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Getting stopped by the guards.

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13

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    #62
    ldxo15wus6fpgm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭ldxo15wus6fpgm


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    really , so if someone is up on a charge of not wearing a seat belt , they can be also charged with using irish when talking to a guard who only had the cupla focal ?

    What are you on about?
    I'm saying there's plenty of room for subjectivity in our legal system, it's all over the place!


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    #63
    Departed
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭Departed


    MagicSean wrote: »
    No it's not against the law to piss one off but it will often end badly. Gardaí have what's called a power of discretion. This means they can let the small things slide. You will find that their willingness to use this power evaporates in direct proportion to their level of annoyance.
    they are abusing their power if they let discretion slide cos they are annoyed


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    #64
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    Ricardo Lazy Wallboard wrote: »
    What are you on about?
    I'm saying there's plenty of room for subjectivity in our legal system, it's all over the place!

    within reason and context , within no context could electing to speak to a guard as gaeilge be construed as breaking the law , judge dredd couldnt make that charge stick


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    #65
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Battle - you've clearly missed the point.


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    #66
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    GCDLawstudent wrote: »
    Battle - you've clearly missed the point.

    and what is that ?


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    #67
    ldxo15wus6fpgm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭ldxo15wus6fpgm


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    within reason and context , within no context could electing to speak to a guard as gaeilge be construed as breaking the law , judge dredd couldnt make that charge stick

    Not at all, and no one said they could!

    I think what people in this thread are trying to say (perhaps in a bit of an aggressive manner) is that a Garda cannot and will not let you off the hook just because he doesn't speak your language.

    If a Garda pulls you over and you only speak Irish, and he can't understand you, he will end up having to either:

    a) wait for a Garda fluent in Irish to come to the scene, or
    b) take you to a station where an Irish speaking Garda (or an interpretor) is present.

    The same goes for German, Italian, Russian, Arabic etc.

    It's not an offence in any sense but it will create hassle and cause a lot of time to be wasted; therefore if you are purely speaking a language other than English to try to annoy/delay a Garda you are plain and simple being a twit.

    If you could speak both English and Irish why would you then insist on babbling away in Irish to a Garda who informs you that he can't understand you? It's one thing supporting your language, exercising rights etc., it's quite another to deliberately waste the time and money of the Gardai when you could very easily just speak in English.

    I would also stress that this inconvenience would almost definitely be mentioned to a judge if the matter is brought to court, and that judge will not look too kindly on you then talking to your solicitor in fluent English after creating all that hassle.


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    #68
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Its been said already. Delaying a guard by speaking Irish when you speak English is just being a moron.

    Now if you only speak Irish or you are someone that refuses to speak English in everyday life fair enough - but just using it to make the gardai's life difficult delays them and has the potential to see other crimes go an resolved.

    You also clearly don't understand the Irish Legal system - there are many subjective tests in Irish Law. The test egg shell thin skull rule is but one. Provocation is another... dont ask for any great detail on this though criminal law is next year...

    We're also a common law country - not only that the highest court in the land retains the power to depart from stare decisis unlike the Courts of England and Wales where we inherit our system from.

    One disagreement with the above poster is once you're in court on you go have your case in Irish. I know of one barrister that did this as she didn't want everyone understanding her case (she was a party to the case). She knew the judge had good Irish and even if he didn't once you have time to arrange things if you feel strongly about it and you have the language skills good on you. Doing it to a garda on a shift who has better things to do is pretty stupid.


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    #69
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    Ricardo Lazy Wallboard wrote: »
    Not at all, and no one said they could!

    I think what people in this thread are trying to say (perhaps in a bit of an aggressive manner) is that a Garda cannot and will not let you off the hook just because he doesn't speak your language.

    If a Garda pulls you over and you only speak Irish, and he can't understand you, he will end up having to either:

    a) wait for a Garda fluent in Irish to come to the scene, or
    b) take you to a station where an Irish speaking Garda (or an interpretor) is present.

    The same goes for German, Italian, Russian, Arabic etc.

