Irish Runner 5 mile June 30 (marathon race series)

pconn062

4 stars (good)

CluelessWiFi wrote: »

Hi folks,

Just started running two months ago and did my first ever race today in the 5-miler in a time I was relatively happy with (and one I hope to build on in future races - definitely been bitten by the bug over the last couple of months!). Overall the experience was very positive and I look forward to the next one.

However, reading up on this thread, I have to say that it brought me down a little bit. The elitist ****e that some of you are talking is absolutely unbelievable. I absolutely get that some of you are frustrated by people starting in the wrong wave - it's understandable that you're worried about losing time having to weave through people, or whatever. But these disparaging remarks about 'joggers' and 'walkers' and 'f**king idiots', I think one person even said.... would you ever cop on! Either you must have been born running out of the womb, or you forget the first race you ever ran in. You were a beginner once, too - so don't forget that.

Not everyone is at a high standard of running - some people take these 'small' 5 mile runs on as a big challenge, and conquering them is just as much of a milestone to them as it is a practice run for you. Who do you think you are to talk so disparagingly about amateur/hobbyist runners? They have just as much of a right to be there as you do, and if they're in the 'wrong wave', then maybe you should petition the organisers to make the wave system more clear to entrants than it is.

Some of the comments on this thread really irritated me. Maybe you should organise your own elitist race for 'serious' runners who don't want to waste time running around plebs or beginners.

How is expecting people to start in the correct wave elitist? I mean I know that some of these people are beginners and it might be there first race but should we really question their intelligence so much as to suggest they can't follow simple instructions? I don't buy this "sure they're only beginners" nonsense. I don't know how many times I heard the announcers explain about the waves, at least a dozen, and the waves were extremely well marked but it still makes no difference.
I ran low 31 yesterday and was 123rd overall, so at the start of the race I picked where I though to be an appropriate place to stand, about 8-10 rows back from the front, but yet when the gun went off there were loads of people in front of me jogging along a 8-9 minutes a mile. I have no problem with slower runners, I was one myself not too long ago but the thoughts of someone being so confused and overwhelmed with nerves that they don't know where to go and just jump in at the front is a load of nonsense. I wouldn't stand in the front row because I know I'm too slow to be up there and would only be in the way, the same rules should apply to everyone in the pack. By the way I don't encourage people to shove people out of the way, but when you've done the amount of races that I have this sort of attitude bugs me a little because this problem with slower runners in the wrong place happens in EVERY RACE.

KielyUnusual

3 stars (average)

Has there ever been a thread on a race like this that hasn't ended up in this debate? I don't think so. We might just have to accept this as the reality.
On a separate matter, does anyone know if there is prize money for finishing in the top three of the 5 mile race?

eoinín

pconn062 wrote: »

when you've done the amount of races that I have this sort of attitude bugs me a little because this problem with slower runners in the wrong place happens in EVERY RACE.

It surprises me how irate experienced runners (not you in particular) seem to get at the "slow runner in wrong place" problem in big races. Surely this problem is not a new one and is well known. If it is so annoying to "serious" runners then they should either not enter these high profile popular races, or enter them but expect to encounter this congestion and have a slower time as a result. I'm not a hugely experienced runner but I know that these bigger races will not give me a pb. But nobody is forcing me to enter them - I enter for the atmosphere, the interesting course and above all the fun of the race. For most people there's more to running then what the clock says at the end of the race. If people are only interested in their time and nothing else then they should choose their races more carefully and go for the lower profile races that dont attract huge crowds of fun runners.

tang1

eoinín wrote: »

It surprises me how irate experienced runners (not you in particular) seem to get at the "slow runner in wrong place" problem in big races. Surely this problem is not a new one and is well known. If it is so annoying to "serious" runners then they should either not enter these high profile popular races, or enter them but expect to encounter this congestion and have a slower time as a result. I'm not a hugely experienced runner but I know that these bigger races will not give me a pb. But nobody is forcing me to enter them - I enter for the atmosphere, the interesting course and above all the fun of the race. For most people there's more to running then what the clock says at the end of the race. If people are only interested in their time and nothing else then they should choose their races more carefully and go for the lower profile races that dont attract huge crowds of fun runners.

