How to revive the Irish language.

Diapason

Interest in History wrote: »

This was quoted in connection with the fact that Professor Timothy Corcoran was the chief ideologue of the policy of compulsion.

Two points: he was Father Timothy Corcoran, a Jesuit, and he was professor of Education in University College Dublin. He was completely unqualified for that post but at the time there was a strong strand of thinking in the Catholic Church in favour of isolating their Irish flock from the the evils of the outside world by establishing a different language here. And the Church part-controlled UCD and fully controlled the system of education in general.

But he was not the chief ideologue. That was Eamonn de Valera, but he was following after people like Ernest Blythe and Eoghan MacNeill of the first independent government. None of them gave a damn about education as will be seen from their own statements - see google.com/site/failedrevival.

After 1922 the education system was fully in the hands of two interest groups who used their power to advance their own ideologies - the Catholic Church and the Irish Revivalists.

Thanks for this post. Very interesting indeed.

I find this whole issue very interesting, but I'm far out of my depth in this thread so I'd better not contribute. Ultimately, the "how" in the thread title is a bit of a misnomer, since we've yet to get past the "why".

An Coilean

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

Amen to this, I work for a big search machine with colorful letters in Dublin and you want to know how big the demand for Irish is? 0. (and this is more than 4000 employees)...

Everything this post above states is the truth and facts.

Really, why did that company with the colorful letters recently provide its online interactive map in Irish then? Do you think it was translated by voulenteers?

An Coilean

Phoenixuk wrote: »

I work for a multinational service centre based in Ireland, and we have about 200 staff on phones and email connections daily dealing with issues around the world.

Do you know what languages we support?

English.
French.
German.

We have people that speak everything from Slovenian to Korean, but no business is ever done in these languages. I know of FOUR agents in the building that consider themselves fluent in Irish, and never use it (unless they're cracking jokes at me for being the token English). Irish isn't dead, but reviving it as a primary language will not happen unless it becomes something people do business in. Money talks.

You don't go to school to learn to be a cultured, refined individual, you go to school to learn how to learn.

You go to college and university to expand on that learning and improve your prospects in the future in the world of work.

Irish offers students nothing other than (from what I can tell) the option of government work, which to be honest isn't all it's cracked up to be, and a few points on top of the score that they get for free. Which helps them not at all when they arrive at University. Your Particle Physics lecturer will not give you a better grade because you have attempted to complete your thesis in Irish.

That doesn't happen when people actually need you to explain your ideas.

You want to make a living working for a massive multi-national entertainment firm? Better speak English, because they're (usually) American or one of the up and coming Asian groups that all use English to speak to the marketplace.

Want to work for the large banking firms? Better speak English, because everyone else in the industry does.

Want to make movies/music/theatre? Better make them in English if you actually want an audience (French if you want an award for being Artistic).

Pharmaceuticals? Same deal as Entertainment.

Want to fly a plane? You see where I'm going with this.

Irish as a language could be revived if the work and process is put in place, but what then? Congratulations on preserving the language, but... what are you going to do with it? The business world does not want Irish, or Welsh, or Khazakstani, or Pnang-nang, or any of the other million and one native languages disappearing slowly into history.

Actually scratch that, everyone should start learning Cantonese the way things are going in China...

I am not suggesting that we can make Irish the internal language of Multinational businesses, but it is a well known axiom in business that if you are trying to sell to me, you speak my language.

If a bsuiness want to operate in a Bilingual community, it will have to be able to provide its service in both languages.

For example, I read an interesting case study on the City of Belzano in northern Italy, The city has an almost even split between German speakers and Italian speakers.
Both comunities are able to speak the others language, but if a business tried to provide its services in only one language, it would be seen as excluding the other language community as a result and would suffer for it.

The business world may not want to use Welsh or Khazakstani or Irish, but if you want to sell your service or product to the people who speak those languages, you can be damm well sure that you will deal with them in their language.

LeeroyJ.

An Coilean wrote: »

Really, why did that company with the colorful letters recently provide its online interactive map in Irish then? Do you think it was translated by voulenteers?

making Google available in Gaeilge is mandatory because it is a official language in Ireland, just like Māori in New Zealand or Rumantsch in Switzerland.
But from a Market perspective these languages make no money and you will never receive a job with one of these companies because you speak one of the above mentioned languages. They are niche products that are required not needed.

If you want to fight the unemployment rate of almost 15% in Ireland teach the children a language that will actually get them a job such as Chinese, German, French, Spanish,Russian ...

