Do private schools have a place in society?

Chucky the tree

Its cheaper for the Department of Education to have child educated privately so in these current economic times I'd be surprised if they reduce funding to private schools.

steddyeddy

RoverJames wrote: »

I know plenty of thick cnuts who went to private school, most grind schools are full of the feckers at Easter and Christmas too. I don't see how a private school is advantageous, the majority of public schools are fine.

I agree I dont think people who go to private shcools are more intelligent. Its just that the system promotes elitisim.

ted1

steddyeddy wrote: »

Heres my problem with private schools. I think that idea is absolute rubbish. They dont produce the best students. They instill students with a belief that they can get to college yes but in no way do they produce the best students.

They produce more ambitious and career focused students who go on to better success in later life.

wicklowwonder

steddyeddy wrote: »

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Quiet frankly yes my kids should get better education and healthcare if I work hard to pay for it. My kids will go private and they will also receive the best health care money can buy as this gives them more a chance in life to get a decent job and the cycle begins again.

Same can be said for the kid who is brought into a family who are wasters their kids have a higher chance of also turning into wasters. I will do all in my power to ensure my kids are not dragged down the drain with them. It's society the same schools produce the best students year in year out and the majority of these schools are fed paying.

Heres my problem with private schools. I think that idea is absolute rubbish. They dont produce the best students. They instill students with a belief that they can get to college yes but in no way do they produce the best students.

But surely that's what you want a school to do? They also produce better leaving cert results. Some kids can handle public school and are driven by the desire get the best leaving cert possible but majority need that push that private schools offer. It is all about the mindset.

You would never see a private school student looking forward to leaving school to go on the dole while there is an element like that in public schools do if you have the money surely it's best to ensure your kids avoid this element and are educated in a mind frame that encourages further education and a better career at the end of the day?

wicklowwonder

ted1 wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

Heres my problem with private schools. I think that idea is absolute rubbish. They dont produce the best students. They instill students with a belief that they can get to college yes but in no way do they produce the best students.

They produce more ambitious and career focused students who go on to better success in later life.

Surely exactly what ever parent wants?

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

.....They dont produce the best students...........

Indeed, plenty of folks going to private school get woeful results in the Leaving Cert. Plenty do very well too. Generally folks who are well to do and in professional careers are very supportive of their offspring so that's help when at school, get lots of these kids together and it's a good class to be in.

In private schools there would be a high percentage of very ambitious kids who want to do well academically.

So too in many non fee paying schools but probably more so in the private ones.

A school with a population of kids from various backgrounds can provide a very decent experience to kids though, giving a well rounded view etc etc.

Many folks who go to private school, on to college and then into a professional career of some sort can lead an awfully sheltered life, I work with such a chap, he's in his 30s and sending his kids to private primary school so they can go be guaranteed a place in his chosen private secondary school where he went himself. He's a splendid chap but frighteningly naive, he thinks he's Worldly wise from what he learnt on the rugby pitch.

Logical Fallacy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry to disagree but I think it does.

No need to be sorry about disagreeing. What should do is closely examine what you are saying and you will see how flawed it is.

Glenbhoy

iguana wrote: »

Yeah I agree that is a problem. Imo, private schools should ideally be independent. It's quite like how hospital consultants used to be able to double job in a way that allowed them to be private some days a week while still taking a full-time public salary. And they would encourage patients to leap frog the public system by having an initial appointment as a private patient and then get seen faster publicly after that. I've no problem with people choosing private services instead of public, be that an education or medical treatment. But choose one of or the other instead of paying for extra while creaming off the system.

Totally agree with that, but, hospital consultants are still allowed to double job. They are encouraged to not spend more than 20% of their time on private patients. Whether or how this is actually checked is a matter for debate, especially given that dealing with patients with health insurance considerably muddies the waters here.

For me hospitals and schools should be private or public and staff working in them should be employed by the state if public and by their private employer if not, that's how it works (and why it works) in normal countries.

Rocket19

steddyeddy wrote: »

First of all I dont think all people who go to private shcool are rich or d1cks. I know a few of the st.gerards crowd as friends and their mostly grand.

Regarding healthcare I lived a good chunk of my life where having no insurance or not enough money for healthcare can be the leading cause of bankruptcy.

Regarding your friend some people will have that attitude to those who are lucky enough to be funded by their parents.

I went to Gerards, maybe I'm one of the nice ones...haha.

To argue against the point of making the private schools free from any state funding, I guess there is that argument that people of a high income threshold (these are the the ones sending their kids to private schools!!) are paying proportionately high amounts of income tax to government. Why shouldn't they recieve the benefit of having their kids' school funded by the state?

wicklowwonder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

.............

You would never see a private school student looking forward to leaving school to go on the dole while there is an element like that in public schools do if you have the money surely it's best to ensure your kids avoid this element and are educated in a mind frame that encourages further education and a better career at the end of the day?

