Overeem Pulled Before Hearing. JDS V Mir

insanity50

dana teeted it

madness, four days before hearing, wtf like



mir v jds

cain v big foot

Logical Fallacy

Obviously Overeem has been unable to provide enough to the UFC for them to have any faith that he will get licensed.

The question now is will he get cut?

Patrick Quinn

insanity50 wrote: »

dana teeted it

madness, four days before hearing, wtf like



mir v jds

cain v big foot

who roy nelson going fight now

Leeg17

Wiki has it as Nelson vs. Bigfoot, heard Werdum is in for a fight against Cain

scudzilla

Leeg17 wrote: »

Wiki has it as Nelson vs. Bigfoot, heard Werdum is in for a fight against Cain

Don't listen to Wiki, i can change it at any time, anybody can edit

dafee

Well who really thought there would be viable excuse anyway? I'm sure there are possible reasons etc but either way, if this fight had gone ahead it would have been a joke. I'd love to have seen the fight as much as anyone else but 14:1 TE ratio is insane.

Still interested in what he has to say though. From what I've read they're going for the aul "Epitestosterone was abnormally low for X reason, testosterone was not abnormally high". Too many stars aligned at this stage for Overeem though.

Physique + dodgy tests/conditional licence in December + 14:1 TE ratio now = innocence?!

Mellor

dafee wrote: »

. From what I've read they're going for the aul "Epitestosterone was abnormally low for X reason, testosterone was not abnormally high".

Well if that was the case he'd be vindicated. But there's was no way his test wasnt through the roof.

JohnMc1

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Obviously Overeem has been unable to provide enough to the UFC for them to have any faith that he will get licensed.

The question now is will he get cut?

I doubt they'll cut him. He's a big name after beating Brock. Dana is a hothead but he's not going to hand a star to the competition.

jayteecork

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Obviously Overeem has been unable to provide enough to the UFC for them to have any faith that he will get licensed.

The question now is will he get cut?

I doubt they'll cut him. He's a big name after beating Brock. Dana is a hothead but he's not going to hand a star to the competition.

What competition? Bellator? I doubt overeem would fight multiple fights for a mere hundred grand.

Zuffa.have basically monopolized MMA. The sooner Congress step in on anti competition grounds the better cause things will only get worse

pauldoo

jayteecork wrote: »

What competition? Bellator? I doubt overeem would fight multiple fights for a mere hundred grand.

Zuffa.have basically monopolized MMA. The sooner Congress step in on anti competition grounds the better cause things will only get worse

i think its better Zuffa have it all, from a fans point of view anyway. At least we can see the vast majority of fights we want. Imagine putting up with the crap like haye v kiltscko and Mayweather v Pacman, it would be terrible.

Overeem could get cut. Dana was saying in an interview that he needs to clamp down on this and nip it in the bud. Cutting overeem would send out a serious message. Overeem has cost the UFC with this test and hes tainted now

JohnMc1

Here's an update from Fighter's Only:

News via Fighter's Only:
The decision to remove Alistair Overeem from next week’s bout with Junior Dos Santos was not the Dutchman’s. Overeem’s team had been “one hundred per cent” confident that he would be able to get a license for the UFC 146 title shot against Junior Dos Santos.

That was despite him failing a random urine test administered by surprise late March. The Nevada State Athletic Commission test found Overeem’s testosterone/epitestosterone ratio to be 14:1 - they allow an upper limit of 6:1.

Nonetheless Overeem was sure his “reasonable explanation” would satisfy the commission at next week’s license application hearing. Fighters Only sources say that Overeem was to present paperwork to show he had been undergoing Testosterone Replacement Therapy.

As TRT is classed as a medication he wouldn’t need to declare it until his license application and so he was under no obligation to reveal it when the random test was administered in March, although NSAC may find it curious that anyone legitimately undergoing TRT wouldn’t bother mentioning it.

...

Now he will not be proceeding with his license application - but there may still be trouble ahead for him. According to NSAC regulation NAC 467.014 Application for license: Request for withdrawal:

1. An applicant for a license may file a written request with the Commission to withdraw his or her application at any time before final action upon the application by the Commission.

2. In making a determination on a request to withdraw an application, the Commission may, in its discretion:

(a) Deny the request; or

(b) Grant the request with or without prejudice.

3. If the request for withdrawal is granted with prejudice, the applicant is not eligible to apply again for licensing until 1 year after the date the Commission grants the request.

And so if Overeem’s request to have his license application disregarded is seen as particularly suspicious, he may end up being banned from Nevada for a year anyway. However, the chances are that his application will be quietly terminated and this clause will not be brought into play.

JohnMc1

jayteecork wrote: »

What competition? Bellator? I doubt overeem would fight multiple fights for a mere hundred grand.

Zuffa.have basically monopolized MMA. The sooner Congress step in on anti competition grounds the better cause things will only get worse

Bellator, the new K-1 Global [I doubt Golden Glory would sign him to their Glory World Series event] and Maeda just revived RINGS in Japan. Overeem was red hot [sorry for the pun given the situation] after beating Brock so any of these leagues getting him gives them instant credibility.

scudzilla

Tweet from Dana...

Don't believe any of the BS you read on the internet. Cain is fighting Bigfoot Silva May 26th in Vegas

TherapyBoy

JohnMc1 wrote: »

...Fighters Only sources say that Overeem was to present paperwork to show he had been undergoing Testosterone Replacement Therapy.

I really wish that you couldn't use TRT at all without being banned Anyone who needs TRT in the real world for legitimate reasons will find it hard to build muscle like these guys do, and find it hard to motivate themselves to train like they do. If your testosterone level is low for whatever reason & you want to be a pro mma athlete, you shouldn't be allowed a usage exemption.

JohnMc1

TherapyBoy wrote: »

JohnMc1 wrote: »

...Fighters Only sources say that Overeem was to present paperwork to show he had been undergoing Testosterone Replacement Therapy.

