Overeem Pulled Before Hearing. JDS V Mir

MrStuffins

Shazbot wrote: »

Technically, no. His samples showed an abnormal T:E ratio. It never stated what caused the change. He never tested positive for any PED. The evidence at had suggests PED but it's not the only explanation.

Unfortunately Overeem doesn't seem to be able to explain the abnormal result which leads us all the speculate PED. At the end of the day he didn't fail a drug test.

You're talking about a subtle difference that doesn't exist.

Just because they didn't find a PED in his system, does not mean he didn't fail the drugs test. The abnormally high level of Testosterone were enough for him to fail the test.

You can fail a drugs test in more than one way. And no matter what way you spin it, he failed the test.

MrStuffins

Spideog Rua wrote: »

I'm embarrassed for you.

Amazing :rolleyes:

Pure speculation on your part.

The only fact here is that he was denied a licence. He hasn't been banned because he didn't test positive for using PEDs.

There is also the small fact of him, you know, failing the test. Are you denying he failed a test?

No, it's not even similar. Carry on

Yes I think you'll find it's pretty similar.

Here's another question, do you actually believe the reasons he put forward in his defense?

MrStuffins

Shazbot wrote: »

To use your scenario. The murder weapon was found on him but that doesn't mean he used it. It's highly likely but not conclusive.

You misunderstood the scenario.

Completely!

Shazbot

MrStuffins wrote: »

You're talking about a subtle difference that doesn't exist.

What difference doesn't exist?

Just because they didn't find a PED in his system, does not mean he didn't fail the drugs test. The abnormally high level of Testosterone were enough for him to fail the test.

To be pedantic, we don't know if it was elevated testosterone, abnormally low epitestosterone or a combination of both.

You can fail a drugs test in more than one way. And no matter what way you spin it, he failed the test.

That's exactly my point. He failed a test based on T:E an has yet to adequately explain the discrepancy. I personally think he's guilty of performance enhancing.

Spideog Rua

MrStuffins wrote: »

Here's another question, do you actually believe the reasons he put forward in his defense?

The point is that 90% of people on this forum including the moderators have seen fit to be judge, jury and executioner. Speculation about steroid use and fighter bashing is against the forum charter yet, everyone including the moderators are happy enough to do it despite no factual evidence of PED use.

Whether i believe his explantion (reasons/excuses) is nothing to do with it.

MrStuffins

Shazbot wrote: »

What difference doesn't exist?

You're talking as if that, just because there was no PED present in his system at the time of testing, that he didn't fail the test. This difference doesn't exist.

To be pedantic, we don't know if it was elevated testosterone, abnormally low epitestosterone or a combination of both.

I hope you can now be realistic :P

That's exactly my point. He failed a test based on T:E an has yet to adequately explain the discrepancy. I personally think he's guilty of performance enhancing.

Yup. He failed the test. And he didn't have an excuse.

Or it was Tre Telligman's fault :P

Spideog Rua

Shazbot wrote: »

I personally think he's guilty of performance enhancing.

...but in the absence of evidence, we can't convict or slander.

MrStuffins

Spideog Rua wrote: »

The point is that 90% of people on this forum including the moderators have seen fit to be judge, jury and executioner. Speculation about steroid use and fighter bashing is against the forum charter yet, everyone including the moderators are happy enough to do it despite no factual evidence of PED use.

Whether i believe his explantion (reasons/excuses) is nothing to do with it.

And you're embarrassed for me? :rolleyes:

MrStuffins

Spideog Rua wrote: »

...but in the absence of evidence, we can't convict or slander.

Unless he has already failed some sort of examination to determine whether his body was under the influence of some sort of performance enhancing drugs or has shown tell tale signs that these drugs had been present in the body previously.

Spideog Rua

MrStuffins wrote: »

And you're embarrassed for me? :rolleyes:

Take off the blinkers mate, engage the brain and think about it a little. What PED was he caught for? None. Carry on regardless

MrStuffins

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Take off the blinkers mate, engage the brain and think about it a little. What PED was he caught for? None. Carry on regardless

Good man! You have the case cracked!

