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Do private schools have a place in society?

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    #92
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    Rocket19 wrote: »
    I went to Gerards, maybe I'm one of the nice ones...haha.

    To argue against the point of making the private schools free from any state funding, I guess there is that argument that people of a high income threshold (these are the the ones sending their kids to private schools!!) are paying proportionately high amounts of income tax to government. Why shouldn't they recieve the benefit of having their kids' school funded by the state?

    A lot of them are using every type of tax dodge and are paying little or no tax. At the same time they are piggybacking on publicly provided facilities.
    Even if every private school was banned in the morning the moneyed classes would find ways to ensure a better standard of education for their offspring. Some would send them abroad. others would avail of various extra curricular tuition etc. There will always be disadvantage.


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    #93
    Rocket19
    Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭Rocket19


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    A lot of them are using every type of tax dodge and are paying little or no tax. At the same time they are piggybacking on publicly provided facilities.
    Even if every private school was banned in the morning the moneyed classes would find ways to ensure a better standard of education for their offspring. Some would send them abroad. others would avail of various extra curricular tuition etc. There will always be disadvantage.

    Oh come on! I know this legitimately happens but it doesn't apply to everyone who is a high earner. I'd go as far to say that's it's a minority. Maybe the super rich? Not everyone who has money is a corrupt politician or banker who avoids taxes. Most of the taxes brought in are from high income earners.


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    #94
    wicklowwonder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭wicklowwonder


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    wicklowwonder wrote: »
    True and some will fail in life but a higher percentage will go on to earn above the average industrial wage while a public school with the same class alot will end up on dole.

    A lot of private schoolers will end up on daddys money which is free money just like the dole.

    Realistically how many? Alot less than will end up in dole.

    The point I am trying to make is you do everything you can surely to provide what's best for your children. Private schools have sent the most kids to college year in year out so that's what is best.


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    #95
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    wicklowwonder wrote: »
    Realistically how many? Alot less than will end up in dole.

    The point I am trying to make is you do everything you can surely to provide what's best for your children. Private schools have sent the most kids to college year in year out so that's what is best.

    I dont know give me a figure for both. They have sent the most kids to college year in year out I agree but not that it makes private schools best. I have a good degree and didnt go to private school. What is best about the fact that they went to private shcool if I have the same degree as them or better?


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    #96
    wicklowwonder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭wicklowwonder


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    wicklowwonder wrote: »
    Realistically how many? Alot less than will end up in dole.

    The point I am trying to make is you do everything you can surely to provide what's best for your children. Private schools have sent the most kids to college year in year out so that's what is best.

    I dont know give me a figure for both. They have sent the most kids to college year in year out I agree but not that it makes private schools best. I have a good degree and didnt go to private school. What is best about the fact that they went to private shcool if I have the same degree as them or better?

    It's the odds. I am not saying you will not get a degree after public school I am saying you have a better chance of getting a degree after private that is all, yes same degree but a better chance of getting there if you go private. That is my argument.....


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    #97
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,276 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A lot of private schoolers will end up on daddys money which is free money just like the dole.
    Utter nonsense a lot of daddies suffered big losses with the economy collapse. Many are just about surviving.


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wicklowwonder wrote: »
    ............ Private schools have sent the most kids to college year in year out so that's what is best.

    Did you go to a private school yourself?


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    #99
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wicklowwonder wrote: »
    It's the odds. I am not saying you will not get a degree after public school I am saying you have a better chance of getting a degree after private that is all, yes same degree but a better chance of getting there if you go private. That is my argument.....

    It's the background of the students and not the actual private school provide the better odds :)

    Primary school teachers could tell you who from their class will go on to college and 9 times out of ten they'll be correct.


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    #100
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    RoverJames wrote: »
    It's the background of the students and not the actual private school provide the better odds :)

    Primary school teachers could tell you who from their class will go on to college and 9 times out of ten they'll be correct.

    + 10


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    #101
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Well, the question is "do private schools have a place in society?", and the answer is: no, of course they don't. That's the point of a private school - so that privileged kids and their parents can avoid "society" altogether.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #102
    uberalles
    Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭uberalles


    A fellow I know says a relation went to gerrards and all he got was an ockscent.