If people educated themselves a bit more and listened to the race announcer about postioning themselves correctly at the start of a race there wouldn't be an issue. Everybody would get what they wanted from the race, be it a fast time or enjoying the atmosphere. But for some reason people cannot figure out they are in the wrong place starting wise or else they are just plain ignorrant.

tHE vAGGABOND

4 stars (good)

does anyone know if there is prize money for finishing in the top three of the 5 mile race?

I think they paid down to 10th place

cadogs

Any pics of this?

Pacing Mule

eoinín wrote: »

Great attitude. Try to remember that races are not exclusively organised for your personal benefit and you have no right to be physically violent to complete strangers who have as much right to run at their own pace. Remember that you are also just some annoying slowcoach who started in the wrong place to any runner who overtakes you. The pushing that goes on in some of these bigger races, especially towards women, is disgraceful and should not be encouraged.

While it is frustrating to have to run around a slow runner or a group of slow runners, what's the worst that can happen if you have to run around them? Your time might be slower by a second or two, that's about it. Its not like you'll miss out on Olympic qualification because of them. If you find that you are constantly passing slow runners or groups then you have clearly started in the wrong place. Try moving further forward next time.

I spent the first km of the Docklands 8km weaving in and out and around people because I started stupidly far back. But at no point did I push anyone, or even think about "bursting" my way through anyone. Today I learned from my experience and started quite close to the front. The result, hardly any congestion in front of me, and not too many faster runners overtaking me. Consequently I finished a minute faster today on a tougher course.

The two statements in bold don't match up. You finished a minute faster on a tougher course because there was no congestion in front of you. The fact is congestion, being held up by slower runners, having to zig zag around costs a lot more than a few seconds.

I'm not advocating barging people out of the way etc just to be clear but it is very frustrating to be penned in. When you say try moving forward next time - that's not a one size fits all approach. In my case I would have to move forward to the very start of wave 2 or indeed to the back of wave 1 for me to have a clear road. However I would automatically be in the way of others who would have come from within wave 2 at a faster pace than me.

If everyone started in an appropriate wave (and not only that in an appropriate position within the wave itself) it would make a huge difference to overall average times.

ultrapercy

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I think they paid down to 10th place

There were cash prizesfor top 20. Id say 3rd in this race got in the region of 300 to 400 euro. Every race is different tho and this one has a larger than normal prize pot.

Name Changed

3 stars (average)

eoinín wrote: »

It surprises me how irate experienced runners (not you in particular) seem to get at the "slow runner in wrong place" problem in big races. Surely this problem is not a new one and is well known. If it is so annoying to "serious" runners then they should either not enter these high profile popular races, or enter them but expect to encounter this congestion and have a slower time as a result. I'm not a hugely experienced runner but I know that these bigger races will not give me a pb. But nobody is forcing me to enter them - I enter for the atmosphere, the interesting course and above all the fun of the race. For most people there's more to running then what the clock says at the end of the race. If people are only interested in their time and nothing else then they should choose their races more carefully and go for the lower profile races that dont attract huge crowds of fun runners.

So these races should only be for non experiences runners? Why shouldn't an experienced runner, who paid their money as everyone else did, not be entitled to run as fast a race or ad enjoyable a race as possible? It's not the fault of those runners that people start in the wrong wave, it's the ignorant people who do not follow simple instructions. If everybody followed easy instructions, then everybody would have a more enjoyable race, including the elitists (as you've referred to them). Everybody is entitled to enter, and entitled to do as well ad they can. To suggest that fast runners should choose other races to run is disgraceful.

eoinín

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The two statements in bold don't match up. You finished a minute faster on a tougher course because there was no congestion in front of you. The fact is congestion, being held up by slower runners, having to zig zag around costs a lot more than a few seconds.

I meant that passing a group of runners would cost a second or two. In the docklands I had to pass many many such groups for the first km, costing me a minute or so. But this was down to me naively starting close to the back of the field. This wasnt a problem yesterday when I moved further forward.

ger664

Pen/coral the waves.
Different color number for each wave and a previous 5K/10K time is required for wave1.
Stewards at wave entry points.

