I Love AJ Thread

hufpc8w3adnk65

Lads AJ is a mark, a fan. She knows the buissness from looking in from the outside growing up and now looking on as shes part of it. I don't think she needs Meltzer ,you or I too tell her what a "scripted" title victory should mean. Most people who get tattoos get something meaningful too them. This is meaningful too her. It's what shes dreamed of since she started watching WWE. Shes the top diva there right now and had a big year in the main event picture & gm & now champ. The tatt just somes this all up I'd imagine no more then The Rock has his "scripted" titles all hanging on the walls of his mansion next too his movie merchendise.

Bounty Hunter

i'll look for the old AJ thread later and merge them but for now - discussion split from news thread

CSF

I would.

Max Power1

CSF wrote: »

I would.

There's a long line

gnfnrhead

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Guess I'm in the minority but I'd side with Meltzer on this. I think it's ridiculous that she got a tattoo to mark the day when her boss decided she should hold a 'Divas Championship'.

It's not even the Women's Title whih has a history dating back decades. This is a title held by the likes of Michelle McCool and Brie Bella. I don't get it.

To me it's like if your boss decides you deserve a raise and then you tattoo the date you got it on yourself. Considering the way the WWE has treated female employees in the past I wonder if she will soon regret what she has done.

It's the top prize in her profession. Not even close to getting a pay rise.

Diabhal Beag

Meltzer really is so miserable to listen to these days. Himself and Bryan would turn you into Tommy Tiernan on the back of the bus in Father Ted within minutes. God forbid a title in the top company in wrestling for a girl who grew up dreaming of getting where she is is deemed to mean ****all. Wrestling is apparently fake but it still probably takes a lot walking on eggshells backstage to do what she's done in the last year.

Hashtag_HEEL

I will point out that this woman was once the little girl who cried meeting Lita and has dreamed if nothing else than to be at the top of the mountain. It's a great achievement, a fan, a mark even becomes the champ. I really think that Dave and Bryan need to realise this.

It'd be like one of us winning the WWE title. It's a sign that we've made it to the very top of our profession and that a multi-million dollar organisation has put their faith in you to run with the ball. She's 100% right to enjoy this success. God knows its a great story to have that an ordinary fan goes on to become the champ in the largest wrestling company currently!

GTR63

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Meltzer really is so miserable to listen to these days. Himself and Bryan would turn you into Tommy Tiernan on the back of the bus in Father Ted within minutes..

Dave has taken the minor & U21 performances badly, this is just him taking a shot at women because we`re having to rely on them to get the medals come Sunday.

Omackeral

Can we all agree that she owned Jerry Lawler on commentary with her "Im too. young for you" comment?

Then King and JBL tried to bully her.

cian68

Omackeral wrote: »

Can we all agree that she owned Jerry Lawler on commentary with her "Im too. young for you" comment?

I disagree because that joke is possibly older than the women he dates.

Omackeral wrote: »

Then King and JBL tried to bully her.

Won't argue with that.

Rjd2

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Meltzer really is so miserable to listen to these days. Himself and Bryan would turn you into Tommy Tiernan on the back of the bus in Father Ted within minutes. God forbid a title in the top company in wrestling for a girl who grew up dreaming of getting where she is is deemed to mean ****all. Wrestling is apparently fake but it still probably takes a lot walking on eggshells backstage to do what she's done in the last year.

Yep, a very in the know man, but an incredibly bitter humorless drone is Dave, Bryan to be fair can be funny at times.

She has been fantastic over the last 18 or so months, more over, more charismatic than most of the roster so no matter how big of a mark she may be, she still gets the business better than most

764dak

Hashtag_HEEL wrote: »

I will point out that this woman was once the little girl who cried meeting Lita and has dreamed if nothing else than to be at the top of the mountain. It's a great achievement, a fan, a mark even becomes the champ. I really think that Dave and Bryan need to realise this.

It'd be like one of us winning the WWE title. It's a sign that we've made it to the very top of our profession and that a multi-million dollar organisation has put their faith in you to run with the ball. She's 100% right to enjoy this success. God knows its a great story to have that an ordinary fan goes on to become the champ in the largest wrestling company currently!

TV Tropes calls that person a "Promoted Fanboy".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PromotedFanboy

Mr.Nice Guy

gnfnrhead wrote: »

It's the top prize in her profession. Not even close to getting a pay rise.

The point is she only has it because Vince McMahon or Stephanie decided she should have it.

It's not like if Katie Taylor for instance got a tattoo of the date when she won Olympic Gold. That I could understand as it's someone who has earned a title. AJ got her title because management decided she should have it.

