How to revive the Irish language.

MysticalRain

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Well if you were poor and amongst poor people (as I and anyone over the age of say 30 odd was) and then seen the country during the boom years, you would be well aware that there is more to life and "happiness" than just money and that money can't actually buy that.
A government runs a country like someone running a home, if someone put all their effort into making more money and ignores the things that I mentioned above, then they have what to most is a pretty dull existence, even people with very little money still put effort into making their home pleasant place to live and consequently making life more comfortable.
The current economic state of the country is also not the fault of the Irish language, but of people prioritising the making of money over the Gross National Happiness of this land, don't forget that.

Indeed most of us learn more in our 60/70 years out of school than our 15 odd years in it.

All of those points make perfect sense to most people. I think you are veering off on a tangent by focusing more on greed/materialism Vs simply having a decent job to put food on the table, which many people in this country don't even have at the moment.

Also, a healthy productive economy provides the funds to support arts and culture. So the two aspects go hand in hand in a way.

The current economic state of the country is also not the fault of the Irish language, but of people prioritising the making of money over the Gross National Happiness of this land, don't forget that.

I'm not saying Irish is entirely to blame. What we are really talking about here is the solution to lead us out of the current economic situation i.e. modernizing the education system so it focuses less on subjects like Irish and more on subjects which are suitable for the knowledge economy. Otherwise employers like the one I currently work for will have little choice but to ignore Irish graduates in favour of better educated foreign ones.

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

All of those points make perfect sense to most people. I think you are veering off on a tangent by focusing more on greed/materialism Vs simply having a decent job to put food on the table, which many people in this country don't even have at the moment.

Also, a healthy productive economy provides the funds to support arts and culture. So the two aspects go hand in hand in a way.


I'm not saying Irish is entirely to blame. What we are really talking about here is the solution to lead us out of the current economic situation i.e. modernizing the education system so it focuses less on subjects like Irish and more on subjects which are suitable for the knowledge economy. Otherwise employers like the one I currently work for will have little choice but to ignore Irish graduates in favour of better educated foreign ones.

Since were quite able to drag ourselves out of the 70's and 80's problems while still retaining the teaching of Irish in school, and indeed have* or at least had a well educated population, I can't see how its removal has any actual bearing on the general level of education in this country, or on economic growth.

I know there are issues surrounding compulsion, university etc but lets just stick to the actual primary and secondary school teaching and learning, and the supposed "waste of time" issue.


*Though I am too far removed from the education system to know too much about it today, I know the levels of education here were very high and something we were all quite proud of.

LordSutch

What ever happened to the Fine Gael/Enda Kenny plan to relax the mandatory teaching of Irish in our schools? I seem to remeber a lot of talk about this subject prior to the last election, but its all gone very quiet now :cool:

dubhthach

LordSutch wrote: »

What ever happened to the Fine Gael/Enda Kenny plan to relax the mandatory teaching of Irish in our schools? I seem to remeber a lot of talk about this subject prior to the last election, but its all gone very quiet now :cool:

Politicians for ye after all wasn't it not suppose to be "labours way or frankfurt's way" as well.

Diapason

Part of the problem, of course, is that as things stand with the LC unless you can point at either 1) future utility, or 2) easy points, virtually nobody who isn't already an Irish speaker would choose an optional Irish course. This, IMO, is one of the failings of the LC (that I'm defending ardently elsewhere!)

One of the ideas of transition year when it was introduced was that pupils could learn things outside of this very straight system, broadening their experience and expertise in the process. Everything I've seen says that hasn't worked, so what I'd like to see in any overhaul of the LC system is a mandatory amount of time spent in the classroom every week on areas that WON'T be examined. I know this seems perverse, but the question of utility keeps popping up here and in many ways it's a shame. There are so many areas that deserve study outside of the rigours of standardised testing, and maybe Irish could be one of those. I suspect a lot of people would continue doing it under such circumstances, and those that did would be interested rather than coerced.

I haven't thought this through at all, but I feel strongly that the stick hasn't really worked, the carrot isn't really there, so it's time to look to alternatives.

An Coilean

dubhthach wrote: »

Politicians for ye after all wasn't it not suppose to be "labours way or frankfurt's way" as well.

As for as compulsion in schools, it seems it actually was Labours way, they supported the maintenance of compulsion during the election.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

As for as compulsion in schools, it seems it actually was Labours way, they supported the maintenance of compulsion during the election.