I would like to see this for the marathon as having to take evasive action when encounter a walker or runner in the wrong wave can cause you or an other competor to get tripped up and ruin their race after 12-18 weeks of training.

eoinín

Name Changed wrote: »

So these races should only be for non experiences runners? Why shouldn't an experienced runner, who paid their money as everyone else did, not be entitled to run as fast a race or ad enjoyable a race as possible? It's not the fault of those runners that people start in the wrong wave, it's the ignorant people who do not follow simple instructions. If everybody followed easy instructions, then everybody would have a more enjoyable race, including the elitists (as you've referred to them). Everybody is entitled to enter, and entitled to do as well ad they can. To suggest that fast runners should choose other races to run is disgraceful.

I don't think I used the word elitist anywhere, but...

My point was that I'm surprised that people who have entered big races on numerous occasions are still getting irate about the whole wrong positioning thing. If its your first time entering a big race where everyone starts in the wrong place, either due to poor organisation or inexperienced runners, then coming across such obstacles can be a surprise and an annoyance. But if you've done many such races before then you will know well that backmarkers will be part and parcel of such a race. And you can make your decision as to whether you want to enter such a race or not. Unless a better wave system based on previous times (like the mini-marathon) is introduced by organisers then this problem will always be a part of big race days.

Name Changed

3 stars (average)

eoinín wrote: »

Great attitude. Try to remember that races are not exclusively organised for your personal benefit and you have no right to be physically violent to complete strangers who have as much right to run at their own pace. Remember that you are also just some annoying slowcoach who started in the wrong place to any runner who overtakes you. The pushing that goes on in some of these bigger races, especially towards women, is disgraceful and should not be encouraged.

While it is frustrating to have to run around a slow runner or a group of slow runners, what's the worst that can happen if you have to run around them? Your time might be slower by a second or two, that's about it. Its not like you'll miss out on Olympic qualification because of them. If you find that you are constantly passing slow runners or groups then you have clearly started in the wrong place. Try moving further forward next time.

I spent the first km of the Docklands 8km weaving in and out and around people because I started stupidly far back. But at no point did I push anyone, or even think about "bursting" my way through anyone. Today I learned from my experience and started quite close to the front. The result, hardly any congestion in front of me, and not too many faster runners overtaking me. Consequently I finished a minute faster today on a tougher course.

I shouldn't have used the phrased "pushed out of the way". If there was a gap between runners that are jogging slowly or whatever, I'd make a dart through them which would sometimes cause a little contact, nothing that would physically move anybody or hurt anybody. I would never advocate that. Secondly, my other comment was tongue in cheek. I already stated how I thought the wave starts could be improved, and that was the discussion I was having with that poster.

Now the rest of your post. I wouldn't be an annoying slow coach in anybody's way. I deliberately run a certain way to make sure I stay out of people's way. I started up the top, about 15-20 rows back. I knew I'd be in around 37 minutes, which would have been 7:30 minute mile (ish). However I like starting and finishing well so my first mile would be about 6:30. I start up there to run at that pace, and then when I slow down (and have people who are going to finish 33-36 minutes who are behind me) run by me, I go to the side and ensure I am not running directly beside somebody so as to not make it harder for them to get by. I don't go to the very front because I know there will be people running much faster than me and I would be slowing them down.

I have very rarely seen anybody actually pushing people out of the way. Contact will invariably come when people try to run through a gap. Also when runners change directions for no reason and there was someone about to come through, I've seen a fair few big collisions like that. If I intend to change direction, I look first to make sure I won't hit someone or cause myself to be collided with, much like driving a car.

Weaving it and out of people costs more than a few seconds. If you spend the first mile doing it, it can cost a good minute or two, easily. Even more importantly, you expend huge amount of energy running around people, or sprinting by people, or running around on the grass and back down to try and get around a group. For me anyway, it takes away from what sprint I have at the finish. I presume some others are the same.