I really wish that you couldn't use TRT at all without being banned Anyone who needs TRT in the real world for legitimate reasons will find it hard to build muscle like these guys do, and find it hard to motivate themselves to train like they do. If your testosterone level is low for whatever reason & you want to be a pro mma athlete, you shouldn't be allowed a usage exemption.

Nobody under 35 (that's the minimum age to actually be eligible for it) should be getting TRT. Overeem is only 33. How can he with a straight face say his his test levels dropped that much in 3 years that he needs it?

TherapyBoy

I've been taking it for over ten years legitimately & I'm 30?

roro1neil0

Lads Testosterone replacement therapy can be prescribed for a range of different diseases/conditions and syndromes. These can stem from people that were born with a congenital problem in producing testosterone to people that took too many anabolic steroids as a young adult and had testosterone deficiency later in life.

TherapyBoy

roro1neil0 wrote: »

Lads Testosterone replacement therapy can be prescribed for a range of different diseases/conditions and syndromes. These can stem from people that were born with a congenital problem in producing testosterone to people that took too many anabolic steroids as a young adult and had testosterone deficiency later in life.

What I was trying to say is that anyone who is on TRT because of something they were born with would be unable to train enough, let alone compete professionally. And that anyone who was on TRT because of a choice they made years before shouldn't be allowed to compete professionally.

roro1neil0

TherapyBoy wrote: »

What I was trying to say is that anyone who is on TRT because of something they were born with would be unable to train enough, let alone compete professionally. And that anyone who was on TRT because of a choice they made years before shouldn't be allowed to compete professionally.

what i am saying is there is about 100 things where TRT could be justified and as neither of know why TRT is prescribed to Henderson or Sonnen we are not in a position to judge.

p to the e

Interview with the NSAC director Keith Kizer. It's a long one (that's probably what she said).

Sherdog.com: How, why and when did you take the helm in Nevada?
Kizer: I was the attorney for the commission for quite a few years. I also was the lead attorney for the Nevada Gaming Commission and Nevada State Gaming Control Board. And then, when Marc Ratner left to go to the UFC in May of 2006, he had asked if I was interested in replacing him here, and I said that I was.

Sherdog.com: Were you around when the commission began experimenting with drug testing for MMA fighters in 2001?
Kizer: Yes. I actually started working with the commission in late 1997 and got really involved starting in the spring of ’98. So, yeah, [I was] here, not just for the drug testing but, in fact, the whole creation of regulations for the sport of mixed martial arts.

Sherdog.com: What do you remember about those times? Initially, the commission was seeking to simply get an idea of what was in MMA fighters’ systems, more than to penalize them.
Kizer: Exactly. That was something I wasn’t too involved [in]; that was more of a medical thing. One of the commissioners at the time, Dr. Flip Homansky, was kind of taking the lead on that one and doing some testing of the fighters and seeing what kind of policy we could derive from that. At the beginning, actually, when they first started doing it, I believe there weren’t any penalties attached at all. It was basically kind of a fact find. Then it kind of got into what was called a period of leniency, where we had a situation where the suspensions, if any, would be short-term, and the fines, if any, would be a small percentage of the total purse. What they were looking for was … if [fighters] had a habit, they’re kicking the habit, or if they weren’t being vigilant, they were going to be vigilant. We were looking for some sort of remorse -- perhaps that’s too strong of a term -- and sometimes we got it and sometimes we didn’t get it, and that kind of dictated whether the leniency would sink in. But even then, it might be a situation where we might give a guy a nine-month suspension, but the fine would be zero percent or it would only be 10 percent or something like that; or, on the flip side, it might be a situation where the fine might be more than that, but the suspension might only be four or five or six months; or it might be a situation even where both those things were shortened a great deal, and that was kind of the case for a couple of years, maybe a few years. We kind of got any bugs out, if any, during that pre-period of leniency with the testing and then the period of leniency to kind of get the message out, and it’s worked fairly well. And now we’re at the point where things have ratcheted up as far as fine amounts or suspension lengths, but that is a situation where no one is to blame but the athlete.

Sherdog.com: Was there pushback from promoters who feared losing their main events over drug testing?
Kizer: Never had that. It was more of a money issue because [with] fight night drug tests, the promoters have to pay. It was more of a situation like that: “Well, wait, I got another $3,000 or $2,000 [to pay]?” Actually, back then it was much cheaper than that because we didn’t test as many people as you test now. It might be a situation where you have another $1,000 being sought from the promoter and for some of these smaller fights that’s a big deal, so that was it more so than anything else.

Sherdog.com: You said early on commissioners were looking for remorse from athletes. Is remorse still an important thing for a fighter to show when they appear before the commission?
Kizer: I think it helps. I’m not sure if it necessarily would translate into a lesser fine or a lesser suspension, but I think it does translate into, I think, some sort of good will and forgiveness from the fans, which may be more important. I think it also translates into good will from the officials going forward, be it the Nevada commission or another commission going forward, when the athlete has done his or her time and is coming back to the sport.

Sherdog.com: As fighters have been able to afford higher-profile attorneys, has it gotten more difficult to get admissions and remorse like that out of fighters?
Kizer: Hard to know. It’s a situation where we had, probably at the beginning of all this, we kind of had three different defenses, and it’s still the three you probably see most often anywhere. One is, “Hey, look, I’m completely innocent, and this test must be wrong.” That was seen a lot more in the earlier days when people were trying to challenge the tests and took the approach of, “Hey, look, he’s completely clean. This test is wrong. We want to investigate the tests. We want to have a B sample tested; we want this, we want that.” And the tests were always verified. It was a situation where that’s not … the cause of the positive test, that the test itself messed up. It’s so slim it’s almost not even worth checking on, so then, it really comes down to the other two arguments; either a “Yeah, I did it. You caught me. I’m sorry. I’m here to take my punishment” or kind of the middle ground, which is probably the most common one still, and that is, “Well, it somehow got in my system, but I don’t know how. I must have taken something I shouldn’t have taken. I didn’t know. I still don’t know what it could have been” or “I do know now what it is, though I didn’t tell you about it before.”