The matter at issue was only compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert: whether or not it should be a subject of choice for pupils at that stage. I understand that this is still Fine Gael policy but in the programme for Government, Labour insisted that the problem be kicked into the long grass. So the Programme says that a great new effort of revival would first be made and then if that failed the Leaving Cert matter would be considered.

But Ruairí Quinn has said that tackling the problem of illiteracy would take priority over eveything else and that the large amount of time given to Irish in Primary School would be considered by him in that context.

So far: no sign of movement...

Lord TSC

LordSutch wrote: »

What ever happened to the Fine Gael/Enda Kenny plan to relax the mandatory teaching of Irish in our schools? I seem to remeber a lot of talk about this subject prior to the last election, but its all gone very quiet now :cool:

Its been said before but the problem is there that the pro-compulsion side of the debate will get up and protest such movements, while the rest of us don't really care. As such, cause they shout louder, the government listen to the pro-compulsioners and drop plans quickly. That, however, is the nature of a political system where they have to worry not about the country but about being popular....

An Coilean

Interest in History wrote: »

But Ruairí Quinn has said that tackling the problem of illiteracy would take priority over eveything else and that the large amount of time given to Irish in Primary School would be considered by him in that context.

So far: no sign of movement...

Indeed he did, unfortunatly since the committe on education reform reported that literacy skills learned in one language are transferable from one language to another, he really dose'nt have a leg to stand on there.

Cú Giobach

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Its been said before but the problem is there that the pro-compulsion side of the debate will get up and protest such movements, while the rest of us don't really care. As such, cause they shout louder, the government listen to the pro-compulsioners and drop plans quickly. That, however, is the nature of a political system where they have to worry not about the country but about being popular....

So where is the problem then I'm genuinely intrigued by that. I really thought you did care, if you don't then all is grand surely?

MysticalRain

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Since were quite able to drag ourselves out of the 70's and 80's problems while still retaining the teaching of Irish in school, and indeed have* or at least had a well educated population, I can't see how its removal has any actual bearing on the general level of education in this country, or on economic growth.

I know there are issues surrounding compulsion, university etc but lets just stick to the actual primary and secondary school teaching and learning, and the supposed "waste of time" issue.


*Though I am too far removed from the education system to know too much about it today, I know the levels of education here were very high and something we were all quite proud of.

There lies the point. It isn't the 70's/80's anymore, and our general level of education has stagnated. We have slipped down the PISA rankings, 25% of the adult population is functionally illiterate, a similar number have problems with basic math, IT literacy among the school leavers is generally poor, and we still do not have computer science as a subject at 2nd level. The only way we can fix those problems is through major reform of the entire school curriculum.

Lord TSC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So where is the problem then I'm genuinely intrigued by that. I really thought you did care, if you don't then all is grand surely?

I care that people are forced to partake in a subject they don't care about. I don't care about the language, and I care about the compulsion nature of it. Ultimatly though, I don't care enough to get out there and protest about it on the street. I'll argue and debate it though on a forum board since that doesn't take much effort :P But it's not a big part of my life in anyway; when I close the internet page, my non-Irish life goes on without a second thought to the matter.

And, again I say, it all comes back to a level of resentment. If you want to revive the language, you've got to realise alot of people resent having to "learn" the language. I've wasted enough time over the school years, and won't waste more now on it in terms of going out and doing something to change the system. But the compulsion, the forcing it upon people, only means that a lot of people, once done the courses, will be quite happy to drop it and never need it again. Agan I say, you need to develop a passion in people at large and yet ignore the biggest passion-killer out there.

But whats the point of starting a topic up asking how to revive the language, which is really aimed thusly at people with no interest and is asking them what would revive their interest in the language, and then argue against one of the biggest complaints to the death?

Weirdly, it's never the anti-compulsion side that start up these topics; they inevitably always seem to be started up by the Revivalists.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I care that people are forced to partake in a subject they don't care about. I don't care about the language, and I care about the compulsion nature of it. Ultimatly though, I don't care enough to get out there and protest about it on the street. I'll argue and debate it though on a forum board since that doesn't take much effort :P But it's not a big part of my life in anyway; when I close the internet page, my non-Irish life goes on without a second thought to the matter.