Who said anything about Olympic times? If people want to get their pb's, seconds can make a difference. I train for races with the intention of breaking my best time for that race. I think I'm entitled to run the best race I can once I don't interfere with anybody else's race. Is that not fair? I don't get in the way of the fast runners. I broke my pb by 7 seconds in this race, and that's only because I thought the wave start was the best I've seen so far at one of these races, not that it was perfect. Small margins make a huge difference. If it had of been last year's race, I'd have lost at least a minute.

There is a way for everybody to enjoy the race, and that is for people to read simple instructions. I don't buy into this theory that it's only novices who do it. It's the same generally with the 10 mile and half marathon so most of those people will have done at least one race before. For the record, when I was starting off doing races, I made sure I knew the instructions and started off well back so I wouldn't be in anyone's way.

The "elitists" as you call them, one of which I certainly am not because I'm nowhere close to their pace, have the right to try and get as best a time as possible without having to manoeuvre past much slower people who weren't ars*d reading the clear instructions properly, or who simply ignored them.

Name Changed

3 stars (average)

eoinín wrote: »

I don't think I used the word elitist anywhere, but...

My point was that I'm surprised that people who have entered big races on numerous occasions are still getting irate about the whole wrong positioning thing. If its your first time entering a big race where everyone starts in the wrong place, either due to poor organisation or inexperienced runners, then coming across such obstacles can be a surprise and an annoyance. But if you've done many such races before then you will know well that backmarkers will be part and parcel of such a race. And you can make your decision as to whether you want to enter such a race or not. Unless a better wave system based on previous times (like the mini-marathon) is introduced by organisers then this problem will always be a part of big race days.

If you didn't use that word, then I apologise, I thought it was you. I was reading the thread on the phone which can be hard enough sometimes.

I understand what you're saying, but the wave starts couldn't be more clearer. They are signposted, they are written about in all the documentation, the announcer states it over and over again. He actually said a couple of times that runners would be pushing you out of the way to get by!

It's not the people who follow the instructions who are in the wrong. It's the ones who don't. So the people who do follow the instructions properly should have to lose out by not entering. People should not be so ignorant and simply go where they should at the start. It would make for a more enjoyable race for everybody.

The_Boy_Wonder

chinguetti wrote: »

Folks, i've been running with a few years and done a few events with wave starts and plenty without wave starts. At every race, some people will always start in the wrong place, its human nature. And yes, i used to moan like hell about it too but after a while, you just shake your head and smile.

You can put the world of signs, announcements and notices but it doesn't make a difference. Some people are wrapped up in a ball of nerves or a world of their own that the Titanic could appear besides them at the start line and they wouldn't see it. You must remember that they probably have no clue what to do at a race as they are novices. Did we all learn to drive a car prefectly after one lesson? They will not learn until after doing a few races when the penny drops.

Fair comments. And every year there will be new competitors coming in making the same decision to start too far forward. It's just something that is going to happen. There is only so much the organisers can do. Every race worldwide with the same number of competitors will have the same issue really.

I enjoy these races as they were my introduction to running/racing. The first race series race I did had just 5/600 in it and the success of the race series for its organisation, location, timimg and everything else has brought many more entrants which is to be encouraged.

I've learned as much from starting too far back and a resulting weave, to now starting in about the right place (not too far behind the club vests) as my chip position and gun position in the race were almost the same.

fungirl1

I am far from an elite athlete -finished yesterday in 51 minutes. I have to agree re the waves. I went at the back of wave 2 and passed out hundreds of people...first mile was crazy....between walkers and people in big groups. Even for someone as slow as I am it's lots of running around people to make progress. I do think the wave signs are very small tho and if you weren't looking for them you probably wouldnt even see them.
Re tshirts - what was going on?? All the med small were gone... Now the proud owner of a large which is heading towards my knees!!

HelenAnne

pconn062 wrote: »

How is expecting people to start in the correct wave elitist? I mean I know that some of these people are beginners and it might be there first race but should we really question their intelligence so much as to suggest they can't follow simple instructions?

I don't think her problem was with people suggesting everyone should try to start in the right wave, I think (& the poster you're responding to can chip in if I'm wrong) she was upset at the disparaging way some people were talking about slower runners and joggers.

Re waves, I'd say, yes it's annoying when people start in the wrong wave. If they've done it by mistake then they probably won't do it a second time. if they've done it because of an inflated sense of their capabilities / because they think it gives some kind of advantage, then that's some people for you, I suppose.