Sherdog.com: How is the Nevada Athletic Commission funded?
Kizer: We’re funded from the general fund. The state itself gives us money from the general fund in our budget for every fiscal year.

Sherdog.com: You’re not also funded by taxes on live gates and pay-per-views and things like that?
Kizer: That’s the funding we collect and send to the state. None of that money goes to us directly. The amount of money we raise makes no difference on the amount of money we get. There’s no direct correlation there.

Sherdog.com: What’s the budget roughly every year?
Kizer: Probably about $600,000 to $700,000, somewhere around there, give or take $50K.

Sherdog.com: How much are different commission personnel paid?
Kizer: Inspectors, unfortunately, are by far the lowest-paid. They get paid $75 an event. It doesn’t matter if this event is a 10-hour event or a three-hour event. It doesn’t matter if it’s a pay-per-view from the Mandalay Bay Events Center or if it’s some club show in a ballroom in a smaller casino. And that’s something we’ve tried over the years to get the pay increased for them, and it just isn’t going to happen or hasn’t happened. And it’s going to be tough in this economy for it to happen any time soon. It’s unfortunate. It’s almost like a hobby, a labor of love for them. And with the judges, referees and timekeepers … we have our smaller shows, and they get about $200, $250 for smaller shows. Now, for the bigger shows in MMA, a pay-per-view of a UFC caliber, all the refs would get $1,200 and judges I believe get $950 and timekeepers about $600. So there’s a little bit more money in those situations, and, of course, [with] shows in-between, the pay would be somewhere in between. But, yeah, compared to what an NFL referee makes, it’s very little in that regard. In boxing, the pay structure’s a little different. It’s a little more widespread, where the ref at the top of the card might make $8,000, while the refs on the bottom of the card are only making $600, say for a [Floyd] Mayweather [Jr.] card. So there’s a bigger gap there, disparity, as opposed to UFC, where everybody’s making $1,200.

Sherdog.com: Take us through a typical drug testing routine on a fight weekend.
Kizer: The day of the fight, that’s when the drug testing usually is done, though we do, of course, do out-of-competition testing, as well. But in that situation, what would happen is the inspectors or a representative from the lab that acts as our agent will come to the athlete [and conduct] the pre-fight test when they get there at the arena that night. And usually fighters get there about anywhere from 90 minutes to maybe three hours before their fight, depending when they’re fighting on the card and when they’re there. But they’re usually there no later than 90 minutes before their fight. They’ll get there, and then, if they have a urine test they have to provide, they’ll provide it at that time to either the inspector or the drug testing collector. We try to do that as soon as they can, so not only can we check it off our list but also the fighter can then get ready for his fight. There will actually be two post-fight exams. The doctor will then decide in the dressing room whether or not to give the fighter any type of medical suspension or medical requirement. The fighter gets paid and then also the fighter has to do a post-fight drug test. We try to get that done as soon as they’re ready to urinate and can get done with that test so they can go shower and get ready for the press conference.

Sherdog.com: How long does it take to get a sample back?
Kizer: The lab usually comes out [and] picks them up directly from the fights. So they’ll send a courier out, they’ll come get the stuff [and] go back to the lab. It usually depends on how many samples there are and how many fights we have that weekend. Sometimes, we’re testing upwards of 50 people, depending if we have three fights or something that weekend. But, usually, about a week is general rule of thumb. Sometimes, it might take a couple days. Sometimes, I’ve gotten them early. Sometimes, on Monday, I have some results coming back rather quickly, but, usually, it’s about a week out.

Sherdog.com: How many folks does the commission have to collect samples?
Kizer: Well, inspectors, we have probably about ... [at] any given show, there’s probably about 10 inspectors working the show. And like I said, a lot of times now, starting last September, we now have a professional drug collecting agency or company that comes out. And they usually send one or two people out to do the testing or do the collecting on that, too.

Rick Rosen/WENN

Kizer (left) and Marc Ratner circa 2006.
Sherdog.com: Why doesn’t the commission do blood tests along with urine tests?
Kizer: Well, it depends. Sometimes, we have done blood tests. It just depends on what we’re looking for.

Sherdog.com: Why not do blood tests as a matter of course, as you do urine?
Kizer: Well, the testing that we’re basically doing fight night, especially with the steroids, the urine test is the one that’s going to catch you.

Sherdog.com: But you can’t get an absolute concentration of testosterone from a urine sample. Only blood will tell you if an athlete is within normal testosterone range for someone his age, and there’s a whole lot more you can tell only from blood, such as EPO and other types of doping.
Kizer: Oh, yeah, that’s why I said it depends on what you’re testing for, but steroids is, generally ... you’re wrong. Urine is the preferred method of testing for steroids; it stays in your system a lot longer, a lot longer. But there are certain things, yeah, if we’re looking for someone’s total testosterone, we’ll test them for blood, and we’ve done that.

Sherdog.com: Why not all the time? Why not always know what someone’s total testosterone is? That seems to me to be a very consistent indicator of whether someone’s fighting clean.
Kizer: Right. I can tell you the urine testing is what we do as a matter of course. Again, we’re not just looking for testosterone. You don’t want to just test somebody for testosterone. You want to test them for steroids, masking agents, diuretics, and, so, you need urine for that. So that kind of gives you the whole ball of wax. So that helps a lot. But, you know, if there was a need to test for total testosterone, we could do that, as well. But, as a matter of course, that’s something that makes it going beyond a matter of course, having guys give blood. I personally don’t think it’s necessarily a good idea to jab a needle in a guy’s arm just before he gets in the ring.

Sherdog.com: Is that really what it comes down to?
Kizer: I think it’s part of it, yeah … I think the first thing might be the fact that the risk to the athlete’s greater by jabbing the needle in his arm. We actually had this discussion in a public meeting about two years ago, and that was definitely one of the concerns raised. What happens if you knick a vein, or you get some kind of hematoma in the guy’s arm as you’re testing them for blood? So there’s a concern there on the safety thing. That’s probably one of the bigger things but also the fact that there’s so much more you can get from the urine. Yeah, you could do both, as well, but that doesn’t lessen the safety risks. But blood is always an option.