Wrestling fans and former wrestlers mock Bret Hart for being a mark for the title, so I don't get why Meltzer is being criticizied for his comments on AJ.

The Divas Title is a joke of a title that was originally introduced as a rival to the Women's Championship. She did not grow up wanting to win the Divas Title because it didn't exist. The fact it is now the top title for women is more of a reflection that the company has moved away from prizing women who had talent in the ring, and more towards women whose looks are more highly valued than their ability.

This company chews women up and spits them out in a few years with only few exceptions.

bobby_says_hi

And why does she have the title? Because she was *chosen* for it. Out of the locker room of other Divas she was the one chosen to represent the company. Bear in mind she lived a lot of her early life homeless and starved herself to pay for a WWE tryout she didn't think she'd get. She also got eliminated from NXT one week before the season finale and when she was called up she was just fed to Beth Phoenix and Natalya. She probably spent a good portion of her early years in WWE wondering would she make it? And she was not simply handed a title. She received a mammoth push last year that included an angle with the top WWE stars, something we all thought was impossible for the women. She suddenly became a prominent fixture for Raw and Smackdown, main eventing the show, getting mic time and getting storylines. She even got a stint as Raw GM. Winning the Divas' title is the climax of her rise to the top.

Re: the Divas' title - when the Women's title was introduced, Sable was the second ever champ. And she lost it in an evening gown match. That belt got defended in bra and panties matches and slop matches with people like Stephanie McMahon, Miss Kitty and Harvey Whippleman holding it. The belt was seen as a joke and worthless. Trish and Jazz have both stated that their feud was all about them trying to build the belt back up and give it some form of prestige. The Divas' title may be a pink butterfly and it may have been passed to women who didn't deserve it like Maryse and the Bellas but maybe AJ wants to do what Trish, Jazz, Molly Holly, Victoria and Lita did for the Women's title. And since 2011 the belt's prestige has gone up in my opinion. Kelly Kelly, Beth Phoenix, Layla, Eve and Kaitlyn all had respectable reigns and had some effort invested into them by management. Not like Natalya, Maryse, the Bellas etc all getting throwaway reigns with no importance

jaykhunter

Only in wrestling would someone be criticised for appreciating an award! God forbid someone actually see a championship as an affirmation of faith from your employers in you. I know it doesn't actually mean much, just a more secure spot on TV every week, but wrestling could do with more people like AJ Lee who absolutely love and hold wrestling in high regard, and less like Kevin Nash, who just want to make as much money with as little work and as little losing as possible. Outside of a Hall of Fame ring with a $5,000 cheque, winning the Divas title is the highest honour she can get. Maybe instead we should just celebrate whenever someone successfully politics his way out of jobbing!

Lord TSC

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wrestling fans and former wrestlers mock Bret Hart for being a mark for the title, so I don't get why Meltzer is being criticizied for his comments on AJ.

Jay and Heel have covered my thoughts on the rest of the post, but thought I'd comment on this.

To me, I'd never criticize a wrestler for being a "belt mark", and in fact, I find it incredibly infuriating that not only do fans of the business get untold abuse from people outside it, but also from within it as well. It frustrates me that a lot of wrestlers either don't "care" or have to pretend not to "care" about the business, and look down on anyone who does.

That said, I do think there's two types of "belt mark"; the ones who realise how big an achievement it is for them to get a title (AJ) and the ones who think that the achievement is down to them being the greatest ever and that the title certifies that. That winning a title gives them 100% credibility when it comes to handing out star ratings and declaring who is and isn't worthy of also holding the belt.

In all due fairness to AJ, she has accomplished something that the majority of women in the industry never will. In fact, I'd personally consider her the most positive thing to happen to the Divas division since Trish and Lita. She's the only diva who has had me invested in both stories and matches for years. Being honest, the industry could use a lot more people with her dedication and passion at the top of it...

smellmepower

Meltzer's spot on imo.

It's a business,a work,commemorating something like that with a crap tattoo is silly,and opens yourself up to loads of stick from your peers and employers.

If it was Alicia Fox or one of the Total Diva wans who got that tattoo everyone here would be criticising her,but AJ's the fanboy alternative so she gets a free pass because she met Lita once and likes comic books.

gimmick

So, let me get this straight - a person gets a tattoo of the date she achieved what she felt was her ultimate dream, and she is getting criticised for it? Sound.

connemara man

People get important dates in their lives tattooed to themselves all the time but a wrestler let alone AJ does its ridiculed? Ridiculous

gnfnrhead

smellmepower wrote: »

Meltzer's spot on imo.

