How to revive the Irish language.

conor.hogan.2

paullyons00 wrote: »

some kind of pro-communist loo-la

That is an insult to communists and "loo-las".

The King of Moo

Jess16 wrote: »

Another thinly veiled teacher bashing thread :rolleyes:

Languages are learned through immersion and retained through use -not the incredibly limited number of hours permitted to teachers by the curriculum that they're supposed to work miracles with.

But hey, don't let that stop you from blaming teachers because you haven't bothered your barney to put in an ounce of effort outside of the 45 minutes a day you chose to sleep through at school and expect to come out fluent.

Taithí a dhéanann máistreacht!

True, but the teaching of a language in school should make the student interested enough to gain that experience outside of class.

I actually wouldn't blame individual teachers: like with every profession, there's good ones and bad ones. In secondary school I had one terrible teacher and one great one, and I learned a lot more under the latter.
I'd blame the curriculum they have to work in which doesn't have enough emphasis on teaching the basics in primary school and puts too much emphasis on literature too soon and too little on making the language fun (this is based on my experience and I know things might be better now, though from what I hear it's not so different).

I agree some people have a negative attitude towards the language and don't put the work in, but I think in some cases that's caused by the way it's taught and it develops into a vicious cycle.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Get Des Bishop to make a hip and funky comedy series about learning Irish and have it broadcast on RTE.

ejmaztec

cocoshovel wrote: »

Id rather emmigrate

The OP and a few other will be prattling away to each other in a small hut in the middle of the hugely expanded Gaeltacht area, and the rest will be gone laughing their way to the docks and airports.

Jess16

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'd blame the curriculum they have to work in which doesn't have enough emphasis on teaching the basics in primary school and puts too much emphasis on literature too soon and too little on making the language fun (this is based on my experience and I know things might be better now, though from what I hear it's not so different)

It's entirely different. The Primary Curriculum for Irish is sub-divided into 4 realms of reading, writing, talking and listening with a games based approach for all categories. Try committing new vocabulary to a child's memory when a large number of parents refuse to even look at Irish homework with them.

Micky Dolenz

Jess16 wrote: »

Another thinly veiled teacher bashing thread :rolleyes:

Languages are learned through immersion and retained through use -not the incredibly limited number of hours permitted to teachers by the curriculum that they're supposed to work miracles with.

But hey, don't let that stop you from blaming teachers because you haven't bothered your barney to put in an ounce of effort outside of the 45 minutes a day you chose to sleep through at school and expect to come out fluent.

Taithí a dhéanann máistreacht!

No one mentioned teacher bashing, until you did.

Self fulfilling prophecy.

Ave Sodalis

I think in Primary schools, we should only learn how to speak it and that's all. No written or reading, just speaking. Then in Secondary school, start to learn to read and write it, the same way we do with English in Primary.

The way it's taught now is it's all loaded onto you at once and most people become over whelmed and hence the hatred

The King of Moo

Jess16 wrote: »

It's entirely different. The Primary Curriculum for Irish is sub-divided into 4 realms of reading, writing, talking and listening with a games based approach for all categories. Try committing new vocabulary to a child's memory when a large number of parents refuse to even look at Irish homework with them.

That does sound a lot better.

Hopefully it's also combined with a better emphasis on English grammar in English lessons so that pupils can relate the Irish grammar to the English equivalents.

When I did my TEFL training I realised how much more difficult it had been learning Irish and French and being introduced to certain tenses when we didn't know their English equivalents (where they existed).

I think it'll be difficult to get many parents to help kids with their extra-curricular Irish-learning when the parents themselves probably have poor Irish and no interest in it due to the old system.
Maybe something simple lick a mandatory hour or two of TG4 per week would be a good start.

Mountainlad

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

After I read the bit in bold, I thought 'What's gonna happen when they fail this second exam? Deportation? Haha'.

Your idea was even more stupid than I imagined...

