How to revive the Irish language.

LH Pathe

Rename it simplified Chinese, they will flood to it with ¥en in their eyes

/Yuan

Yamanoto

deise go deo wrote: »

You do realise that the Cumann Gaelach in UCD has grown masively over the last ten years, from just a few hundred members to about 2000 for the last two years.
Events they run like No Béarla where people sign up to speak Gaeilge Amháin for a Day have been growing every year to the point that they had 800 students taking part in No Béarla this year, and UCD did not even win best Cumann Gaelach this year.

As for Oireachtas, there were more students at it last year than ever before, all of them speaking Irish.

Claiming that they are failing to attract new people is nonsence, the trend across the country for the last few years in Third Level Irish societies has been robust expansion, the vast majority can continue to speak English, that does'nt mean Irish is not growing strongly amongst young people.

All the above is encouraging, but it'd be foolish to think it and the wider work undertaken by bodies such as Conradh na Gaeilge, Fondúireacht na Gaeilge and Gaelscoilleanna in their present form would have what's necessary to effect a revival of the language itself.

For that to happen, there has to be the will to achieve a bi-lingual society, from the people to the politicians - an expensive, intensive, long-term undertaking.

philstar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34a3ahZqEAg

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

You do realise that the Cumann Gaelach in UCD has grown masively over the last ten years, from just a few hundred members to about 2000 for the last two years.
Events they run like No Béarla where people sign up to speak Gaeilge Amháin for a Day have been growing every year to the point that they had 800 students taking part in No Béarla this year, and UCD did not even win best Cumann Gaelach this year.

Fair play. they market well. I wonder how many much the number of students studying irish in arts has increased over that same period...

800 students not speaking irish for a day? Come off it I would have noticed. Signing up is not the same as partaking. Haven't you learned anything from the census data?

As for Oireachtas, there were more students at it last year than ever before, all of them speaking Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

Claiming that they are failing to attract new people is nonsence, the trend across the country for the last few years in Third Level Irish societies has been robust expansion, the vast majority can continue to speak English, that does'nt mean Irish is not growing strongly amongst young people.

I didn't say that they aren't growing. I said they don't have the numbers to infulence society at large. They are a small band of speakers. A minority group. These societies will come and go, grow and shrink as they have done so since the foundation of the state but irish will never see a revival. There will be no irish renaissance because it is a minority interest.

up for anything

It's mystifying why with two sixth classes, only a tiny percentage of the children who attend Gaelscoil Osraí go on to attend the secondary school Coláiste Pobail Osraí in Kilkenny.

GaryIrv93

If the vast majority of students learning Irish can at best string a few basic and broken sentences together after what, fourteen years of being taught it then that's reason enough for it to be abolished as a compulsory subject. Learning a language for fourteen bloody years and not being fluent in it is just ridiculous and is a complete waste of time, money and resources. The government needs to cop on, and make these changes, as well as restructuring the whole method of teaching Irish. I've never seen nor heard of a bigger fail in an education system in my life. Forcing students to learn Irish will not work no matter how much you try to make it, and the whole reason for it just backfires - forcing students drives them away from Irish, not towards it as it's intended. I wish people could get that into their heads. It's almost as if the goverment wants young people to despise the language - if not, then they would have restructured it's teaching years ago.

I think people would appreciate Irish more if given the option to learn it freely instead of having it forced down their throats.

Stained Class

There is no debate on this really.

Let's just shoot this limping dog thru the eyes & have done with.

Spend the cash on a few spare beds in hospitals............ & well we could do an awfull lot more besides if we just got rid entirely.

The worst kind of eejits in this country use this as some kind of hobby horse for themselves.

Pay for it yourselves & for God's sake leave the rest of us alone!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could do with a new fishing rod & I WANT YOU TO PAY FOR IT 'COS ITS YOUR DUTY AS A PATRIOT TO PAY FOR MY HOBBY!

GETTIT!!!!!!!!!

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Fair play. they market well. I wonder how many much the number of students studying irish in arts has increased over that same period...