It's a business,a work,commemorating something like that with a crap tattoo is silly,and opens yourself up to loads of stick from your peers and employers.

If it was Alicia Fox or one of the Total Diva wans who got that tattoo everyone here would be criticising her,but AJ's the fanboy alternative so she gets a free pass because she met Lita once and likes comic books.

It's the very top of her profession. Something she has worked her entire life for. Something that means a lot to her. It reeks of jealously that people are taking shots at her getting a tattoo.

Clemantis

This whole argument is utterly absurd. It doesn't matter what any of the rest of us think about the Divas' Title. It doesn't matter that she broke some BS carnie code. And it doesn't matter whether or not the tattoo looks stupid.

If you don't think its a good idea to get a tattoo when you win a title, hey, don't get a tattoo when you win a title. Simple as. No need to be a Judgemental Judy.

Moneymaker

I think it's a bit odd but it's something thats important to her so good luck to her.

All i'm interested in is her doing the business for the company(which she is) and other things which I am far too much of a gentleman to disclose here. :P

jaykhunter

I have two questions coming off of this.

- Zack Ryder won the US title at TLC 2011 - a culmination of his tireless efforts to get noticed, creating his own opportunity via his YouTube channel, and peak of his career. Is he a belt mark for appreciating the win?

- Does the same condescension go for the Hall of Fame ring? The same argument lobbied against AJ applies. Are wrestlers supposed to treat it as a worthless trinket unless they're on camera?

Hashtag_HEEL

smellmepower wrote: »

Meltzer's spot on imo.

It's a business,a work,commemorating something like that with a crap tattoo is silly,and opens yourself up to loads of stick from your peers and employers.

If it was Alicia Fox or one of the Total Diva wans who got that tattoo everyone here would be criticising her,but AJ's the fanboy alternative so she gets a free pass because she met Lita once and likes comic books.

`

You jealous

If any of the total divas "wans" got the same tattoo, I'd say the same thing I said earlier. If you've worked hard to become what is recognised as the best in your organisation you have every right to commemorate it.

People do love AJ because of the whole "nerd" personality and the fact that she's an actual fan whose made it to the very top (plus she's fúcking gorgeous). It's not that she's getting a "free pass" by any means, but I don't see Natalya or the Bella's doing the same as AJ.

Sirsok

Wrestlers have broke down and cried in front of thousands of people because it meant that much to them, they have reached a certain goal in their lives and it meant so much they have openly wept...people can choose to commemorate things in anyway they want, if your into tats why isn't ok to commemorate it that way?

Jericho has a tattoo of fozzy album cover, why? Because it meant something to him..... Punk has a Pepsi tattoo to represent his sober lifestyle? Why because its important to him...aj has a tattoo representing the date she achieved her ultimate goal...if it doesn't make sense to you,fair enough but no need to ridicule someone for doing it.it makes sense to her and it makes sense to me

Mr.Nice Guy

bobby_says_hi wrote:

And why does she have the title? Because she was *chosen* for it. Out of the locker room of other Divas she was the one chosen to represent the company. Bear in mind she lived a lot of her early life homeless and starved herself to pay for a WWE tryout she didn't think she'd get. She also got eliminated from NXT one week before the season finale and when she was called up she was just fed to Beth Phoenix and Natalya. She probably spent a good portion of her early years in WWE wondering would she make it? And she was not simply handed a title. She received a mammoth push last year that included an angle with the top WWE stars, something we all thought was impossible for the women. She suddenly became a prominent fixture for Raw and Smackdown, main eventing the show, getting mic time and getting storylines. She even got a stint as Raw GM. Winning the Divas' title is the climax of her rise to the top.

I don't think anyone is disputing that she has been the chosen one as far as the women are concerned but I don't see what that proves. Maria Kanellis was voted most popular diva by the fans and soon after was released. Sable, Sunny, Chyna and numerous others were the top females at some point and we all saw what happened to them.