I know I've said it before, but sometimes comments on threads in this forum can be read as very unwelcoming to beginners, especially women. I know it may not be intentional, but there are often comments about women's size / attire / speed etc that can make people who are just starting / just trying to get fit feel they are not welcome in the running community. (I'm not referring to any comments on this particular thread, I'm just saying I've read a lot of things like that in the Events forum when people talk about the big races.)

I'd say to all new runners (& I'm no expert myself!) that most runners will be encouraging to new people, and will want to share tips etc. We obviously all share the same hobby, so we've more in common with each other, whether we're running 10 minute miles or 5 minute miles, than we have with couch potatoes who wouldn't dream of going out for a walk / run / jog on a rainy night! Hope everyone enjoyed the race. I was supporting rather than running yesterday, and it was great to see the elites shooting off, for once, rather than being behind them.

eoinín

Name Changed wrote: »

I shouldn't have used the phrased "pushed out of the way". If there was a gap between runners that are jogging slowly or whatever, I'd make a dart through them which would sometimes cause a little contact, nothing that would physically move anybody or hurt anybody. I would never advocate that.

But you did advocate it in your original post!!!! That's what got me so annoyed in the first place. And now it turns out that you were only joking, that nobody was pushed and that actually you really dont mean to encourage others to use force in a race. :rolleyes:

>>sigh<<

I guess that's the problem with an internet discussion forum - you can never tell when a complete stranger is being sarcastic or taking the p**s. But can you see why I got annoyed? - you were encouraging the use of pushing, a real phenomenon which does occur in races and is incredibly rude, selfish and stressful.

Name Changed wrote: »

I wouldn't be an annoying slow coach in anybody's way.

That was my turn to be tongue in cheek!:) I just mean that unless you are the race winner or finish in exactly the position that you started the race in then you will be overtaken, often causing the person overtaking you a fraction of a second or so, even if you are trying to be helpful with your road position.

Name Changed wrote: »

Who said anything about Olympic times? If people want to get their pb's, seconds can make a difference. I train for races with the intention of breaking my best time for that race. I think I'm entitled to run the best race I can once I don't interfere with anybody else's race. Is that not fair?

That is fair, but in your post you have encouraged people to do the exact opposite and interfere with other people's races by "bursting through them". A pb is not so important that it should take preference over proper behavior and conduct. But you have since clarified that you in fact do not condone violence.

Name Changed wrote: »

The "elitists" as you call them.

Again that word... Did I actually use it anywhere?

willowthewisp

2 stars (poor)

Any pics from yesterday?

pconn062

4 stars (good)

eoinín wrote: »

It surprises me how irate experienced runners (not you in particular) seem to get at the "slow runner in wrong place" problem in big races. Surely this problem is not a new one and is well known. If it is so annoying to "serious" runners then they should either not enter these high profile popular races, or enter them but expect to encounter this congestion and have a slower time as a result. I'm not a hugely experienced runner but I know that these bigger races will not give me a pb. But nobody is forcing me to enter them - I enter for the atmosphere, the interesting course and above all the fun of the race. For most people there's more to running then what the clock says at the end of the race. If people are only interested in their time and nothing else then they should choose their races more carefully and go for the lower profile races that dont attract huge crowds of fun runners.

You-re missing a key point in my post, this isn't just an issue in "big" races, it happens in nearly every race, apart from those with a larger population of quicker runners such as the BHAA cross country races. So you're argument about experienced runners (your word, not mine) not entering these larger races doesn't really stand. For example I recently encountered the same problem in the Bohermeen 5k, a classic club run race where slower runners at the front was an issue again. And I don't see why more experienced quicker runners should have to avoid these large races, these races are for everybody, imagine someone tried to organise a race that excluded slow runners? But these arguments just go round and round so I'm going to bail out here, good luck in the rest of the race series if you decide to run it (just make sure you start in the right area! ).