You have no other option but to bring this groundbreaking evidence to the attention on the relevent commissions.

Spideog Rua

MrStuffins wrote: »

Good man! You have the case cracked!

You have no other option but to bring this groundbreaking evidence to the attention on the relevent commissions.

Finally, you understand. There is no evidence.

Maybe the mods will actually step in now and prevent further breaches of the forum charter, until some actual evidence of PED use come out rather than idle speculation which is what the charter was supposed to prevent in the first place.

"It's always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth. I don't really know what the truth is. I don't suppose anybody will ever really know. " -12 Angry Men

Shazbot

MrStuffins wrote: »

You're talking as if that, just because there was no PED present in his system at the time of testing, that he didn't fail the test. This difference doesn't exist.

True. My original point was that there was no banned substance in him at the time but evidence to suggest he was using PED (which is what this particular test is based on). I think that's what Spideog is getting at. I was trying to explain that (albeit poorly) not that I agree with it. There's enough evidence for cheating to justify dropping him from the fight and getting a ban.

I hope you can now be realistic :P

Of course

Yup. He failed the test. And he didn't have an excuse.

He does have an excuse. He said he was taking anti-inflammatory medication that was mixed with testosterone. He said he wasn't aware of it. I don't buy his excuse.

MrStuffins

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Finally, you understand. There is no evidence.

Maybe the mods will actually step in now and prevent further breaches of the forum charter, until some actual evidence of PED use come out rather than idle speculation which is what the charter was supposed to prevent in the first place.

"It's always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth. I don't really know what the truth is. I don't suppose anybody will ever really know. " -12 Angry Men

Can you answer my question now please?

Did Alastair Overeem fail a pre-fight drugs/doping test?

Shazbot

MrStuffins wrote: »

Can you answer my question now please?

Did Alastair Overeem fail a pre-fight drugs/doping test?

Yes.

MrStuffins

Shazbot wrote: »

He does have an excuse. He said he was taking anti-inflammatory medication that was mixed with testosterone. He said he wasn't aware of it. I don't buy his excuse.

I didn't mean that he literally didn't have an excuse. I meant his excuse his so poor it might as well not exist!

Ush1

MrStuffins wrote: »

Can you answer my question now please?

Did Alastair Overeem fail a pre-fight drugs/doping test?

It's just a T/E ratio test.

There is another type of test(Carbon-Isotope Ratio test) which can be done to show if the test in his body was natural or chemical, but as far as I know they never ran that test.

MrStuffins

Shazbot wrote: »

Yes.

sorry man, that was aimed at the other poster. I forgot to quote.

MrStuffins

Ush1 wrote: »

It's just a T/E ratio test.

No, he failed a doping test by verture of having a high T/E ratio. A subtle but important difference.


Although i'm completely open to correction if you can link me to some more information?

Ush1

MrStuffins wrote: »

No, he failed a doping test by verture of having a high T/E ratio. A subtle but important difference.


Although i'm completely open to correction if you can link me to some more information?

You could be right there but I suppose the point is that he had this ratio which made it highly likely he was using something artificial to boost his testosterone. He then admitted it by saying it was an injection his doctor gave him.

I think we can all agree it was a rubbish excuse.

cowzerp

I'm strict on accusations and if people have not failed tests accusations are not allowed, spidog rua has tool a week break for back seat modding and not taking the warning on board.

Overeem failed the test end of.

jayteecork

Ah well it's always a pleasure watching Frank Mir fight someone above-average.

He's the new Keith Jardine to me.

MrStuffins

If Frank Mir becomes HW Champion it just shows how bad the current HW situation is!

El Guapo!

MrStuffins wrote: »

If Frank Mir becomes HW Champion it just shows how bad the current HW situation is!

Very true.
The HW division seriously needs some new blood injected into it.

jayteecork

Dean09 wrote: »

MrStuffins wrote: »

If Frank Mir becomes HW Champion it just shows how bad the current HW situation is!

Very true.
The HW division seriously needs some new blood injected into it.