What's so great about being at the centre of a push when the likelihood is, based on past history, she will be pushed to the side down the line. Will the tattoo be a good idea then, do you think?

bobby_says_hi wrote:

Re: the Divas' title - when the Women's title was introduced, Sable was the second ever champ. And she lost it in an evening gown match. That belt got defended in bra and panties matches and slop matches with people like Stephanie McMahon, Miss Kitty and Harvey Whippleman holding it. The belt was seen as a joke and worthless. Trish and Jazz have both stated that their feud was all about them trying to build the belt back up and give it some form of prestige. The Divas' title may be a pink butterfly and it may have been passed to women who didn't deserve it like Maryse and the Bellas but maybe AJ wants to do what Trish, Jazz, Molly Holly, Victoria and Lita did for the Women's title. And since 2011 the belt's prestige has gone up in my opinion. Kelly Kelly, Beth Phoenix, Layla, Eve and Kaitlyn all had respectable reigns and had some effort invested into them by management. Not like Natalya, Maryse, the Bellas etc all getting throwaway reigns with no importance

Are you seriously trying to argue that the Divas Title is more prestigious than the Women's Title, whose lineage dates back to the 1950s?

Of course the women in the Attitude Era had to demean themselves for Vince McMahon. This is the point I have been making about how lousy female employees have been treated. This is what is baffling about a woman marking her flesh in a tribute to this company. The only reason women aren't demeaned today is the PG rating as I think everyone knows. It's not because the Diva Title symbolises a more serious view of women wrestling. Far from it.

The Women's Title was held by the likes of Moolah, Bull Nakano and Sensational Sherri before the raunchy stuff of the late 90s. The Divas Title has been held by the likes of Kelly Kelly and Jillian Hall.

gimmick wrote:

So, let me get this straight - a person gets a tattoo of the date she achieved what she felt was her ultimate dream, and she is getting criticised for it? Sound.

A person who works in a company with a track record of treating its employees shabbily (see J.R.) , and which has a track record of treating female employees even worse, got a tattoo of the date when said company gave her the chance to wear their equivalent of the Rose of Tralee sash. Therein lies the ridicule.

connemara man wrote:

People get important dates in their lives tattooed to themselves all the time but a wrestler let alone AJ does its ridiculed? Ridiculous

And wrestling fans haven't ridiculed wrestlers and their tattoos in the past? Brock Lesnar's sword across his chest for instance? Samoa Joe?

Wrestlers have been mocked for tattoos for a long time.

jaykhunter wrote:

I have two questions coming off of this.

- Zack Ryder won the US title at TLC 2011 - a culmination of his tireless efforts to get noticed, creating his own opportunity via his YouTube channel, and peak of his career. Is he a belt mark for appreciating the win?

- Does the same condescension go for the Hall of Fame ring? The same argument lobbied against AJ applies. Are wrestlers supposed to treat it as a worthless trinket unless they're on camera?

He's hardly a belt mark for appreciating the win. This is not about the right of a person to feel appreciated. it's about whether they should permanently taint their flesh for a company that doesn't seem to care a lot about its employees. Ryder himself ought to know this full well, and I bet if he got the date of the day he won the US Title tattooed on his body, people would berate him for it.

And a ring is not the same as a tattoo. It can be taken off!

People seem to think those arguing against this are suggesting she should not be allowed feel happy about her win.

This is NOT the argument.

The argument is should she express that pride by forever marking her body and I say absolutely not, and obviously a lot of the WWE employees feel the same way judging by the stick she's got.

Sirsok wrote:

Wrestlers have broke down and cried in front of thousands of people because it meant that much to them, they have reached a certain goal in their lives and it meant so much they have openly wept...people can choose to commemorate things in anyway they want, if your into tats why isn't ok to commemorate it that way?

Jericho has a tattoo of fozzy album cover, why? Because it meant something to him..... Punk has a Pepsi tattoo to represent his sober lifestyle? Why because its important to him...aj has a tattoo representing the date she achieved her ultimate goal...if it doesn't make sense to you,fair enough but no need to ridicule someone for doing it.it makes sense to her and it makes sense to me

Again, the issue is that it's a tattoo celebrating the day in which a company with a very shady record of treating women bestowed the honour.

Hard to believe in a week when Sunny - the former chosen one of the company - has been ridiculed on the other thread for sinking so low, and J.R., the greatest announcer in the company's history has been officially put out to pasture, that people are actually defending the decision by the current chosen one and current employee of this company to mark her flesh in acknowledgement of the decision when they gave her their pink toy belt to carry.