Sherdog.com: I understand the state recently upped your budget to pay for out-of-competition drug tests?
Kizer: Yes, we did, just with this fiscal year, in fact. Last fiscal year we basically had nothing. It was definitely nothing I wanted to broadcast out there to let the athletes know that, but now our legislature was very kind and understood the concern and was able to fund it, not just this fiscal year but next fiscal year, as well.

Sherdog.com: Alistair Overeem was given a surprise, out-of-competition test on March 27 at the UFC press conference. Why did the commission do that?
Kizer: That’s just a situation that kind of came out of this. I had done that once before, I think in July, the beginning of the fiscal year, where we had a couple boxers here for a press conference. Starting in September, as I mentioned before, we now have an agency; I think it’s only 20 bucks extra a test, so it’s very cheap for the promoter. So I checked with the agency first to find out, “Can you come to the press conference at the MGM [Grand] on that day?” They said, “No problem.” I gave them a time to show up; actually, I thought the press conference was going to end about a half hour later than it did, but it was a shorter press conference than I thought. So the guys had to wait around a little bit, but not very long, 10 minutes or so, until the collector came. And then they were all kind of held in the back until the collector came. Then they all went up to the hotel room where he was based out of and gave their urine samples. We were going to have Overeem tested anyway because of the condition from his 2011 license, but it got to the point where I found out [about the press conference]. So that was the first thing, when I found out, “Oh, there’s going to be a press conference. Oh, Overeem’s going to be there. Oh, good, I can actually send ... instead of relying on him going to a lab and giving the urine sample, I can send the lab to him. Makes it easier on him, and it makes it easier on me.” But, then, it kind of begged the question to myself of, “Well, if he’s going to be there and there are five other guys there, why not have him do the other five?” So I let the chairman know that -- that that was my plan. He said that’s a great plan, go forward with it; and we got it done.

Sherdog.com: Overeem missed commission-imposed deadlines for his December drug test, yet he was granted a conditional license to face Brock Lesnar. Why wasn’t he simply denied a license?
Kizer: That was definitely an option. They made him come before the commission, be on the hearing via the telephone there and answer some very tough questions. That was definitely something where he needed to prove to them that they should still give him a license. And he actually did a very good job at that meeting, and the commission gave him a license but conditioned it. He had another test that was done even before the fight when he got here in Nevada. Of course, we did the normal [tests on fight night], but there was also two tests he needed to do within the six months after the fight. This one [at the press conference] was the first, so there’s still one pending, if it’s even necessary. So, yeah, that was something where … he had to go through the ringer for that one.

Sherdog.com: A bit of hay has been made about the fact that Overeem’s license to fight in Nevada expired Dec. 31, 2011, so he wasn’t a licensed fighter when you tested him in March. You’ve said the commission was within its right to test Overeem since he was being advertised as fighting in your jurisdiction. Why can a promoter promote someone as fighting in Nevada before that fighter is licensed?
Kizer: Well, it’s all contingent on getting the person licensed. Let’s say, for example, a promoter promoted somebody saying, “I know this guy’s not going to be available and I know he’s not going to come and fight here, but I’m going to put him on the marquee anyway.” And then five days before the fight or a week before the fight or something, [they] pull him off. And that’s prohibited. So they have to have some sort of agreement between the promoter and the fighter that he is going to appear on that card. Now, injuries do happen sometimes, and other things might get in the way. [The fighter] might have a personal tragedy where he needed to pull out of the fight, and that’s understandable with proof. But, for the most part, that’s an ongoing obligation on the promoter to make sure that that does not occur -- false advertising.

Sherdog.com: Why doesn’t a promoter make sure a guy is licensed before he’s promoted as fighting?
Kizer: Well, the licensing requirements, the medical requirements that come into play, as long as we get those before the weigh-in and in ample time to review them, that’s not a problem. So there’s no need to get licensed, let’s say, in February, when you’re fighting in May. If you want to -- you can get licensed that early -- you can, but, logistically, there’s no need to be licensed that early.

Sherdog.com: Overeem has, since the drug test, applied for a fight license in Nevada, correct? Or, the UFC applied on his behalf?
Kizer: Yes. The UFC usually collects all the materials for their fighters and then ships them to us. Sometimes, with smaller cards like club cards, the fighter might actually come in or mail it in or actually come in in-person and deliver the stuff himself. Sometimes, fighters get licensed even though they have no fights [and] they have no contractual obligations with promoters. They’ll get licensed so they’re ready to go. Most people probably get licensed the week of the fight.

Sherdog.com: Has Overeem applied for a Therapeutic Use Exemption from the commission?
Kizer: Has not.

Sherdog.com: If I want permission to use testosterone from Nevada, what do I have to do?
Kizer: Well, [with] any kind of therapeutic use exemption, not just limited to testosterone, you need to contact the commission; we need to get communications open with your treating physician. So that would be a situation where the fighter’s obligated through his or her physician to get us all the necessary documentation and the requests. In other words, Doctor X is saying, “I’m treating this athlete for this condition; here’s the treatment plan. This treatment plan would not put the fighter at undue risk, would not give him or her an unfair advantage. Here’s the labs that I’ve done to kind of confirm, that confirm the diagnosis.” [They] send it to us, we run it by our doctor, our doctor goes through it and sees that it might be a situation where he may say, “That seems like a very overly-aggressive treatment plan.” Or it might be a situation where the doctor will say, you know, “That drug is not safe enough to use in competition, so you need to change the plan that way.” Or again, you have to lower the levels, perhaps of the Adderall that you’re taking. Adderall is one that I know I’ve seen before, where in certain normal dosages it may be [an] unfair, not [an] unfair, undue risk for the fighter to use it during competition. So you have to lower [the dosage] or use a different drug during the competition phase. So all that stuff comes into play, and that’s kind of the starting point and it’s also kind of the important part -- is the medicals. And then our doctor, he might have the fighter do additional testing; he may have the fighter provide additional documentation; he’ll talk with the doctor, communicate with the doctor from the fighter, so all that comes into play. And then, sometimes, the TUE could be granted under some very specific conditions or it could be denied.