And, again I say, it all comes back to a level of resentment. If you want to revive the language, you've got to realise alot of people resent having to "learn" the language. I've wasted enough time over the school years, and won't waste more now on it in terms of going out and doing something to change the system. But the compulsion, the forcing it upon people, only means that a lot of people, once done the courses, will be quite happy to drop it and never need it again. Agan I say, you need to develop a passion in people at large and yet ignore the biggest passion-killer out there.

But whats the point of starting a topic up asking how to revive the language, which is really aimed thusly at people with no interest and is asking them what would revive their interest in the language, and then argue against one of the biggest complaints to the death?

Weirdly, it's never the anti-compulsion side that start up these topics; they inevitably always seem to be started up by the Revivalists.

I get the not bothering to go out on the street and protest, but there is plenty of stuff you could do that would not take up any more time than posting here.

E-mail your local TD, start a Facebook group or online petition.

As for who starts these threads, have a search, plenty of them started to have a moan about how much is wasted on Irish and how useless it is.

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

There lies the point. It isn't the 70's/80's anymore, and our general level of education has stagnated. We have slipped down the PISA rankings, 25% of the adult population is functionally illiterate, a similar number have problems with basic math, IT literacy among the school leavers is generally poor, and we still do not have computer science as a subject at 2nd level. The only way we can fix those problems is through major reform of the entire school curriculum.

Sure the curriculum needs reform, and one of the biggest issues I see above is literacy, I would certainly put that above maths or computer science and language teaching and literacy do go hand in hand.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I care that people are forced to partake in a subject they don't care about. I don't care about the language, and I care about the compulsion nature of it. Ultimatly though, I don't care enough to get out there and protest about it on the street. I'll argue and debate it though on a forum board since that doesn't take much effort :P But it's not a big part of my life in anyway; when I close the internet page, my non-Irish life goes on without a second thought to the matter.

Ok, it just seems odd that someone who has no interest in something sees it as a "problem" that a government yields to the wishes of those that do.
Primarily because you say it's not just a problem they yielded to people who do care, but to a majority who do care. They according to you made the "popular" decision.
Though I fully understand and do believe minorities needs should be catered for by governments.

Thanks anyway, I was just intrigued by all that.

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

What I am interested in, is the learning of language in general and will discuss the pros and cons of that, obviously including Irish.
Points I raise here are not surrounding compulsion, only questioning whether actually learning Irish is a negative or positive thing for the people of this island.

Certainly a very broad formulation of the question, which presumably is calling forth a plethera of varying answers.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

Certainly a very broad formulation of the question, which presumably is calling forth a plethera of varying answers.

Indeed, been having some great chats about language and fortunately not getting bogged down in the usual old arguments that these threads can produce, been there too many times and couldn't be arsed going there again.
Thanks for your interest.

FionnK86

The power of the irish educational system to revive our language is insignificant compared to the power of the force

Lord TSC

An Coilean wrote: »

I get the not bothering to go out on the street and protest, but there is plenty of stuff you could do that would not take up any more time than posting here.

E-mail your local TD, start a Facebook group or online petition.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but come on. You cannot be naive enough to think an online petition or Facebook group is enough to tackle the power of the Revivalist lobby groups. Online petitions at the best of time are useless, but they'd be absolutly pointless going up against the passion of the pro-compulsion people who have and will go out and protest on the streets.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

There are any number of polls on peoples attitude to the future of the Irish language, time and again the result has been that people are in favour of preserving and promoting the language.

These polls were commissioned and designed by the Irish language lobby and interpreted by them.

The biggest, and most accurate poll of of them all is: what language do almost all Irish people choose to speak on a daily basis?

Dangerous Man

You could try shouting at it...









WAKE UP! WAKE UP IRISH LANGUAGE!!!

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but come on. You cannot be naive enough to think an online petition or Facebook group is enough to tackle the power of the Revivalist lobby groups. Online petitions at the best of time are useless, but they'd be absolutly pointless going up against the passion of the pro-compulsion people who have and will go out and protest on the streets.

Ya, but most of the time they are not out on the street, protests are actually fairly rare, theres only been two in recent years to my knolowedge, and one of them was not even about compulsion.
They are on facebook, creating petitions, sending in emails and talking to their TDs.
All stuff you can do, and can encourage others to do, and it would not be any more work than the effort you have put into posting on this thread..