You guys serious it's very competitive.

Remember the dark days of Tim Sylvia when a small man was able to become the champ.

Now he have DOS Santos, Cain, Werdum, the skyscraper, mark hunt, the guy who beat the grave digger the other night

El Guapo!

jayteecork wrote: »

You guys serious it's very competitive.

Remember the dark days of Tim Sylvia when a small man was able to become the champ.

Now he have DOS Santos, Cain, Werdum, the skyscraper, mark hunt, the guy who beat the grave digger the other night

Out of that list I'd only highly rate JDS and Cain.
I think Werdum is over-rated, Hunt is probably not a serious contender anymore, Struve doesn't seem to be good enough, Travis Brown looked good last week but we'll have to see how he does from now on. I don't think he's a contender either.
It's not the division it could be imo.

MrStuffins

jayteecork wrote: »

You guys serious it's very competitive.

Remember the dark days of Tim Sylvia when a small man was able to become the champ.

Now he have DOS Santos, Cain, Werdum, the skyscraper, mark hunt, the guy who beat the grave digger the other night

Lol! I thought you proved our point when you put The Skyscraper in there but including Mark Hunt just cemented it! You do realise that up until he beat Chris Tuchschererrerrrcherr that he hadn't won a fight in 5 years right?

I'm not saying it's worse than the bad old days, but it's still in an aweful state!

Mellor

Spideog Rua wrote: »

What PED was he caught for?

Exogenous Testosterone.
He admitted this at the hearing. Reason being his doctor, regardelss if that true or not, its a banned PED.

Shazbot wrote: »

To be pedantic, we don't know if it was elevated testosterone, abnormally low epitestosterone or a combination of both.

He admitted that he injected testosterone, ergo, It's safe to assunme it was elevated test. Unless he was lying, in which case, he still was takign PEDs

Shazbot wrote: »

True. My original point was that there was no banned substance in him at the time

Yes there was. Exogenous testosterone.

He does have an excuse. He said he was taking anti-inflammatory medication that was mixed with testosterone. He said he wasn't aware of it. I don't buy his excuse.

It doesn't matter if you buy that not not. It's still against the rules. even if he is the victim in his story.

Ush1 wrote: »

It's just a T/E ratio test.

There is another type of test(Carbon-Isotope Ratio test) which can be done to show if the test in his body was natural or chemical, but as far as I know they never ran that test.

It doesn't matter that they never ran it, he admitted it.


Basically they don't have the full picture, but the excuse he gave is against the rules and he is technically a PED. Can't apply for 9 months.

jayteecork

MrStuffins wrote: »

Lol! I thought you proved our point when you put The Skyscraper in there but including Mark Hunt just cemented it! You do realise that up until he beat Chris Tuchschererrerrrcherr that he hadn't won a fight in 5 years right?

I'm not saying it's worse than the bad old days, but it's still in an aweful state!

What the feck are you on?

Dos Santos is probably the most talented HW champ ever, Cain isn't far behind.

I'm pretty sure when SF was bought out by Zuffa the general consensus here was the HW division is now stacked and there's loads of top fighters with plenty of great bouts in store, I.m pretty sure you were part of this consensus, Stuffins.

Aside from that I think the skyscraper has been improving leaps and bounds, Big Country is always fun to watch, Werdum looks legit, and I'm looking forward to Cain/Bigfoot cause I don't think one bad performance can distract from a guy who annilhilated Fedor and Arlovski.

We also have the SF HW GP final this month (finally)

Either you guys are trolling or I dunno what, this is the best HW division ever.
Why is the main card of 146 Hw only?
Cause it's a feckin exciting division right now, that's why.

You want Sylvia v Alovski or Mir versus WES SIMS again?

Mellor

the HW divisions has always been bad. Basically, there were always few athletes and the rest were mostly guys who had no reason to be in shape due to the 265 upper limit.

It's not as stacked as say LW but its probably the best it has been in a long time. (imagine if Overreem didn't cheat/test positive and Lesnar was never sick). After 146 will have a idea of the true state of the division.