    It's not an offence in any sense but it will create hassle and cause a lot of time to be wasted; therefore if you are purely speaking a language other than English to try to annoy/delay a Garda you are plain and simple being a twit.

    If you could speak both English and Irish why would you then insist on babbling away in Irish to a Garda who informs you that he can't understand you? It's one thing supporting your language, exercising rights etc., it's quite another to deliberately waste the time and money of the Gardai when you could very easily just speak in English.

    I would also stress that this inconvenience would almost definitely be mentioned to a judge if the matter is brought to court, and that judge will not look too kindly on you then talking to your solicitor in fluent English after creating all that hassle.


    no one ( including me ) has argued that a guard not being sufficently fluent in irish obsolves a motorist of wrongdoing , what some people ( excluding me ) are arguing is that chosing to speak irish is antagonistic and warrants legitimite reprisal by the guard on the motorist , that such a choice ( speaking irish ) is enough to place someone under the future microscope of an garda siochanna , i find this attitude abhorent


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    #70
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    GCDLawstudent wrote: »
    Its been said already. Delaying a guard by speaking Irish when you speak English is just being a moron.

    Now if you only speak Irish or you are someone that refuses to speak English in everyday life fair enough - but just using it to make the gardai's life difficult delays them and has the potential to see other crimes go an resolved.

    You also clearly don't understand the Irish Legal system - there are many subjective tests in Irish Law. The test egg shell thin skull rule is but one. Provocation is another... dont ask for any great detail on this though criminal law is next year...

    We're also a common law country - not only that the highest court in the land retains the power to depart from stare decisis unlike the Courts of England and Wales where we inherit our system from.

    One disagreement with the above poster is once you're in court on you go have your case in Irish. I know of one barrister that did this as she didn't want everyone understanding her case (she was a party to the case). She knew the judge had good Irish and even if he didn't once you have time to arrange things if you feel strongly about it and you have the language skills good on you. Doing it to a garda on a shift who has better things to do is pretty stupid.

    whether chosing to speak irish when you are bi lingual makes you a moron ( thats debatable ) is irrelevant , its not in itself remotley illegal


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    #71
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    No one has suggested it is which is why I say you've missed the point.

    Sitting there babbling in Polish until a garda fluent in polish turns up and the going "you know what its fine I speak english" is almost the same thing.

    I say almost because if you genuinely use Irish more than English in your everyday life then you are not necessarily being obstructive.


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    #72
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    GCDLawstudent wrote: »
    No one has suggested it is which is why I say you've missed the point.

    Sitting there babbling in Polish until a garda fluent in polish turns up and the going "you know what its fine I speak english" is almost the same thing.

    I say almost because if you genuinely use Irish more than English in your everyday life then you are not necessarily being obstructive.

    polish is not an offical language of the state so your analogy is bogus

    chosing to speak to a guard in irish is not obstructive under any legal defintion , a guard might arrest you for it and call it something else but you wont be charged or prosecuted for it


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    #73
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    No one has suggested it is. I think I have that macro'd at this point.

    English is also an official Language of the state.

    /sigh oh well I tried


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    #74
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    _pure_mule_ wrote: »
    (1)Does anyone here know can you video the guards( with your mobile phone) when stopped in you car? I know in America you can but does anyone know if it is legal to do so in Ireland?

    Why would you want to do this?


    (2)Also, what would happen if you spoke to a guard in Irish( as it is your right to do so) and they could not understand you? Would or could you be detained, even if you had not broken any laws.

    I'm sure the Gardai will make every effort facilitate you in providing a fluent irish speaker for you - either at the side of the road or at the nearest station.


    (3) Can a guard just make up something and arrest you on reasonable suspiscion? After all how can it be proven in a court of law that they did not have reasonable suspiscion? Thanks in advance guys:)

    Make something up and have reasonable suspicion?
    It's either one or the other. I'm sure that generally they don't make stuff up, perhaps the person being detained will make stuff up trying to defend themselves..

    that's all.


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    #75
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    There are three users who I am watching closely on this particular thread. Infractions will be next.