Sherdog.com: What kind of turnaround time is there in a fighter getting a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ on a TUE request?
Kizer: I can’t talk specific to Alistair. But a fighter, in general, getting us all that information, I mean, it’s not a quick process. But it’s not something of, “Hey, we’ll let you know in 12 months or something.” Obviously, you don’t want to do that to a fighter, either, so it could depend. Depending on how quick the fighter’s doctor gets us all the information that our doctor needs, it could be something that takes a week, or it could be something where our doctor needs more information [and] might need to send the fighter out for additional testing, and it could take a couple months. So a lot just depends on what the diagnosis is, what the treatment plan is, what state the records are in. The key there on timing is the fighter’s doctor getting us everything we need.

Sherdog.com: We know about Nevada’s allowed limit of a 6:1 testosterone-to-epitestosterone level. Why don’t we know what the NAC considers allowable ranges for total testosterone?
Kizer: It’s pretty much between 300 and 1200 [nanograms per deciliter]. But even then, if your testosterone, let’s say, is 500, which is normal, but it’s there because you’re using synthetic testosterone and you don’t have a TUE, you’re breaking the rules. There’s no safe harbor. You could be 1:1, but if somehow there’s evidence of use of synthetic testosterone and you don’t have a TUE, you could be penalized for that. A better example: you have a prescription. You have a prescription for hydrocodone, but you’re using it during the fight and you test positive for hydrocodone -- and that’s happened -- you’re going to be facing a disciplinary complaint.

Sherdog.com: What strikes me is the possibility that a fighter could be using more testosterone in camp than is allowed, putting himself beyond the 1200-ng/dl limit, and if it clears the system before you take a urine test, you’d still show below 6:1 T/E on your urine test. The athlete knows he won’t get blood tested, and it’s easier to cycle use in a way that controls the T/E ratio in urine than it is to control the measurements a blood test gives you.
Kizer: I’m not sure if that statement’s correct, but let’s assume it is -- I don’t know. We’ve caught a lot of guys with T/E ratios out of whack, so I’m not sure that it’s as easy as you say. You hear a lot of people saying how easy it is to pass a steroid test or any anabolic test, and I’m sure I could point to several dozen [fighters] who would disagree. And I’m sure other commissions could do the same. No test is foolproof, I agree with you there, but I don’t think we should overstate nor understate the effectiveness of testing.

Sherdog.com: It seems if you want to use testosterone there’s more incentive not to seek the commission’s permission and simply use it without telling anybody. If you tell the commission, you subject yourself to blood tests, which introduce a whole new way of getting caught using.
Kizer: Well, I guess you could say that about any [performance-enhancing drug]. If you’re going to take steroids, it’s better not to tell me you’re taking it than to tell me you’re taking it. If you’re going to commit murder, it’s probably best not to tell the police you’re going to commit murder. So yeah, that’s a self-evident truth, I think.

Sherdog.com: If a fighter wanted to use testosterone, I don’t see why he would tell the commission and seek a TUE.
Kizer: If they’re going to use it improperly or unlawfully or whatever term you want to say, you’re right. But again, that’s the same thing with steroids or anything else. Any other prohibited substance, yeah, why would you tell the commission you’re taking a prohibited substance? Unless you have a legitimate need and can prove it.

Sherdog.com: Are there still only three fighters for whom Nevada has approved an exemption to use testosterone?
Kizer: Yeah, only three fighters. They’re all MMA fighters, but, yeah, only three fighters have been granted for TRT. I think one thing that will come of all this media spotlight on it, I think you’ll have a lot more requests. Some will be illegitimate, someone saying, “Oh, OK, maybe I can trick the commission into giving me a TUE for TRT, get a doctor who can try to manipulate my labs or something.” But I think also there will be a lot more legitimate requests. I think there’s probably people out there not realizing that, “Hey, I’m 27 years old or I’m 32 years old or whatever my age is, why do I care about having my T checked?” And they’ll go and they’ll get their T checked and they’ll be abnormally low, be it from something genetic or it could be from something related to fighting. Weight cutting or getting hit in the head supposedly has some aspects of maybe lowering your T. So I think [for] a lot of fighters this may actually [be] a positive thing, as a lot of fighters who may not realize they’re suffering from this will get checked out and find that out. So good for them, but, of course, it makes it more difficult for us. But that’s alright; we’re up to the challenge to deal with both the legitimate and the illegitimate increases in requests.

Sherdog.com: Your predecessor, Marc Ratner, acts as the UFC’s de facto commission when they go international or to a place with no commission. When it comes to fighters, the UFC itself drug tests or screens medically, how would you know what they find and don’t find?

Kizer: Really, unless they tell us or you tell us via the press, I wouldn’t know. The fighter is obligated under penalty of perjury to inform us when he applies here whether he’s been subject to any sort of discipline elsewhere. So if there has been any discipline put on the fighter ... and we’ve had fighters who have not been quite so honest [and] they’ve had to deal with the consequences. Nowadays, though, especially with jurisdictions that are recognized, that would be in the fighter’s official record. In boxing, it’s a place called Fight Fax. With MMA, it’s mixedmartialarts.com. Both those entities do great work in that regard. And it’s easy to see a fighter’s history in that regard. But you’re right, on non-government-regulated events, be it UFC or anybody for that matter, if it a fighter tests positive, there’s no sort of official discipline. That’s more difficult to find out.

Sherdog.com: What if, say, the UFC approved a fighter to use testosterone on an international show? Would you have any way of knowing?
Kizer: When you do apply for a TUE [in Nevada], you do need to let us know whether you’ve ever applied for one -- whether you’re granted or not -- whether you’ve applied for one elsewhere. So that would be something that would come up there.