Jess16

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think it'll be difficult to get many parents to help kids with their extra-curricular Irish-learning when the parents themselves probably have poor Irish and no interest in it

That's precisely the common misconception -homework is not 'extra-curricular', it's an integral final phase of the learning process. Bypass consolidation and most learning is forgotten.

The King of Moo

Jess16 wrote: »

That's precisely the common misconception -homework is not 'extra-curricular', it's an integral final phase of the learning process. Bypass consolidation and most learning is forgotten.

You're right, "extra-curricular" wasn't the best choice of word.

I've seen what you're talking about with teenage English-language students. I've had students from Japan who only ever spoke English in the classroom and they could reel off the different forms of any verb you threw at them, but they couldn't string a sentence together (shyness was part of that too).

I've seen the same thing to a lesser extent with Spanish and Italian students, where English is generally not taught so well and so often, compared to northern European countries where they have better English teaching and students tend to be more willing to engage with English-language culture (films, tv, music etc), partly due to having more confidence in the language from their classes, but also due to encouragement from their parents who would generally have a decent standard of English.

Unfortunately that's the problem here: it's hard to get kids speaking and listening to Irish outside of school when their parents have often grown up resenting the language and can't really speak it.

Tonyandthewhale

paullyons00 wrote: »

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

Do you have even the remotest idea of what communism actually is?

Israel introduced Hebrew very successfully just after WWII by making all internal government services available in only Hebrew.

wilkie2006

I think that the government has a great chance of promoting the language now, in these austerity years. The Celtic Tiger's gone and there's a vacuum in terms of cultural identity. I think that if the Dept of Education consulted with a collection of sociologists and other academics, as well as marketing agencies, they could come up with a very effective programme to help make Irish relevant in people's lives. It would require some very on-the-ball and radical moves though and I'm not convinced our mandarins are very good at that.

bb1234567

Deleted User wrote: »

Israel introduced Hebrew very successfully just after WWII by making all internal government services available in only Hebrew.

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

wilkie2006

Babybuff wrote: »

would never work, the way Irish is taught makes it impossible to learn and use in our daily lives. It is mostly grammar based and less constructive to fluent expression. The only way to learn it would be to hear it spoken regularly and eventually you will be able to reciprocate. you can figure out the grammar afterwards.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with teaching a language through focusing on its grammar - I learned French this way and found it very effective. The problem with how Irish is taught is the teachers. Perhaps the curriculum is structured awkwardly but none of them have ever been able to impose any structure on the Irish syllabus. It seemed like I learned the same thing every single year in school - no matter how old I was there was never any progression.

44leto

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

What if people did not want to, what if I as an Irish citizen, born here, insisted that I would be dealt with in English.

bb1234567

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

Yes, but it needs a willing population as well, and judging on the responses that any thread on the subject there is a significant number who are dead set against Irish being made popular.

I see no point in blaming the education system, if the children have parents that don't care about the language and in many cases run when the Irish homework comes out.

I help the kids with Irish (I was educated in England) , the missus has completely forgotton almost all of it.

It's an attitude issue, most Irish people have the wrong attitude for Irish to flourish!

kowloon

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

Do you have even the remotest idea of what communism actually is?

Isn't it that time the Russians all got together to talk about collectivisation as Gaeilge?

Run_to_da_hills

There is only effectively way to revive the Irish language is to ban it outright.

If the EU came up with a law prohibiting bilingual notices, government documents and speaking it in public etc you can guarantee that every one on the entire nation will want to start speaking it just for spite.

The King of Moo

wilkie2006 wrote: »

I don't think that there's anything wrong with teaching a language through focusing on its grammar - I learned French this way and found it very effective. The problem with how Irish is taught is the teachers. Perhaps the curriculum is structured awkwardly but none of them have ever been able to impose any structure on the Irish syllabus. It seemed like I learned the same thing every single year in school - no matter how old I was there was never any progression.

You really need a little bit of everything when learning a language: grammar, reading, writing and speaking. Kids are well able to handle it.
I'd probably prioritise speaking over reading and writing in the early stages, but it has to be complemented by teaching grammar too.