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    #76
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    ok , im off to bed early , been an interesting debate but i think il retire

    all the best


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    #77
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Tá mé ar cheann acu?

    Thats from google translate so if its says something rude its not meant to!

    Joking aside if I've come across or rude or agressive that was not my intention sorry to anyone offended.

    EDIT that should probably say rude towards anyone in particular...


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    #78
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    GCDLawstudent wrote: »
    Tá mé ar cheann acu?

    Thats from google translate so if its says something rude its not meant to!

    Joking aside if I've come across or rude or agressive that was not my intention sorry to anyone offended.

    EDIT that should probably say rude towards anyone in particular...

    you have not come across as rude or agressive :) , perhaps over eager to side with AGS unconditionally but then again thats pretty much commonplace around theese parts ;)


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    #79
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    LOL I think most of them are as lazy as sin - I just dont see this speeding them up! :P (That's meant in a good humoured way!)


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    #80
    _pure_mule_
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭_pure_mule_


    Ricardo Lazy Wallboard wrote: »
    Not at all, and no one said they could!

    I think what people in this thread are trying to say (perhaps in a bit of an aggressive manner) is that a Garda cannot and will not let you off the hook just because he doesn't speak your language.

    If a Garda pulls you over and you only speak Irish, and he can't understand you, he will end up having to either:

    a) wait for a Garda fluent in Irish to come to the scene, or
    b) take you to a station where an Irish speaking Garda (or an interpretor) is present.

    The same goes for German, Italian, Russian, Arabic etc.

    It's not an offence in any sense but it will create hassle and cause a lot of time to be wasted; therefore if you are purely speaking a language other than English to try to annoy/delay a Garda you are plain and simple being a twit.

    If you could speak both English and Irish why would you then insist on babbling away in Irish to a Garda who informs you that he can't understand you? It's one thing supporting your language, exercising rights etc., it's quite another to deliberately waste the time and money of the Gardai when you could very easily just speak in English.

    I would also stress that this inconvenience would almost definitely be mentioned to a judge if the matter is brought to court, and that judge will not look too kindly on you then talking to your solicitor in fluent English after creating all that hassle.
    is a garda legally entitled to 'bring' you to the station do you know?


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    #81
    ldxo15wus6fpgm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭ldxo15wus6fpgm


    _pure_mule_ wrote: »
    is a garda legally entitled to 'bring' you to the station do you know?

    Obviously, you can go voluntarily, although if there is a language barrier (pretend or otherwise) this mightn't happen.

    If a Garda suspects you have committed an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1961 he may demand information such as your name and address and if you fail to give this information or give information the Garda reasonably believes to be false you may be arrested without warrant.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec107


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    #82
    _pure_mule_
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭_pure_mule_


    Ricardo Lazy Wallboard wrote: »
    Obviously, you can go voluntarily, although if there is a language barrier (pretend or otherwise) this mightn't happen.

    If a Garda suspects you have committed an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1961 he may demand information such as your name and address and if you fail to give this information or give information the Garda reasonably believes to be false you may be arrested without warrant.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec107
    exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated:)


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    #83
    LostCovey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    Indricotherium wrote: »
    I think it's safe enough to assume this is because of the car he drives. I'm going to go out on a limb and say late ninties Honda civic. Loads of go faster bits stuck on it.

    Sin cad is doigh liom ar aon nós

    Tuigim.

    Fear beag, gluaisteáin beag, caipín baseball ar a ceann, agus píopa mór ag teach as thóin a ghluaisteáin, agus torann mór ag teacht as ineall beag, is gan níos mó ná piúnta unleaded san tainc.

    Nach iontach go bhfuil leagan gaéilge den boy racer seo ar fáil.


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    #84
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    GCDLawstudent wrote: »
    Delaying a guard by speaking Irish when you speak English is just being a moron.

    .

    Delaying anyone by speaking Irish when you speak English is just being a moron.