I don't get it, lads. Sorry.

cian68

Wrestlers should get tattoos of the date they drew the most money.

bobby_says_hi

Where did I say the Divas' title had more prestige than the Women's? The point I was making is that belt is fondly remembered now as having some great women holding it such as Trish, Lita, Ivory, Molly Holly, Victoria, Jazz etc. But before that it was just a cheap prop used for T&A purposes. It rose above that and my point is that the Divas' belt will too. And treating it like winning it actually means something is a good way to start

Yes AJ will eventually be pushed aside. So were Mickie, Beth, Melina etc. But Mickie still went over Trish Stratus at WrestleMania and retired her idol. Beth still competed in the Royal Rumble and dominated the division. Melina still competed in the first Divas I Quit match and Falls Count Anywhere matches, as well as being a star for two years. AJ is likely fully aware of this but that doesn't mean she shouldn't enjoy being on top while she is. You've said yourself that the company doesn't have a record of treating its females well. So therefore it's even more astonishing that AJ has been treated so well

jaykhunter

MNG, Melzter's article said nothing specifically about tattoos, but rather decorum regarding belts backstage. (You can read it again here) Of course the debate came up with the tattoo, but Meltzer's pointing towards an over-arching frowning on putting any kind of stock in a championship in a fake sport (eg Jerry Lawler). My question is how deep does the attitude go? Every title is a fake accomplishment, the HoF is a fake accomplishment.

I understand you think it's absurd someone would 'permanently taint their flesh' hidden under their hair with something they're immensely proud of. I'm not a fan of the tattoo either, but it is a sign that AJ is extremely dedicated to not only the business of wrestling, but to WWE specifically. Anyway my main point is that it sounds AJ is getting mocked not just for the tattoo, but her, and any other wrestler who'd 'foolishly' regard a championship as something more than a prop for her character.

Mr.Nice Guy

bobby_says_hi wrote: »

Where did I say the Divas' title had more prestige than the Women's? The point I was making is that belt is fondly remembered now as having some great women holding it such as Trish, Lita, Ivory, Molly Holly, Victoria, Jazz etc. But before that it was just a cheap prop used for T&A purposes. It rose above that and my point is that the Divas' belt will too. And treating it like winning it actually means something is a good way to start

Yes AJ will eventually be pushed aside. So were Mickie, Beth, Melina etc. But Mickie still went over Trish Stratus at WrestleMania and retired her idol. Beth still competed in the Royal Rumble and dominated the division. Melina still competed in the first Divas I Quit match and Falls Count Anywhere matches, as well as being a star for two years. AJ is likely fully aware of this but that doesn't mean she shouldn't enjoy being on top while she is. You've said yourself that the company doesn't have a record of treating its females well. So therefore it's even more astonishing that AJ has been treated so well

Apologies, I didn't quite get your point the first time. I see what you're saying about the title but in my view it's way too optimistic.

The Women's Title originally wasn't a cheap prop but became so in the Attitude Era when women became glorified sex objects. I would argue that the Divas Title is there because the company has no interest in promoting a serious women's division any more which the ladies like Molly, Victoria etc achieved about ten years ago. Therefore, they have decided rather than demean the Women's Title all over again, they will simply utilise a belt which has a lower standing in the eyes of fans. When you think about it, why would they want to raise the standing of the Divas Title? Most of the women now are in goofy storylines for a show on E! programming.

In your second paragraph you seem to agree with me that the company will discard AJ at some point. Therefore, why defend her decision to mark the day when the company is treating her well? It likely won't last. I'm not so sure AJ is likely aware they will discard her down the line. This is why I perceive it to be folly.

jaykhunter wrote:

MNG, Melzter's article said nothing specifically about tattoos, but rather decorum regarding belts backstage. (You can read it again here) Of course the debate came up with the tattoo, but Meltzer's pointing towards an over-arching frowning on putting any kind of stock in a championship in a fake sport (eg Jerry Lawler). My question is how deep does the attitude go? Every title is a fake accomplishment, the HoF is a fake accomplishment.

I understand you think it's absurd someone would 'permanently taint their flesh' hidden under their hair with something they're immensely proud of. I'm not a fan of the tattoo either, but it is a sign that AJ is extremely dedicated to not only the business of wrestling, but to WWE specifically. Anyway my main point is that it sounds AJ is getting mocked not just for the tattoo, but her, and any other wrestler who'd 'foolishly' regard a championship as something more than a prop for her character.

Well I listened to the free show where he and Alvarez reviewed Raw and they mention her getting buried for her tattoo by JBL and Meltzer says it's nice that she takes the title seriously, but to take it to that level is, in his words, 'kinda weird'. I think this is at the heart of the matter. Being dedicated to her profession is great, but as Meltzer seems to be saying, a tattoo to commemorate that?

In twenty, thirty or forty years is she going to be pleased to have a tattoo of the date she won the Divas title tattooed on her body?

We're all wrestling fans and we like to see wrestlers have passion for their craft, but there has to be a limit.