Sherdog.com: Do you ever see a time when a commission like yours puts athletes in Olympic-style 24/7 monitoring programs, where they could be tested at any time and have to report their whereabouts to the commission?
Kizer: Maybe. It would be much tougher for a state agency to deal with that than an international agency, but that could be. In a way, that’s kind of what we’re doing to the extent we can. A situation where I can call up a fighter and say, “Look, you need to go get tested right now, or you need to get tested within a certain amount of timeframe,” or in the case of what happened [with Overeem at the press conference], “You’re being tested right now, right here.” So there are aspects of that, but we’re never going to have jurisdiction beyond our borders. That’s true of any state commission or city commission; also true of certain national bodies, as well, of course. So that makes it more difficult, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t do things. So, you know, adding the steroid testing back roughly 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago, increasing the amount of guys getting tested fight night and then having this out-of-competition testing, as well; every time you add. You could look at it as, well, OK, great, you’re doing this, but you’re still not doing that. OK, now you’re doing that, but you’re not doing this. You could always look at what else could be done. I don’t know any, any, any agency, anti-doping agency, be it a state commission, be it a national commission, [the World Anti-Doping Agency], [the United States Anti-Doping Agency], the Canadian [Anti-Doping Agency], whoever, that tests every athlete every day, blood and urine. But you can easily say why not? Don’t you care? Why wouldn’t you test this guy more than less? So, yeah, you can always say that. Well, you tested him on Thursday and Friday, but you didn’t test them on Saturday. You don’t care if he did something on Saturday? Well, no, that’s not a fair criticism. So you got to do what you can with what you have, and that’s kind of the issue. And hopefully we’ve done that, but, nonetheless, it doesn’t mean that, hey, this is exactly how the program’s going to look two years from now or even two months from now. Hopefully, it gets better every year and we get more resources, and [with] the resources we have, we find better ways to spend them, more effective ways and that comes into play. There’s always going to be crime. There’s never going to be a time where you’re not going to have any murders or any robberies, but that doesn’t mean you don’t have a police force.

Sherdog.com: Since you disputed Chael Sonnen’s testifying to the California commission that he’d consulted with you on a TRT exemption, he has yet to fight in Nevada. In fact, I believe he was denied a corner license by Nevada to participate as a coach on “The Ultimate Fighter.” Kizer: Not quite the case. No, he never pursued the application. It actually kind of became moot when the California commission reinstated the remainder of his suspension, and that was basically during the part of the show. So there was no denial of it, because he kind of was forced to withdraw due to the California commission’s additional suspension.

Sherdog.com: What’s your sense around Sonnen’s ability to get licensed in Nevada again? Kizer: I’ve seen Chael. I’ve talked to Chael at fights. Chael is now being quite clear with people that he and I never talked. He’s making that quite clear, and that any comments made before that we had talked were untrue. Dana White even came to me and said, “Keith, I know he lied about you. He lied about me. He lied about Marc Ratner. He lied about [UFC doctor] Jeff Davidson; but that’s who he is.” I said, “Well, that’s not good enough for me, you know, Dana. So, well, Dana, I appreciate that, but that’s not good enough for me.” Those guys want to deal with it, it’s fine, but I’m in my position; we have to deal with these fighters and we have to trust what they tell us, especially on health and safety stuff. So, you know, the good news is, yeah, he’s done his time, he’s made quite clear that any misinterpretation of his words that he and I had spoken is incorrect. And I appreciate that. I appreciate that he was very conciliatory and honorable to me when we talked after all those hearings happened and things like that. And I give the guy props for stepping up and doing that, so good for him. So, yeah, I don’t think there would be any issues with respect to him getting licensed here, be it as a corner man or a fighter. The question becomes one of competition, with him or anybody, if they plan to use TRT, they have to go through and get the exemption granted. And I can’t speak to any fighter, be it [Sonnen] or anyone else who’s not been granted the exemption -- who’s never applied for one, in fact -- to know what the outcome would be. The standards would be the same as they were for the fighters we’ve OK’d.

El Guapo!

Overeem makes a statement:




To my friends and fans,

I am deeply saddened to announce that on Friday, April 20, I respectfully withdrew from the May 26 event so that I can request a continuance until my situation with the Nevada State Athletic Commission is resolved.

I cannot express how sorry I am to the Commission, Junior Dos Santos, the fans, the owners and employees of the UFC, my friends and family and anyone else who this has affected.

I absolutely do not believe in, nor do I use performance-enhancing drugs. I am a clean fighter and I will do whatever it takes to prove this to everyone.

Prior to the UFC 146 press conference in March, I aggravated an old rib injury on my left side. My doctor prescribed, and I accepted, an anti-inflammatory medication that was mixed with testosterone. I was completely unaware that testosterone was one of the ingredients in the medication. Although I was unaware, I do realize it is my job to know what I am putting into my body.

I respect the Nevada Commissioners and Executive Director Keith Kizer and what they are doing to keep
the sport of mixed martial arts regulated and safe for athletes. I look forward to working with them in the days and weeks ahead.
Friends and fans, I ask for your patience as I work through this matter. Please support me. I promise to return to the Octagon soon.

MrStuffins

jayteecork wrote: »

What competition? Bellator? I doubt overeem would fight multiple fights for a mere hundred grand.

Zuffa.have basically monopolized MMA. The sooner Congress step in on anti competition grounds the better cause things will only get worse

I have no idea why anybody would want anything other than a UFC monopoly on the top tier of MMA!

Why wouldn't anyone want all of the top guys in one organisation fighting each other? So MMA can turn into boxing and have champions everywhere?

MMA right now is how all combat sports should be, 1 legitimate World Champ in each division and that's the UFC champ. If you made a Top 10 in each relevent division, at LEAST 90% of the fighters would be under the Zuffa banner!

The closer you get to the smaller weight divisions, the more names you'd see cropping up in 6th place, 8th place etc. But that's it.

I think if you went from 265 all the way down to 170, the only names i'd even give a chance to as being in the Top 10 in their relevent divisions would be perhaps Hector Lombard and............... well?