800 students not speaking irish for a day? Come off it I would have noticed. Signing up is not the same as partaking. Haven't you learned anything from the census data?

You don't have to pay to claim to speak Irish on the census, you do if you want to join the Cumann Gaelach and to take part in No Béarla or any other events they run, that tends to seperate out people who are not interested fairly fast.

I didn't say that they aren't growing. I said they don't have the numbers to infulence society at large. They are a small band of speakers. A minority group. These societies will come and go, grow and shrink as they have done so since the foundation of the state but irish will never see a revival. There will be no irish renaissance because it is a minority interest.

A small band of speakers indeed, but growing, and the number of young people fluent in Irish, who have had their entire education before going to Uni through Irish is growing and will continue to grow. Rome was not built in a day, but the foundations are already down.
The Minority is getting bigger.

deise go deo

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

If the vast majority of students learning Irish can at best string a few basic and broken sentences together after what, fourteen years of being taught it then that's reason enough for it to be abolished as a compulsory subject. Learning a language for fourteen bloody years and not being fluent in it is just ridiculous and is a complete waste of time, money and resources. The government needs to cop on, and make these changes, as well as restructuring the whole method of teaching Irish. I've never seen nor heard of a bigger fail in an education system in my life. Forcing students to learn Irish will not work no matter how much you try to make it, and the whole reason for it just backfires - forcing students drives them away from Irish, not towards it as it's intended. I wish people could get that into their heads. It's almost as if the goverment wants young people to despise the language - if not, then they would have restructured it's teaching years ago.

I think people would appreciate Irish more if given the option to learn it freely instead of having it forced down their throats.

As the Americans would say, you do the math.

The best available research in the area of second language learning(Carried out by the Canadians in case you think its just rabid Gaeilgoirs making stuff up) says that it takes 5000 hours of contact with a language to learn it to fluency, over the course of the average students time in the education system in Ireland they get 1200 hours of contact with Irish, which is just under the ammount of time needed for a basic ability in a language according to the same research. So is it just ridicuolus that Irish kids dont come out fluent in Irish?

Also, research indicates that time spent learning a second language is beneficial in an education system even if fluency in the language is not achieved.

But hey, don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant, god knows they rarely do. Oh and also, there is really very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread dislike of the Language its sel.

conor.hogan.2

In UCD and I imagine other colleges you have to pay money to enter no Béarla and in UCD wear a bright green hoody (it was bright green a few years ago anyway)

So pretty much everyone who does it means to do it you don't just stumble into it.

(that said my spoken Irish was terrible and I was not using Irish a lot that week but I did use it more than usual anyway)

Stained Class

deise go deo wrote: »

A small band of speakers indeed, but growing, and the number of young people fluent in Irish, who have had their entire education before going to Uni through Irish is growing and will continue to grow. Rome was not built in a day, but the foundations are already down.
The Minority is getting bigger.

Your'e living in La La Land, just like the rest of them.

Other aspects of Irish culture are thriving.

Irish music & dance.

Irish games, the GAA is doing very well at the mo.

Guess what?

They'e not compulsary in any zone of a childs education.

No resentment for the taxpeyer & much enjoyment given to Irish kids, including my own BTW.

conor.hogan.2

All this resentment and no action. Why?

Because there is no wide resentment to compulsory Irish. Just because you hold this belief does not mean the majority of the country do.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

You don't have to pay to claim to speak Irish on the census, you do if you want to join the Cumann Gaelach and to take part in No Béarla or any other events they run, that tends to seperate out people who are not interested fairly fast.

That's what I would have thought but it doesn't seem to. Maybe this new previous generation of gealgeoirs are even more delusional then the last if they think they are actually going to make any changes to the status que.

deise go deo wrote: »

A small band of speakers indeed, but growing, and the number of young people fluent in Irish, who have had their entire education before going to Uni through Irish is growing and will continue to grow. Rome was not built in a day, but the foundations are already down.
The Minority is getting bigger.