Lots of private school students do very poorly academically, there are classes full of them studying for ordinary level maths, Irish and English at the moment.

quietsailor

ted1 wrote: »

Yes, if your willing to pay for it.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Heres my problem with private schools. I think that idea is absolute rubbish. They dont produce the best students. They instill students with a belief that they can get to college yes but in no way do they produce the best students.

They might not provide the best students but they provide THE BEST CHANCE of a good education. Its then up to the parents to make sure the children take advantage of that opportunity, when they do they are the best students.

The thing is the type of parents (leaving aside the idle rich and the snob parents) who send their children to private school are the type of parents who are already reading to their children at an early age, playing with them, forcing them to do housework etc etc. They are the ones who will do without to give their children a better start in life by giving them a better education and a decent set of values and morals.

So combining those two ideas ensures that there will be a higher percentage of students going on from private schools to college - not because they have a sense of entitlement, they will have a sense of it's easily possible as all the others around them can do it, but that its the natural thing to do.

The second point - that's its the natural thing to do - is actually an important factor,
I have a friend teaching in the exact opposite of a private school. He teaches in a very rough North Cork City school, teachers get threatened there regulary.
He's tried to encourage a few of the brighter/more hard working pupils to go to school & the results;
- one parent came in screaming "who the f**k do you think you are telling my Johnny he can go to college"
- other parents have given the child no support,
- other pupils mock those children and make their life misery for attempting to better themselves.

That sort of sh!t won't happen in a private school, not because it's elitest because the majority of children will be of middle class background who's parents support them.

For that reason if I ever have children I will send them to a private school. If you don't like that well tough luck. In fact I can't see why you would dislike that, it frees space for your children in the schools you think are the best = the public schools

steddyeddy

wicklowwonder wrote: »

But surely that's what you want a school to do? They also produce better leaving cert results. Some kids can handle public school and are driven by the desire get the best leaving cert possible but majority need that push that private schools offer. It is all about the mindset.

I have a good degree and career path but went to public school. I must be one of the elite majority so.

You would never see a private school student looking forward to leaving school to go on the dole while there is an element like that in public schools do if you have the money surely it's best to ensure your kids avoid this element and are educated in a mind frame that encourages further education and a better career at the end of the day?

A lot of people who go to public school look forward to living on daddys money. Dole or daddys money its pretty much the same thing.

I believe that a lot of people go onto good careers from public schools but this could be because of cronyisim and the shcool they went to rather than hard work.

steddyeddy

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

No need to be sorry about disagreeing. What should do is closely examine what you are saying and you will see how flawed it is.

You dont know anyone with a sense of entitlement because of their parents money or their class?

wicklowwonder

RoverJames wrote: »

wicklowwonder wrote: »

.............

You would never see a private school student looking forward to leaving school to go on the dole while there is an element like that in public schools do if you have the money surely it's best to ensure your kids avoid this element and are educated in a mind frame that encourages further education and a better career at the end of the day?

Lots of private school students do very poorly academically, there are classes full of them studying for ordinary level maths, Irish and English at the moment.

True and some will fail in life but a higher percentage will go on to earn above the average industrial wage while a public school with the same class alot will end up on dole.

Scruffles

a lot of people who go private cant pay-they have scholarships paying for them,sometimes it helps if they have had relatives attend the school before to.

why have an issue with private schooling just because self or others cannot get access?
the world exists on a hierarchy of riches and its unfortunate for those who really are poverty stricken without any fair access to making money,and not those who just think they are in poverty,especialy when its those that have got a house,dont live in war,are weighted down in elizabeth taylor gold,smart phones,all the modern games consoles,following fashion etc-ahhh get real.

why shoud progression and chance be held back just so it makes people who arent technicaly poverty stricken-feel better for those in real poverty? people in real poverty who have no access to help wont even get to hear about it.
in africa,they actualy have to pay for school terms-whether theyre rich or poor.
the real poor dont need private schools closing they need their governments screwing over so they can claim independence for themselves and overcome corruption,and people who have all the basics in life though little luxuries arent as well off as others need to accept its the life they have been given and unless they can get a scholarship or busary into a private school then they will have to look at other options,just because they havent got access doesnt mean their life will be fcuked up.

Logical Fallacy

steddyeddy wrote: »

You dont know anyone with a sense of entitlement because of their parents money or their class?

Of course I do.

But not everyone I know who had parents with money has a sense of entitlement.

Your argument is flawed because you are implying that everyone who comes from a fortunate background has a sense of entitlement.

You are wrong.

wicklowwonder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

But surely that's what you want a school to do? They also produce better leaving cert results. Some kids can handle public school and are driven by the desire get the best leaving cert possible but majority need that push that private schools offer. It is all about the mindset.

.......................

I went to a public school, the majority of us went onto 3rd level, as in 75 to 90%. The majority of us didn't need that push you speak of.

Most kids can handle public schools

wicklowwonder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

True and some will fail in life but a higher percentage will go on to earn above the average industrial wage while a public school with the same class alot will end up on dole.