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    #103
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bnt wrote: »
    Well, the question is "do private schools have a place in society?", and the answer is: no, of course they don't. That's the point of a private school - so that privileged kids and their parents can avoid "society" altogether.

    Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.


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    #104
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    You can't ever voice any objections to private schools without being accused of bitterness and jealousy bla bla. Childish much? Members of my immediate family went to private school because it was a good school (due to its reputation though, not because fees = good), I went to a state school because it was a good school.

    That's all it should boil down to IMO - fee-paying isn't always automatically good, state isn't always automatically bad.


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    #105
    Rocket19
    Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭Rocket19


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.

    Wow, that's ridiculously ignorant. Going to a private school doesn't get you good grades (pretty much the most important thing you need, lets face it). Only hard work can do that! I know you don't agree with him btw!


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    #106
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,276 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    bnt wrote: »
    Well, the question is "do private schools have a place in society?", and the answer is: no, of course they don't. That's the point of a private school - so that privileged kids and their parents can avoid "society" altogether.

    Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.


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    #107
    blindside88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭blindside88


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    IM0 wrote: »
    because they pay for it. the point. you missed it.

    I take it if I earn more money than you I should also recieve better medication and or treatment in hospital?


    Public vs private hospitals? €75 per night compared to €2500 a night. While I went to a public school and had a great time and great education I feel that you really do get what you pay for in this country and if I can afford it my kids will go to a private school


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    #108
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Rocket19 wrote: »
    Wow, that's ridiculously ignorant. Going to a private school doesn't get you good grades (pretty much the most important thing you need, lets face it). Only hard work can do that! I know you don't agree with him btw!

    I did tell him that. He himself comes from a rough background to say the least and while he does help people from similar backgrounds I disagree with his discrimination of those from luckier backgrounds.


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    #109
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    ted1 wrote: »
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

    Well to be honest the mans a genius. Many have benifitted from his research into diseases.


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    #110
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    There is a lot of misinformation floating around on here on both sides. Private schools do not automatically get you better grades but they can help, particularly through more encouragement to do better, most kids who go to private schools come from hard working middle class families and often their parents do have to go without sometimes so as to pay for their child's education but that was their decision to make, and most private school students are just as nice and grounded as the rest of us. Why shouldn't parents have the choice if they want their child educated in a certain place in a certain way?

    For clarity, I went to a public school but others in my family attended private boarding school so I have seen both sides of the system.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No im not Im implying that a sense of entitlment can be correlated with those from a fortunate background who are privy to better things in life because of their good fortune.

    steddyeddy, you clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder about those of "fortunate backgrounds". Perhaps if you looked passed that you might see things a little more rationally.
    I know people on both sides of the economic scale and tbh I find that often it's people from a lower earning family who have a bigger sense of entitlement than those whose parents earn good money. Those who have earned their money tend to instill a respect of money into their children and so most "rich kids" have been taught to appreciate their money and to never expect anything from nothing. The same couldn't be said for some of those that I went to school with who have grown up expecting everything to be handed to them as far as the girl who was going to have a "babby" when she finished school so that the government would give her a free house, and that's only one example of many.


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    #111
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    There is a lot of misinformation floating around on here on both sides. Private schools do not automatically get you better grades but they can help, particularly through more encouragement to do better, most kids who go to private schools come from hard working middle class families and often their parents do have to go without sometimes so as to pay for their child's education but that was their decision to make, and most private school students are just as nice and grounded as the rest of us. Why shouldn't parents have the choice if they want their child educated in a certain place in a certain way?

    For clarity, I went to a public school but others in my family attended private boarding school so I have seen both sides of the system.



    steddyeddy, you clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder about those of "fortunate backgrounds". Perhaps if you looked passed that you might see things a little more rationally.
    I know people on both sides of the economic scale and tbh I find that often it's people from a lower earning family who have a bigger sense of entitlement than those whose parents earn good money. Those who have earned their money tend to instill a respect of money into their children and so most "rich kids" have been taught to appreciate their money and to never expect anything from nothing. The same couldn't be said for some of those that I went to school with who have grown up expecting everything to be handed to them as far as the girl who was going to have a "babby" when she finished school so that the government would give her a free house, and that's only one example of many.