Rome wasn't built in a day my friend but language successful language revivals do not take 120 odd years from the foundation of the gaelic leauge. These sort of language revivals have been popping up since the begining of the state. Their numbers have waxed and waned over the years but have always remained under a certain ctritical mass. Maybe Irish society or culture is to blame for their failure. Or maybe it's the language it's self. I don't know but I do know with pretty high certainty that the same think is going to happen this time around.

"But wait" you say, "these kids have been taught irish in their gealscoil, they will use it because they have it." That's all well and good but the number of adults who have gone to grealscoils is also below that critical level and when they leave they assimulate back into main stream irish culture. Even the activist one's who want to use what language they have to maintain their skills will find themselves very hard pushed to find new speakers to converse with outside of their current circle of speakers. You could even go as far as saying since an irish speaker does not know who is an irish speaker or not they must first greet themselves in english to be sure of mutual engagement which then sets the precedent of the conversation. Any dissension from this will be seen as such. Giving an "artificial" nature to the conversation.

But anyway that's going off on a tangent. My point is simple. Speaking irish outside of perscribed settings is very difficult and nearly impossible with strangers. This is one of the reasons why irish will never regain prominence.

Stained Class

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

All this resentment and no action. Why?

Because there is no wide resentment to compulsory Irish. Just because you hold this belief does not mean the majority of the country do.

Empty vessels make the most noise.

The squeeky wheel gets the most oil.:rolleyes:

I'm kinda fed up with the squeaky wheels in our midst TBH..

They're costing the rest of us good money, which we (the taxpayer) can't afford.

Get a life!

PrincessLola

Stop trying to make Irish happen Grechen, its not going to happen.

policarp

Why is there so much Anti Irish on this thread?

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Rome wasn't built in a day my friend but language successful language revivals do not take 120 odd years from the foundation of the gaelic leauge. These sort of language revivals have been popping up since the begining of the state. Their numbers have waxed and waned over the years but have always remained under a certain ctritical mass. Maybe Irish society or culture is to blame for their failure. Or maybe it's the language it's self. I don't know but I do know with pretty high certainty that the same think is going to happen this time around.

Actually the progress of language shift is usually measured in generations, a compleat language shift such as took place in Ireland almost never happens, even here it took the best part of 500 years from the first time the then Kingdom of England set out to replace Irish with English for the process to be compleated, and it took several mass depopulations along the way to do it.

"But wait" you say, "these kids have been taught irish in their gealscoil, they will use it because they have it." That's all well and good but the number of adults who have gone to grealscoils is also below that critical level and when they leave they assimulate back into main stream irish culture. Even the activist one's who want to use what language they have to maintain their skills will find themselves very hard pushed to find new speakers to converse with outside of their current circle of speakers. You could even go as far as saying since an irish speaker does not know who is an irish speaker or not they must first greet themselves in english to be sure of mutual engagement which then sets the precedent of the conversation. Any dissension from this will be seen as such. Giving an "artificial" nature to the conversation.

Again your assuming that the number of Gaelscoil leavers will remain static at current levels, it wont, but lets not forget that the Gaelscoil movement 15-20 years ago was much smaller than it was now, the generation that came through the Gaelscoils even 10 years ago is much smaller than the one comming through now, by the time the third generation of Gaelscoil leavers come through the movement will be bigger again.
As for using the language, its called building a language community, its happening in many parts of the country at present.
Lets take Village X, in this village there are a hand full of Irish speakers, they speak Irish to each other and nothing much changes from year to year, then a Gaelscoil is founded in Village X, still nothing much changes, some years later the kids who started out in the local gaelscoil start leaving, many of them stay in the village, get jobs and in time start a family, now the Gaelscoil is still there and naturally enough they want to send their kids to it just like they were, except this time at least one parent also has Irish, so it gets used in the home as the child is growing up, to get the child ready for the Gaelscoil a Nionra is needed, so one is started, when they are finished in the Gaelscoil, obviously a new Gaelcholaiste has to be set up for them to go on and get their second Level education through Irish, so they set one of them up too. So here we have a new generation of young people who have gone to Irish Play school, Irish Primary school and Irish secondary school, with Irish in the home too, young people who grew up with Irish, made friends through Irish.
As they grew up youth groups through Irish got set up to provide activities for young Irish speakers, sports teams got set up that are run through Irish. Now we have a generation in Village X who have not just been educated through Irish, but who grew up through Irish, who socialise through Irish.
This generation may well still be a small minority in Village X, but they are their own Language community.