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    #85
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Delaying anyone by speaking Irish when you speak English is just being a moron.

    perhaps but does it deserve punishment or reprisal at a future date ? , that is the crux here


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    #86
    Kosseegan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Kosseegan


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    no one ( including me ) has argued that a guard not being sufficently fluent in irish obsolves a motorist of wrongdoing , what some people ( excluding me ) are arguing is that chosing to speak irish is antagonistic and warrants legitimite reprisal by the guard on the motorist , that such a choice ( speaking irish ) is enough to place someone under the future microscope of an garda siochanna , i find this attitude abhorent

    IOt is entirely a matter of manners and interpersonal relations. It can be obtuse to speak english on accasion. If you were to join a group of people conversing in Irish and start breaking into English that would be an unmannerly thing to do. It would most likely provoke animosity. It is generally unwise to provoke animosity needlessly, whether it is guards, shopkeepers or anybody else. The guards have numerous ways of discommoding people if they are of a mind to. A bulb goes when you are in mid journey in a car. You could stop, get out, take out a replacement bulb from your store and replace the bulb before continuing.
    You could, on the other hand continue with your journey and replace the bulb when you get around to it, maybe days later.
    If a guard comes upon you with a bulb gone, he can summons you or he can tell you to hurry up and get it sorted. It is entirely a matter for his discretion. Riling him up is going to increrase the chances that he will exercise hios discretion to issue a summons.
    Why do it?


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    #87
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    perhaps but does it deserve punishment or reprisal at a future date ? , that is the crux here

    Well if you are the person waiting for that Garda to show up at your robbed house then you might think so.


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    #88
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    Kosseegan wrote: »
    IOt is entirely a matter of manners and interpersonal relations. It can be obtuse to speak english on accasion. If you were to join a group of people conversing in Irish and start breaking into English that would be an unmannerly thing to do. It would most likely provoke animosity. It is generally unwise to provoke animosity needlessly, whether it is guards, shopkeepers or anybody else. The guards have numerous ways of discommoding people if they are of a mind to. A bulb goes when you are in mid journey in a car. You could stop, get out, take out a replacement bulb from your store and replace the bulb before continuing.
    You could, on the other hand continue with your journey and replace the bulb when you get around to it, maybe days later.
    If a guard comes upon you with a bulb gone, he can summons you or he can tell you to hurry up and get it sorted. It is entirely a matter for his discretion. Riling him up is going to increrase the chances that he will exercise hios discretion to issue a summons.
    Why do it?


    sorry , i dont share your attitude , thier is no rule of law which states its an offense to discomode a guard by electing to speak irish instead of english , in this context ( the one which matters most ) it is irrelevant as to whether such a manner is anti social , obnoxious or infuriating , many different people find many different things discomoding and irritating but when it comes to law enforcement , we cannot choose whats an offense and what isnt an offense based on personal subjective opinion


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    #89
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Well if you are the person waiting for that Garda to show up at your robbed house then you might think so.

    not sure i follow


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    #90
    tipp86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭tipp86


    If i was a member of the Gardai and the OP tried that on me i would for sure ensure that i went out of my way to find any issue with his car that may get him in trouble.

    Gardai in general dont want the bother of looking for any small issue wrong with a person/car. I could not count how many times in my first few years driving i could have been prosecuted for speeding, no tax etc.... yet the gardai after chatting for a bit with you will just let you off. If you attack them with attitude you can be as sure as hell your getting done.

    I was stopped last night in an english reg car with nothing on the windscreen. I just pulled up to the checkpoint and gave the gardai a nice hello and handed him my Papers from the Insurance company showing i can drive any car. He had a quick chat briefly metioned the english plates and sent me on my way.

    If i had went with attitude i could have been looking at my car been taken off me.


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    #91
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    perhaps but does it deserve punishment or reprisal at a future date ? , that is the crux here
    Yes, if you're doing it purely to be obstructive or obtuse about letting the Garda carry out his duty. If someone refuses to discuss a matter in their primary language (i.e. the one they typically use on a daily basis), then they are being deliberately obstructive and any future charges should reflect that.


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