An Coilean

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

making Google available in Gaeilge is mandatory because it is a official language in Ireland, just like Māori in New Zealand or Rumantsch in Switzerland.

Nonsence, the Official Languages act has no bearing on Private companies, Google was under no obligation to provide its site in Irish.

ViveLaVie

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If the learning of more than one language was something not inbuilt into all of us then this would become obvious in childhood, almost any child can easily pick up a number of languages and bring multilingualism to adulthood. The only people who seem to have difficulty are those who "don't use it and consequently loose it" or those with learning disabilities.

While that's true studies show that unless a language is learned before a critical age (I think it's 12) then it is almost impossible to become entirely fluent. Obviously you could have a very very high degree of profiency in the language but you could never speak/think in it with the same complexity and ease as a native speaker. Before 12 the brain soaks up language like a sponge.

LeeroyJ.

An Coilean wrote: »

Nonsence, the Official Languages act has no bearing on Private companies, Google was under no obligation to provide its site in Irish.

It is mandatory due to the Endangered Languages Project, that I support. What I'm saying is that while it is offered in these languages, barely anyone uses it and it is more or less a respect towards them it ain't making any money and that is what county in todays world. I'm all for preserving extinct languages but there is a difference between preserving and forcing it upon people. The demand is somewhere else and a country that has such huge economic problems should maybe rethink the system from ground up.

An Coilean

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

It is mandatory due to the Endangered Languages Project, that I support.

Its is manditory for Google to provide their website in a language, because that language is part of the Endangered Languages Project they decided to start?

Again, I am failing to see how they were forced to do this?



Your first post claimed that the demand for Irish was 0.

Now clearly thats not true.

You claimed Google had to provide its services in Irish because Irish was an Official Language in Ireland, thats not true either.
Now you are saying they had to do it because Irish is part of their Endangered Languages Project, again not ture, the google Home Page, and Google Translate were both available in Irish long before they started the Endangered Languages project.
Not to mention that neither the google home page nor google Translate are available in all the languages in their endangered languages project.


Google were not forced to Use Irish, they choose to.

Enkidu

Wibbs wrote: »

To me some languages seem easier to sound native in, depending on the origin of the speaker of course.

This is definitely true. In linguistics this is due to the difference between phonetics and phonology.

Phonetics is about the objective sounds, i.e. the sounds that objectively exist.

Phonology is about the sounds as they manifest in a language. Or sounds as they are understood by speakers of the language.

For instance, the p in pot and the p in stop are actually two completely different sounds. (Objectively, they are more dissimilar than p and b.) Of course English speakers perceive them as the same sound. If pointed out, we intuitively just understand them as p and p with a little bit more force.

So in English these two sounds, p (stop) and p(h) (put), make one phoneme, which we call p. Several languages wouldn't consider them one sound and would have two phonemes. Some languages not only consider them the same sound, but actually consider b to be the same as well. In those language p,p(h) and b are one phoneme.

The point is that the objective sounds don't change, just what people consider to be the same, what they call one letter.

Spanish speakers find English quite hard when it comes to vowels. both languages actually make the same vowel sounds, but in English we consider there to be twelve different phonemes. In Spanish they only recognise five. So English is more than twice as precise in distinguishing vowel sounds. Swedish would be roughly the same as English.

This is the real difficulty. Not so much sounds you never heard. I never heard some Georgian sounds growing up, but I can make them now. Rather it's very difficult to distinguish sounds that your native language says are the same.

An extreme example is languages where c, g and chi (the throat phlegm sound in Greek or Arabic) are all consider one letter. I've actually made a c-sound, a g-sound and then "clear throat"-sound and been told I just said the same thing three times.

Further, are their phonetic diffs in Irish that as a native English speaker I'll find difficulty with? Though I suppose growing up hearing the language in media and school I presume not. I've known English folks living here to have a go at learning some Irish and they found some of it very difficult regarding pronunciation. The soft G for example.

Making the sounds that aren't in English isn't too hard, outside the slender version of r (ir in writing). However what is difficult is the two different versions of every consonant. There is a broad and slender version for all consonants. However, let's say broad L and slender L, an English speakers will just hear L twice. Even more severe Mayo Irish has four L's. An English speaker will just hear L four times, but somebody from Mayo will hear four completely different letters.

Cú Giobach

ViveLaVie wrote: »

While that's true studies show that unless a language is learned before a critical age (I think it's 12) then it is almost impossible to become entirely fluent. Obviously you could have a very very high degree of profiency in the language but you could never speak/think in it with the same complexity and ease as a native speaker. Before 12 the brain soaks up language like a sponge.