This is already happening around the country, its only starting off, there are only a handfull of areas that have Gaelscoils established long enough for a second generation to be comming through the school, but where there is, in places like Ballymun and Clondalkin, Loughrae in Galway there is already a vibrant Irish Language community that grows with each new year of kids that goes through the local school.

Thats how Irish is being and will be revived.

someuser905

complete waste of time
flogging a dead horse
we all speak english, get over it, its a much better language

GaryIrv93

deise go deo wrote: »

But hey, don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant, god knows they rarely do. Oh and also, there is really very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread dislike of the Language its sel.

It's an issue that deserves to be ranted about. I actually did state some facts in my post, including the fact that having Irish as a compulsory subject is getting the language nowhere. Having it compulsory does absolutely nothing to promote it. As a student especially, theres's few things that you can hate more than having an activity that you don't take interest in or need forced upon you. And I'm in no way ranting against the language itself - I've no problem with people speaking Irish, but being forced to do it is hardly promoting it nor is it making people speak it, or like it, even after 14 years of learning it. Don't you think this is a problem that needs to be looked at?

Your last point ''there is really very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread dislike of the Language itself'' Well there's also very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread like / love of the language itself either. At least not from what I've seen. Maybe more did actually vote that it should stay compulsory, but you have to take into consideration that only a certain amount of people voted - there's no opinions from schoolchildren, or teenagers. It was from adults who wanted their kids to study Irish without the child's opinion and that sort of age group. Not everyone in the country voted, and many of those ''Yes'' votes were purely out of national pride and simply for the sake of it, but that doesn't suggest that they like the langauge or whether they can speak it.

deise go deo

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

It's an issue that deserves to be ranted about.

Yes, but thats Kevin Myers's job.
http://vimeo.com/12683771

conor.hogan.2

Stained Class wrote: »

Get a life!

Do something about it then if you think you have any support for not making it compulsory. You are the squeaky wheel etc, the rest of Ireland, and the majority of it I might add, go on with life and have no problem with compulsory Irish whatsoever.

Your opinion, much like the number of Irish speakers, is in the minority so please do not act like it is not.

GaryIrv93

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, but thats Kevin Myers's job.
http://vimeo.com/12683771

It's a funny video, only Kevin Myers was attacking the language in that one, which isin't the issue. Having it compulsory for no valid reason is the issue.

yawha

deise go deo wrote: »

Lets take Village X, in this village there are a hand full of Irish speakers, they speak Irish to each other and nothing much changes from year to year, then a Gaelscoil is founded in Village X, still nothing much changes, some years later the kids who started out in the local gaelscoil start leaving, many of them stay in the village, get jobs and in time start a family, now the Gaelscoil is still there and naturally enough they want to send their kids to it just like they were, except this time at least one parent also has Irish, so it gets used in the home as the child is growing up, to get the child ready for the Gaelscoil a Nionra is needed, so one is started, when they are finished in the Gaelscoil, obviously a new Gaelcholaiste has to be set up for them to go on and get their second Level education through Irish, so they set one of them up too. So here we have a new generation of young people who have gone to Irish Play school, Irish Primary school and Irish secondary school, with Irish in the home too, young people who grew up with Irish, made friends through Irish.
As they grew up youth groups through Irish got set up to provide activities for young Irish speakers, sports teams got set up that are run through Irish. Now we have a generation in Village X who have not just been educated through Irish, but who grew up through Irish, who socialise through Irish.
This generation may well still be a small minority in Village X, but they are their own Language community.