Breaking the Zuffa monopoly will do nothing but dilute it's credability and ruin the sport!

pauldoo

MrStuffins wrote: »

I have no idea why anybody would want anything other than a UFC monopoly on the top tier of MMA!

Why wouldn't anyone want all of the top guys in one organisation fighting each other? So MMA can turn into boxing and have champions everywhere?

MMA right now is how all combat sports should be, 1 legitimate World Champ in each division and that's the UFC champ. If you made a Top 10 in each relevent division, at LEAST 90% of the fighters would be under the Zuffa banner!

The closer you get to the smaller weight divisions, the more names you'd see cropping up in 6th place, 8th place etc. But that's it.

I think if you went from 265 all the way down to 170, the only names i'd even give a chance to as being in the Top 10 in their relevent divisions would be perhaps Hector Lombard and............... well?

Breaking the Zuffa monopoly will do nothing but dilute it's credability and ruin the sport!

Fully agree on this. Lets just say Zuffa didnt purchase all these companies, over the last few years we could have had UFC, Strikeforce, Pride, WEC & Bellator all operating at the same time. For arguments sake we could have ended up with Brock, Fedor, Overeem, Werdum and Cain all heavyweight champions, with no chance of them fighting each other. It would be terrible, sport would be destroyed before it got started. The only upside is from a fighters point of view, maybe, none of the organisations would be profitable for a period of time so i dont know if the money would end up being better in the long run.

I know there are if and buts about organisations/champions but the point remains

jayteecork

That statement from Overeem sounded very like Thiago Silva's excuse when he was caught.

Niall0

I was kinda hoping for a better excuse than that.

Kev M

So a doctor was slipping about a gram of test into the weekly medicine of a pro athlete and didn't think to mention it....
All I can say is, that's completely believable and no further evidence will even be necessary. Shame on all of you who doubted the integrity of the reem, hating on him because of his superior genetics and work ethic.

alanrebelsw

Haha unbelievable..

Mellor

jayteecork wrote: »

That statement from Overeem sounded very like Thiago Silva's excuse when he was caught.

Thiago was at least honest and said he took steroids for the injury, not that he was unaware of it being there.

It's not uncommon for steroids to be prescribed for a short period of time. Only today I was speakign to a woman in work whose husband in hospital gettign treatment which include a dose of steroids.
But anytime i've heard of it people are aware that they are taking them. For elite level mma fighters theres no way they aren't also told.

UL_heart_throb

not trying to be an asshole mellor and i'm sure you are more than aware of the differences, but are you sure she was referring to anabolic steroids rather than corticosteroids

Mellor

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

not trying to be an asshole mellor and i'm sure you are more than aware of the differences, but are you sure she was referring to anabolic steroids rather than corticosteroids

Well I can't be 100% sure, as I didn't go into the details of it. But from what I do know the guy has some tissue wasting problem (he's an older guy), so I think in this case it is actually anabolic type. But I understand your point completely, that corticosteroids are far more common and aren't anabolic.

MrStuffins

I think it'd be hilarious if Overeem was in fact found to not have doped and they have to stick him in against Shane Del Rosario because of all the card shuffling :P

cowzerp

He was clearly pulled as they realise no loop hole is going to be found here and they don't want to look bad for looking for 1. This way they can pretend that they care!

Be like Nutella

Overeem is a cheat.... was kinda hopin the UFC could sue the **** out of em and make him paaaay!! coz I was lookin forward to this one... wanted JDS to knock the crap out of em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G4HxrVx20A

jayteecork

Can someone please even tell me wtf Overeem has even done in MMA?

He's beaten NO-ONE of note.

He got the crap kicked out of him in Pride by anyone half decent, he got out struck by Werdum in that fight and he beat up Brock Lesnar who had no business in MMA (title shot after beating Heath Herring against a guy who walks around ~100 pounds lighter than him?) and who had 12 inches of colon removed.

He's crap and it's obvious he was on something seeing how he looked in Pride.
Plus he likes to assault women.

Bye bye cheat.

MrStuffins

jayteecork wrote: »

Can someone please even tell me wtf Overeem has even done in MMA?

He's beaten NO-ONE of note.

He got the crap kicked out of him in Pride by anyone half decent, he got out struck by Werdum in that fight and he beat up Brock Lesnar who had no business in MMA (title shot after beating Heath Herring against a guy who walks around ~100 pounds lighter than him?) and who had 12 inches of colon removed.

He's crap and it's obvious he was on something seeing how he looked in Pride.
Plus he likes to assault women.

Bye bye cheat.

I was kinda with you until you called him "crap"

I've been saying for years that he's over rated. People were calling him the uncrowned No.1 HW in the world for a while, which is and was bullsh*t because he'd never even fought a Top 10 HW.

However, he is not "crap". He is a top guy and in the UFC had a chance to prove himself.

Pity he decided to cheat though!

Kev M

MrStuffins wrote: »

Pity he decided to cheat though!

Getting caught historically hasn't stopped plenty of other 'cheaters' from coming back and doing very well.

The test for Overeem will ultimately be whether or not he can come back and pass drug tests because of the scrutiny he'll be under.

I hope he comes back next year 300lbs shredded and passes the tests with flying colours

MrStuffins

Kev M wrote: »

Getting caught historically hasn't stopped plenty of other 'cheaters' from coming back and doing very well.

The test for Overeem will ultimately be whether or not he can come back and pass drug tests because of the scrutiny he'll be under.

I hope he comes back next year 300lbs shredded and passes the tests with flying colours

Well if he does he won't be competing in the UFC, with 265lbs being the HW limit and all.

But yeah, am I right in thinking that those who failed drugs tests in the past are required to be tested at every event? Or at least where the commissions "randomly" test, those randomly tested are indeed random but they make sure to test former failers?

Kev M

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well if he does he won't be competing in the UFC, with 265lbs being the HW limit and all.