Just learning to speak it would mean you'd only learn off phrases by heart but you wouldn't be able to put your own sentences together, which is critical.

One of the reasons we found it harder to learn languages in my day was because we'd never been taught basic English grammar like the different tenses (most adults couldn't name them). That made it very difficult because we'd be told about Irish or French tenses, but have little idea of what their English equivalents were.

The European countries with the higher levels of English also tend to be the ones where students are provided with a good grounding in their native tongue's grammar too.

saa

Gentle nagging UNTIL YOU LOVE IRISH, YOU LOVE IT YOU DIRTY SLAG AND I BET YOU LOVE GOING TO MASS AS WELL DON'T YOU.

lecker Hendl

Most people haven't mastered the English language yet (LOL wut omg!!!), so asking them to become fluent in Irish in 5 years is nonsense.

44leto

saa wrote: »

Gentle nagging UNTIL YOU LOVE IRISH, YOU LOVE IT YOU DIRTY SLAG AND I BET YOU LOVE GOING TO MASS AS WELL DON'T YOU.

WILL YAH SUDDUP JUST SHUDDUP Ta me ag speaketh sa gailge.

wilkie2006

44leto wrote: »

What if people did not want to, what if I as an Irish citizen, born here, insisted that I would be dealt with in English.

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

Come on, there's no point in making people learn Irish through such extreme methods. The only way to do it is through clever marketing. Adults' perceptions of the language need to be challenged. The government needs to change people's minds through a clever advertising strategy and then have an accessible and enjoyable Irish language programme waiting for people to enroll in.

wilkie2006

The King of Moo wrote: »

One of the reasons we found it harder to learn languages in my day was because we'd never been taught basic English grammar like the different tenses (most adults couldn't name them). That made it very difficult because we'd be told about Irish or French tenses, but have little idea of what their English equivalents were.

Really good point. +100, really.

I think the reason I found French so easy (well, relatively easy) was because on day one the teacher started off with, "This is a noun, this in an adjective, this is an adverb..."

wilkie2006

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Come on, there's no point in making people learn Irish through such extreme methods. The only way to do it is through clever marketing. Adults' perceptions of the language need to be challenged. The government needs to change people's minds through a clever advertising strategy and then have an accessible and enjoyable Irish language programme waiting for people to enroll in.

A few Guinness adverts as Gaeilge would be a good example, it needs businesses to support the language and for people to accept it.

Remember the Carsberg advert, took the piss out of Irish but was probably the most helpful advert ever to raise the profile of Irish.

The King of Moo

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Really good point. +100, really.

I think the reason I found French so easy (well, relatively easy) was because on day one the teacher started off with, "This is a noun, this in an adjective, this is an adverb..."

The frustrating thing is that it would take very little time and effort to teach English grammar to young kids, and it would stick with them as it would really just be giving labels to things they already knew.

We did some very basic grammar in sixth class, just what a noun, verb and adjective were.

Then the next year we had to learn "le present parfait" in French, when we had no idea what the present perfect was in English, and our teacher never told us about it.

LordSutch

paullyons00 wrote: »

How to revive the Irish language.

Make Irish a non compulsory leaving Cert subject, take the mandatory nature out of it (even as an experiment), give the language back to those families who want their children to learn it, therefore giving the langaage a much more positive image at home. Currently there is far too much negativity associated with the language due to the way its been forcefully 'mistaught' for decades. There is also a negative generational issue wherby parents who had a bad experience of Irish in school (me included) don't want their children to experience the same grief that we did.

I am not anti the Irish language, but I do think that it should be a non mandatory subject, certainly for LC students, therefore giving the language room the breath in a positive 'non forced' environment. This new environment would in my opinion help Irish to revive in a slow but "positive" and progressive manner.

GaryIrv93

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

That wouldn't work either as very few people can speak proper Irish apart from a few basic cupla focail. People would demand to have everything put back into English,