Marthastew

4 stars (good)

Fantastic race in spite of the weather.
Congestion is always going to be an issue at these races and after every one of these races there are many many posts about it, nothing the organisers can do and it will always be an issue. After a while you get used to it and it doesn't bother you so much, besides it's always a good excuse if you don't get your PB:)

Special thanks to all the volunteers who gave up their morning making our race run so smoothly.

ultrapercy wrote: »

There were cash prizesfor top 20. Id say 3rd in this race got in the region of 300 to 400 euro. Every race is different tho and this one has a larger than normal prize pot.

Any idea how many prizes there were for each category? I can't find it on the website anywhere

pconn062

4 stars (good)

HelenAnne wrote: »

I don't think her problem was with people suggesting everyone should try to start in the right wave, I think (& the poster you're responding to can chip in if I'm wrong) she was upset at the disparaging way some people were talking about slower runners and joggers.

I appreciate that but none of those disparaging comments came from myself.

eoinín

pconn062 wrote: »

You-re missing a key point in my post, this isn't just an issue in "big" races, it happens in nearly every race, apart from those with a larger population of quicker runners such as the BHAA cross country races.

Fair enough, although that hasn't been my experience of smaller races - I don't really recall instances of congestion being an issue in races I've entered with ca. 200 people. Maybe I have been lucky. Or one of those causing the congestion.:)

liamog

3 stars (average)

So to sum up good event, usual feedback about waves, though better than last year due to the wider road. Weather was generally good with some rain helping to cool us off and speed us up in the second half.

A big thanks to all the Marshall's and we'll all remember to go up a site on the T Shirts from last year as they're a little on the small side.

daymobrew

3 stars (average)

With respect to small and medium t-shirts running out, the entry form could ask for the entrant's t-shirt size. Then they could produce enough, and then some.

I doubt that people are picking up the wrong size because they are in the first collection points.

fightireland

4 stars (good)

I must admit I have no complaints with the t-shirt. I chose a medium and it fits perfectly. I'll be wearing it tonight training!

However there is one really simple solution to this, The measurements for the shirts would have been provided by the manufacturers to the organisers when they were ordered. They could simply include these size guidelines somewhere on the site or form and would only take up 5 lines of internet space! Anybody know buys items online would be familiar with this and know how useful it can be, saying "make small a bit larger" does not really help...

hawkwing

3 stars (average)

willowthewisp wrote: »

Any pics from yesterday?

http://www.racepix.com/Phoenix-Park-5-Mile/pictures/760/

ofthelord

2 stars (poor)

No complaints about the race on Saturday. It was a bit congested for the first 1/2 mile or so but I think this helped me not to go out too fast which I tend to do to try & keep up with others. For a change I managed to finish pretty strongly & crossed the line in a chip time of 32:22. Was passing people for the whole 5 miles, especially on the slight hills the second half of the course which seemed to slow people considerably. Challenge now is to try & feel as good running right up to the marathon.

rasher_m

ofthelord wrote: »

No complaints about the race on Saturday. It was a bit congested for the first 1/2 mile or so but I think this helped me not to go out too fast which I tend to do to try & keep up with others. For a change I managed to finish pretty strongly & crossed the line in a chip time of 32:22. Was passing people for the whole 5 miles, especially on the slight hills the second half of the course which seemed to slow people considerably. Challenge now is to try & feel as good running right up to the marathon.

Ha...have to laugh at your 'slight hills'...dont know how you didnt win the race...when reading the comments from the male and female who won the races, they both described the hills as tough going and the weather as well.

ofthelord

2 stars (poor)

rasher_m wrote: »

ofthelord wrote: »

No complaints about the race on Saturday. It was a bit congested for the first 1/2 mile or so but I think this helped me not to go out too fast which I tend to do to try & keep up with others. For a change I managed to finish pretty strongly & crossed the line in a chip time of 32:22. Was passing people for the whole 5 miles, especially on the slight hills the second half of the course which seemed to slow people considerably. Challenge now is to try & feel as good running right up to the marathon.

Ha...have to laugh at your 'slight hills'...dont know how you didnt win the race...when reading the comments from the male and female who won the races, they both described the hills as tough going and the weather as well.

I'm very very far from winning any races! But I would run up Killiney hill road a couple of times most weeks so i do find the hills in the park to be ok.