But there've been loads of Village Xs throughout the last 100 years. The numbers of actual Irish speakers in these places is actually diminishing.

Like, no matter where you are in Ireland, you will be surrounded by English. It's the 21st century. Villages don't exist in a vacuum.

Also, being raised through Irish doesn't equate to a diehard passion for the language. In my experience, a lot of people who go to Gaelscoileanna, speak Irish at home etc. aren't necessarily all that devoted to the language.

I wasn't quite raised through Irish, but attended an Irish speaking secondary school. I like Irish. I think it's a very interesting and unique language. I love that I was educated in it and that I can speak it fluently.

But honestly, I barely spoke it after I left school. There were Irish societies in college, which I always thought would be nice to attend at some point, but I never did. I just don't have the passion for it. I think if you look at the numbers of active members of these societies versus the number of people going to universities who attended Irish speaking schools or come from Gaeltacht areas, you'd notice that it's a pretty low percentage.

And finally, a lot of the numbers of "Irish Speakers" you hear about really don't reflect how much Irish these people either can use full stop, or actually use on a day to day basis.

deise go deo

yawha wrote: »

But there've been loads of Village Xs throughout the last 100 years. The numbers of actual Irish speakers in these places is actually diminishing.

Like, no matter where you are in Ireland, you will be surrounded by English. It's the 21st century. Villages don't exist in a vacuum.

The thing is, Every village is a village X, there are a few Irish speakers in most parts of the country, somtimes they get to gether to promote the language through Conradh or Glor na nGeal, and for the most part things stay the same year after year, the same few people who care about the language trying to promote it and nothing much changing over time.

But then you get a Village X that has a Gaelscoil, there are loads of these around the country now, but the change does not happen over night, it takes up to 30 years, the main things is though that you dont need the students who come through the Gaelscoil to be diehard Gaeilgóirs, you just need them to see Irish as a normal and natural part of their lives.

You will get plenty former Gaelscoil pupils who once they walk out the gate will never speak Irish again, but that does not matter because you will also get plenty of Gaelscoil pupils who will use the language again, raise their families through Irish etc.
It is no coincidence that the longer a gaelscoil is established in an area, the more vibrant the Irish speaking community outside the school.

lividduck

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, but thats Kevin Myers's job.
http://vimeo.com/12683771

No thats the job of every person with a valid opinion in a democracy, we all have the right to rant, including the pro compulsory Irish advocates.
Why is it that those determined to deny choice are also so eager to deny the right to even have an opinion?

laoch na mona

make it the language of every state job and teach through Irish have a law saying multi national companies in Ireland have to conduct some of their business through Irish

lividduck

laoch na mona wrote: »

make it the language of every state job and teach through Irish have a law saying multi national companies in Ireland have to conduct some of their business through Irish

That is the height of nonsense, maybe you should also insist that Google hire a given percentage of tooth-fairies as well!

laoch na mona

lividduck wrote: »

That is the height of nonsense, maybe you should also insist that Google hire a given percentage of tooth-fairies as well!

explain why it is nonsense

LordSutch

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Because there is no wide resentment to compulsory Irish. Just because you hold this belief does not mean the majority of the country do.

And neither has there been over the last eighty years (well not vocally), and yet the language is stuck in limbo, many people say they want it, yet they can't be bothered to speak it, but its still a compulsory subject in school, right through to leaving cert.

Question: What ground breaking change can possibly ignite the Irish language? or are we deemed to carry on with this farcical situation wherby we want the language, and we want it to remain as a compulsory subject in school, yet we don't really want to speak it (en masse) :cool:

deise go deo

lividduck wrote: »

No thats the job of every person with a valid opinion in a democracy, we all have the right to rant, including the pro compulsory Irish advocates.
Why is it that those determined to deny choice are also so eager to deny the right to even have an opinion?

:rolleyes: Can always count on you to aim high in the hyperbole. Where exactly have those favouring compulsion tried to prevent you or anyone else from having an opinion?

If the extent of it is ranting on a discussion forum or in the sindo in Myers case, then the language has very little to worry about.