That was a joke.. implying he could put his time off to good use

I think it will be much more difficult for overeem than it was for sonnen, carwin and even sherk to get back into mma after his suspension (if the ufc have him back that is), basically because he's just so jacked. He won't come back smaller. When the average fan looks at him, the steroid thing is just something that won't go away. Maybe if he looked more like Carwin it wouldn't be a problem :rolleyes:

roro1neil0

http://www.mmamania.com/2012/4/26/2977755/video-alistair-overeem-testosterone-doctor-molina-texas-ufc-tra-telligman

watch this video. it's from AO's video documentary website 'the reem'.

shows allistar getting some shot from the doctor. he obviously doesn't know it's got testosterone in it.

now, maybe he was juicing behind the scenes, but this video supports his claim that all he did wrong was get a 'painkiller' that turned out to have T in it.

Mellor

MrStuffins wrote: »

now, maybe he was juicing behind the scenes, but this video supports his claim that all he did wrong was get a 'painkiller' that turned out to have T in it.

Still doesn't explain why he travelling from vegas to texas to get some anti-inflamatories.

p to the e

Kev M wrote: »

I think it will be much more difficult for overeem than it was for sonnen, carwin and even sherk to get back into mma after his suspension (if the ufc have him back that is), basically because he's just so jacked. He won't come back smaller. When the average fan looks at him, the steroid thing is just something that won't go away. Maybe if he looked more like Carwin it wouldn't be a problem :rolleyes:

Carwin has never tested positive for steroids.

MrStuffins

Mellor wrote: »

Still doesn't explain why he travelling from vegas to texas to get some anti-inflamatories.

How did the quote in your reply quote get attributed to me?

Probably the best UFC Trailer he's done. Awesome angle and soundtrack.
JDS-Mir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyY81RioHmw

Mellor

p to the e wrote: »

Carwin has never tested positive for steroids.

Where he'd he say Carwin did.
He said if he looked like carwin the issue would go away after the ban. Like it did for Chael for example. But because Overeem is competely jacked a casual fan will still assume he is juiced up.

cowzerp

Lad's as the charter say's-Let's not discuss any fighters who have not proven positive for substance abuse

I wonder will Overeem ever fight in the UFC again-and if so how stringent will he be watched, his size is almost definitely going to go down if he stop's using the substances.

El Guapo!

The problem for Overeem is that because he cheated, he'll be forever known for that. Even if he stops using steroids and is as clean as a whistle and was to clean out the division, people will always have that in the back of their minds. In a lot of people's minds he'll never be a legitimate champion. He has tainted his career and it's more than likely what he'll be remembered for.

MrStuffins

I dunno about that. There's plenty of instances of fighters failing tests and then going on to be just as they were before. Sherk, Barnett, Sylvia, Diaz etc.

I think this is because UFC (for example) never ever talk about a guy failing a test after they have served their bans. This coupled with the fact that MMA is simply not reported in the mainstream sports media means that UFC can mould and shape their universe the way they want. if they don't mention it, it's not that it didn't happen but it's no longer an issue (or at least one UFC want to highlight).

Eventually this will all change when MMA is a real mainstream sport. Look at Dwayne Chambers right now, he's still being crucified for failing drugs tests.

Spideog Rua

Dean09 wrote: »

The problem for Overeem is that because he cheated, he'll be forever known for that. Even if he stops using steroids and is as clean as a whistle and was to clean out the division, people will always have that in the back of their minds. In a lot of people's minds he'll never be a legitimate champion. He has tainted his career and it's more than likely what he'll be remembered for.

I understand where you are coming from, but he didnt actually test positive for any PEDs.

Kev M

MrStuffins wrote: »

I dunno about that. There's plenty of instances of fighters failing tests and then going on to be just as they were before. Sherk, Barnett, Sylvia, Diaz etc.

I think this is because UFC (for example) never ever talk about a guy failing a test after they have served their bans. This coupled with the fact that MMA is simply not reported in the mainstream sports media means that UFC can mould and shape their universe the way they want. if they don't mention it, it's not that it didn't happen but it's no longer an issue (or at least one UFC want to highlight).

Exactly. But I see it being much more difficult for Overeem. The way he looks means that the steroid question is never off the table and its the first thing so many even new fans comment on. Sure his name was overoid before he ever failed anything. This isn't a problem for returning guys who are 'less jacked'.

El Guapo!

MrStuffins wrote: »

I dunno about that. There's plenty of instances of fighters failing tests and then going on to be just as they were before. Sherk, Barnett, Sylvia, Diaz etc.

I think this is because UFC (for example) never ever talk about a guy failing a test after they have served their bans. This coupled with the fact that MMA is simply not reported in the mainstream sports media means that UFC can mould and shape their universe the way they want. if they don't mention it, it's not that it didn't happen but it's no longer an issue (or at least one UFC want to highlight).

Eventually this will all change when MMA is a real mainstream sport. Look at Dwayne Chambers right now, he's still being crucified for failing drugs tests.

I know where you're comin from but with Overeem he had so much hype around him and was set to take over the UFC heavyweight division and he disappointed a lot of fans after just one fight in the UFC. His next fight was the title fight as you know and was being billed as one of the fights of the year. Everyone was looking forward to this fight.
I think realistically if he wants to keep any credibility he needs to wait about a year before fighting again, and even then he shouldn't be dumped back into a no1 contender fight. He needs to win fans back and prove over and over again that he's clean.

p to the e

Dean09 wrote: »

I know where you're comin from but with Overeem he had so much hype around him and was set to take over the UFC heavyweight division and he disappointed a lot of fans after just one fight in the UFC. His next fight was the title fight as you know and was being billed as one of the fights of the year. Everyone was looking forward to this fight.
I think realistically if he wants to keep any credibility he needs to wait about a year before fighting again, and even then he shouldn't be dumped back into a no1 contender fight. He needs to win fans back and prove over and over again that he's clean.

He's going to have to do something exceptional to try and prove he's a clean fighter. There were always rumours and in-jokes about Overroids steroid use and it is almost as if everyone was just waiting for him to be caught. I would honestly like to see him get some great fights but as you say he's going to have to prove he deserves them.