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Indeed, been having some great chats about language and fortunately not getting bogged down in the usual old arguments that these threads can produce, been there too many times and couldn't be arsed going there again.
Thanks for your interest.

Yes - again.

Given my slant, my interest became an investigation of the Revival of Irish as a political ideology. And so, the basic questions - Cui bono and who-whom came to the fore. Who is benefitting from this, who is the driver, and who is the driven? And like all ideologies The Revival contains a quasi-religious element and this adds its own spicy ingredient to the mix.

I'm trying to note any changes just now in the political support-base for the ideology supportive or the opposite. The politicos usually take mask their position on this. No conclusion yet.

It's time for me to quit the debate for a while. I'll be travelling.

Lord TSC

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, but most of the time they are not out on the street, protests are actually fairly rare, theres only been two in recent years to my knolowedge, and one of them was not even about compulsion.
They are on facebook, creating petitions, sending in emails and talking to their TDs.
All stuff you can do, and can encourage others to do, and it would not be any more work than the effort you have put into posting on this thread..

I know the last time there was a topic like this, it coincided with some protest in Dublin (over the moving of an Irish office iirc). That was a group with posters, banners and the likes; a proper protest movement. I say this as a compliment to your side of the debate; your passionate. It just means that even if an online petition worked (and I'm of the opinion they never work on any topic), your side of the debate would mobilize to defend their beliefs and march about it.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I know the last time there was a topic like this, it coincided with some protest in Dublin (over the moving of an Irish office iirc). That was a group with posters, banners and the likes; a proper protest movement. I say this as a compliment to your side of the debate; your passionate. It just means that even if an online petition worked (and I'm of the opinion they never work on any topic), your side of the debate would mobilize to defend their beliefs and march about it.

Ya, in fairness that was a few students with nothing better to do.

No doubt they would come out an protest, but surely getting to that stage, and raising awareness of the issue is success in its self?

podgeandrodge

If you want a laugh and want to see what our taxes are being spent on have a look at the investigations carried out by the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga. Not blaming them personally as they have to carry out the function, blaming the Official Languages Act that has this farcical waste of public money being foisted on us in the current environment.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=imscrudaithe&tid=32&lang=english

Clareboy

In order to revive the Irish language, we need to forget about govermment bodies and schools and try and foster a love of the language among the ordinary Irish people. I would suggest that Irish language classes for adults, whose Irish is ' rusty ' be set in every parish hall in the country. The classes could be taught by teachers and others who love the language and want to help others to learn it. Our native Irish language is the most beautiful thing that we have as a nation. With a little effort and imagination, it could be easily revived.

Interest in History

Clareboy wrote: »

Our native Irish language is the most beautiful thing that we have as a nation.

Can you start the process of engagement right now by giving us some examples that illustrate this richness and that connect to people's feelings?

Just do it, man!

Interest in History

Clareboy wrote: »

In order to revive the Irish language, we need to forget about govermment bodies and schools and try and foster a love of the language among the ordinary Irish people. .

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

It must be some group, obviously distinct from the "ordinary Irish people" whom you specify as the target of your action. The "we" must be a missionery group of some sort, I guess?

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

Interest in History

podgeandrodge wrote: »

If you want a laugh and want to see what our taxes are being spent on have a look at the investigations carried out by the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga. Not blaming them personally as they have to carry out the function, blaming the Official Languages Act that has this farcical waste of public money being foisted on us in the current environment.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=imscrudaithe&tid=32&lang=english[/QUOTE]

Yes: don't miss those reports. And remember: everybody involved in producing them is getting a state salary and will get a state pension.

But try to find time to look at the Dáil reports on late night television so that you can see in action the buffoons who are the source of all this "official-government" nonsense. The people who were "Reviving Irish" in their fantasies while at the same time they were ruining us in reality. They have faces and names, you know.

indioblack

Interest in History wrote: »

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

It must be some group, obviously distinct from the "ordinary Irish people" whom you specify as the target of your action. The "we" must be a missionery group of some sort, I guess?

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

"Structured evasion" That's good, you have to hand it to them.
Didn't Sir Humphrey have the phrase "masterly inactivity"?
With my dealings with my Irish relatives it was their way of telling you that they wouldn't be doing what you want - but ensuring that you weren't offended by the refusal - in fact you were never entirely sure that they had refused at all.