    I dont read past insults thanks.


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    #112
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I dont read past insults thanks.

    Really?! You consider that to be an insult?!


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    #113
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    Really?! You consider that to be an insult?!

    Huge chip on my shoulder was meant to be a compliment?


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    #114
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    it explains why they are such a monumental dickhead.
    And what about the dickheads who didn't goto private school, and have a massive chip on their shoulder about it? :pac:


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    #115
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    They are not private schools.

    They are fee-paying schools that are subsidised by the state.

    If they were real private schools then only the really rich would be able to afford them.


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    #116
    bwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭bwatson


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Sorry to disagree but I think it does.

    I went to an independent school and I must say I find your opinion a little offensive. The reason that students of independent schools tend to do better in my opinion is because of the values that are instilled into them by teachers and parents from a young age. Certain levels of respect, responsibility and diligence are not only expected but demanded - very different to many state schools.

    Students are far more likely to achieve success because they understand the importance of being disciplined and hard working. Good Examination results are achieved through their own industry and commitment!


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    #117
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.

    Lecturer? Hiring other lecturers like? This seems bizarre to be honest. I'd never even consider putting what school I went to on a CV unless it was the highest level of education I achieved. Presumably if they're going for jobs as lecturers they have PhD's and Masters Degrees and a Bachelor's Degree and they still put down their school :confused::confused:
    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    They are not private schools.

    They are fee-paying schools that are subsidised by the state.

    If they were real private schools then only the really rich would be able to afford them.

    Have a look at the United States to see what real private schools look like. To be fair, in parts of the US you'd be mental to even consider sending your child to a public school if you can afford not to.


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    #118
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    bwatson wrote: »
    I went to an independent school and I must say I find your opinion a little offensive. The reason that students of independent schools tend to do better in my opinion is because of the values are instilled into them by teachers and parents from a young age. Certain levels of respect, responsibility and diligence are not only expected but demanded - very different to many state schools.

    Students are far more likely to achieve success because they understand the importance of being disciplined and hard working. Good Examination results are achieved through their own industry and commitment!

    To be honest bwatson, the UK system of schools is quite different to that of Ireland. The Irish 'private' schools aren't independant, most people's issue with them would stop if they were. Teacher's in Irish private schools are still paid by the state. As far as I can make out independent schools in the UK are fully self-funding from what I can make out. Comparing them isn't neccessarily a fair comparison.

    Secondly I definately agree with some of your point. The closing down of grammar schools in the UK was one of the worst things they ever did. The importance of working hard and respecting yourself and ptther pupil's and teacher's is definately lacking from most comprehensive's in England, a lot of which are pretty awful. Comapred to Northern Ireland where they still have grammar schools and the level of academic achievement is much higher etc.

    However I don't think a school per sae is the answer. It's nearly always the family. In my 1st public (state school in UK speak) secondary school in a middle class area you coudl have predicted who was going to university, who was going to the local IT and who wasn't going to 3rd level in 1st Year. The people from upper and middle class areas went to university pretty much en masse (with some notable exceptions), those from the 'lower' middle classes and 'upper' working classes went to the IT and those from the 'working' class estates went straight out to work. We had no one with a dream of living on the dole thankfully.

    Independent schools thrive because of the the norms of the social class who go there for the most part. They suceed in spite of rather than because of.


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    #119
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    admiralofthefleet wrote: »
    like myself, im planning to send my son to an educate together. but the likes of blackrock college recieving money when ordinary people cant send their children there annoys me. gonzaga dont even allow students from the northside of dublin to enrol

    Why should they? The policy is that pupils from the northside go to Belvedere and those from the southside to Gonzaga.


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    #120
    cruais
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭cruais


    Gyalist wrote: »
    Why should they? The policy is that pupils from the northside go to Belvedere and those from the southside to Gonzaga.

    Who made that policy?

    And for the record, I said already I went to private school. I'm not against it, just wondering about the policy?


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    #121
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    cruais wrote: »
    Who made that policy?

    I don't know, but that what it says on the the Gonzaga application for admission form.


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