about general merging etiquette. Or maybe you are forcing that implication to further justify a bad attitude?

To ease your concern, I obviously understand that it is an exaggeration of something that does happen
(Idiots pootling out at 60-80 kph onto a motorway)
And that does happen, I have had idiots doing that in the merging lane in front of me.

GTE

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

To ease your concern, I obviously understand that it is an exaggeration of something that does happen
(Idiots pootling out at 60-80 kph onto a motorway)
And that does happen, I have had idiots doing that in the merging lane in front of me.

Probably best to stay on topic instead of gross exaggeration

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I hate people like that, how often have I joined a motorway only to be almost blocked from doing so by some muppet with exactly that attitude.
I usually drop it a gear and floor it past them on the merging lane. I might then settle down into my crusing speed and now they have to overtake me.
If I can't, I overtake, settle back into the driving lane and into my cruising speed, so now they have to overtake.
One nice turn deserves another. Right after people overtaking me in roundabouts, this gets my goat up right and proper.
Check out Russian dash cam videos for examples of the "Well, I'm in the right, so I'm not budging" attitude.
This is not personally against you, Cleve, but it just strikes me as rude and selfish. It's the equivalent of slamming the door in the face of the guy behind you "well, I'm not obliged to hold it open!"
My own disclaimer:
If the motorway (or indeed dual carriageway) is very busy or and am prevented from moving into the outside lane, it is a different matter. I will do my best to accommodate traffic merging.
What is it with the Irish and merging anyway? A lot of people seem to perceive it as some kind of personal challenge, to be thwarted at any cost.

How it's done:
If I drive on the motorway and I see someone merging, I move over into the outside lane if I can.
No one has to brake, swerve, speed up or slow down.
I continue on my merry way and the other car joins.
Simples!

I don't see how you can say the bolded two sentences in the same vein of thought, but I appreciate the "no offense sentiment", I guess :P

I would be in the right, and I don't see the reason to alter my driving and do something that is technically incorrect (driving in the overtaking lane to overtake something that is not on the carriage yet).
Also, when I cruise on the motorway I do usually cruise at 110, and I don't want to hold up someone doing 140 in the outside lane.
So, both actions are out of courtesy (not bad attitude, as I am being accused of) albeit courtesy to different people.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

bbk wrote: »

Probably best to stay on topic instead of gross exaggeration

Directly related to topic, probably best to come up with a better riposte

GTE

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I don't see how you can say the bolded two sentences in the same vein of thought, but I appreciate the "no offense sentiment", I guess :P

I would be in the right, and I don't see the reason to alter my driving and do something that is technically incorrect (driving in the overtaking lane to overtake something that is not on the carriage yet).
Also, when I cruise on the motorway I do usually cruise at 110, and I don't want to hold up someone doing 140 in the outside lane.
So, both actions are out of courtesy (not bad attitude, as I am being accused of) albeit courtesy to different people.

Ahhh, so you prefer to box in vehicles that are slow to accelerate (or are limited for that matter) rather than possibly hold up someone who is speeding? I would presume that your by the book attitude would mean that when you do go into the overtaking lane that you would increase to 120 so you wouldn't be blocking any 111 to 120 KPHers.