That would be due to the background rather than the school imo
There are so many excellent public schools out there.

frozenfrozen

I don't like a lot of people who use boards.

wicklowwonder

steddyeddy wrote: »

wicklowwonder wrote: »

But surely that's what you want a school to do? They also produce better leaving cert results. Some kids can handle public school and are driven by the desire get the best leaving cert possible but majority need that push that private schools offer. It is all about the mindset.

I have a good degree and career path but went to public school. I must be one of the elite majority so.

You would never see a private school student looking forward to leaving school to go on the dole while there is an element like that in public schools do if you have the money surely it's best to ensure your kids avoid this element and are educated in a mind frame that encourages further education and a better career at the end of the day?

A lot of people who go to public school look forward to living on daddys money. Dole or daddys money its pretty much the same thing.

I believe that a lot of people go onto good careers from public schools but this could be because of cronyisim and the shcool they went to rather than hard work.

Well done fair play, but it is as quietsailor said in a previous post it is trying to ensure your kid has the best chance possible. Last thing you want is to be abused in school for having ambition? You want your kid surrounded by like minded individuals.

GarIT

I haven't had time to read the full thread but I saw someone mentioned funding. I agree with sending kids to private school but I think that they shouldn't receive any state funding.

I'm in 6th year and I was doing badly but I started going to a private school and its much better. Everyone is focused on the LC. There is no time wasted at all, we don't do p.e., religion, cspe, sphe, careers, or have free classes. Its much more efficient than public school.

flyswatter

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I absolutely think they do.

The second I hear someone went to a private school it explains why they are such a monumental dickhead.

Went to a private school for a year and pretty much everyone was bang on. Generalize much?

wicklowwonder

RoverJames wrote: »

wicklowwonder wrote: »

But surely that's what you want a school to do? They also produce better leaving cert results. Some kids can handle public school and are driven by the desire get the best leaving cert possible but majority need that push that private schools offer. It is all about the mindset.

.......................

I went to a public school, the majority of us went onto 3rd level, as in 75 to 90%. The majority of us didn't need that push you speak of.

Most kids can handle public schools

There is a lot of very good public schools, alot of my friends went to an Irish school that produced some great results but as I said it is about offering the best chance possible and the annual results of schools sending students to university are always topped by the same private schools with the odd public school as well but majority private.

wicklowwonder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Well done fair play, but it is as quietsailor said in a previous post it is trying to ensure your kid has the best chance possible. Last thing you want is to be abused in school for having ambition? You want your kid surrounded by like minded individuals.

You see I just think about the well rounded thing. Being abused in school for having ambition wouldn't happen in the majority of public schools. It seems to me from this thread that lots of folks think all public schools are very poor in comparison to private schools. All of them are not, in fact the majority wouldn't be.

If folks pass that attitude on to their kids who than go on to private schools that's how the perceived elitism etc develops

There is no doubt a greater chance of encountering lots of kids from challenging backgrounds in your average public school, so too there is more chance of encountering lots of kids from privileged backgrounds in your average private school, that's fairly obvious.

To answer the OPs question, yes of course private schools have a place in society.

St.Spodo

I don't believe education is something which should be bought - I do believe the the standard of education should on the whole be continually improved for everyone. The continued existence of private schools and underfunded public schools just perpetuates the unfair reality of the ruling class dominating the underclass. I'm an idealist. Sue me.

GarIT

Bambi wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that kids in public and private schools would have roughly the same income...i.e f**k all, so we can safely say that they can't pay for it.

I know that but their parents managed to earn the money to send their kinds to private school. The kinds deserve it for the work their parents did.

steddyeddy

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Of course I do.

But not everyone I know who had parents with money has a sense of entitlement.

Your argument is flawed because you are implying that everyone who comes from a fortunate background has a sense of entitlement.

You are wrong.

No im not Im implying that a sense of entitlment can be correlated with those from a fortunate background who are privy to better things in life because of their good fortune.

steddyeddy

wicklowwonder wrote: »

True and some will fail in life but a higher percentage will go on to earn above the average industrial wage while a public school with the same class alot will end up on dole.

A lot of private schoolers will end up on daddys money which is free money just like the dole.

ted1

GarIT wrote: »

I haven't had time to read the full thread but I saw someone mentioned funding. I agree with sending kids to private school but I think that they shouldn't receive any state funding.

I'm in 6th year and I was doing badly but I started going to a private school and its much better. Everyone is focused on the LC. There is no time wasted at all, we don't do p.e., religion, cspe, sphe, careers, or have free classes. Its much more efficient than public school.

your going to a grind school very different yo a private school. Those classes you say you don't do are important to develop an all round student.

Don't forget the parents of kids in private school pay more taxes than those in public school. At this stage I think we should abolish taxes and privatise the entire country. So EVERY PAYS for what they use.

steddyeddy

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Well done fair play, but it is as quietsailor said in a previous post it is trying to ensure your kid has the best chance possible. Last thing you want is to be abused in school for having ambition? You want your kid surrounded by like minded individuals.

That really really is a minority of public schools.