Of course, one's native language/s are something special and have a certain depth, a part of your very being you could say, something that is quite unattainable no matter how much you study another language.
Even with people who are fully bi-lingual from early childhood they will usually have more of an emotional attachment to one language, often the one learned "on the mother's breast", for example in a moment of sudden stress they might utter a profanity in one particular language only, or feel one has more strength of emotion whispering "sweet nothings" to a loved one in bed.

Really I'm only talking about attaining a good level of proficiency or fluency.

MysticalRain

An Coilean wrote: »

I am not suggesting that we can make Irish the internal language of Multinational businesses, but it is a well known axiom in business that if you are trying to sell to me, you speak my language.

If a bsuiness want to operate in a Bilingual community, it will have to be able to provide its service in both languages.

For example, I read an interesting case study on the City of Belzano in northern Italy, The city has an almost even split between German speakers and Italian speakers.
Both comunities are able to speak the others language, but if a business tried to provide its services in only one language, it would be seen as excluding the other language community as a result and would suffer for it.

The business world may not want to use Welsh or Khazakstani or Irish, but if you want to sell your service or product to the people who speak those languages, you can be damm well sure that you will deal with them in their language.

I work for one of those companies as well, and I can tell you that what it really boils down to is a question of numbers. Maps or Google translate aside, you are not going see any large scale effort on the part of multi-nationals to do business through Irish, or Welsh for that matter. They are simply not going to open up new departments or call centres just to cater to the needs or 100,000 Irish speakers, or even a half a million if it ever reached that number. It just simply wouldn't pay them to do so, especially when almost all those Irish speakers would have English as a second language anyway.

Even Kazakhstan is a different context as they have a population of 16 million, and many people there have Russian as a second language anyway.

I really wish the Irish school system would focus less on teaching Irish and more on STEM subjects, plus foreign languages (the company I work for has to import foreigners from abroad because the school system here cannot produce the kind of graduates a modern economy like ours requires).

LeeroyJ.

An Coilean wrote: »

Its is manditory for Google to provide their website in a language, because that language is part of the Endangered Languages Project they decided to start?

Again, I am failing to see how they were forced to do this?



Your first post claimed that the demand for Irish was 0.

Now clearly thats not true.

You claimed Google had to provide its services in Irish because Irish was an Official Language in Ireland, thats not true either.
Now you are saying they had to do it because Irish is part of their Endangered Languages Project, again not ture, the google Home Page, and Google Translate were both available in Irish long before they started the Endangered Languages project.
Not to mention that neither the google home page nor google Translate are available in all the languages in their endangered languages project.


Google were not forced to Use Irish, they choose to.

Actually Google is required to provide pages in the official languages of the country to meet quality and cultural standards (the Endangered Languages project is part of this). What you are referring to is that the government actually forces pages to do so, well of course that is not true every URL can decide what standards they would like to meet, heck 99% of .ie website aren't even available in Gaeilge. While you try to find holes in my argumentation for Gaeilge on Google you completely ignore the any financial and economical statements. Of course I know that we offer certain pages in Gaeilge but tell me have you ever seen a Gaeilge Add? Is it available for Android? Youtube? There are no Gaeilige Google products just a few translations (made by algorithm) and a basic service for search and maps (which makes sense since there are many Gaelige names).

But please apply for a bilingual job anywhere on this planet at any major company with Gaeilige and tell me how that worked out. And this is where you get to my point, this won't make Irish economy any better.

LeeroyJ.

MysticalRain wrote: »

I work for one of those companies as well, and I can tell you that what it really boils down to is a question of numbers. Maps or Google translate aside, you are not going see any large scale effort on the part of multi-nationals to do business through Irish, or Welsh for that matter. They are simply not going to open up new departments or call centres just to cater to the needs or 100,000 Irish speakers, or even a half a million if it ever reached that number. It just simply wouldn't pay them to do so, especially when almost all those Irish speakers would have English as a second language anyway.

Even Kazakhstan is a different context as they have a population of 16 million, and many people there have Russian as a second language anyway.

I really wish the Irish school system would focus less on teaching Irish and more on STEM subjects, plus foreign languages (the company I work for has to import foreigners from abroad because the school system here cannot produce the kind of graduates a modern economy like ours requires).

Thank you.

Solair

I think the problem is that people forget about this annoying thing called "reality" when it comes to debates on the Irish language.

The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people in Ireland speak English as their first language, and despite aspirational census filling-in, not very many seem to be able to manage to hold a conversation in Irish.

I think we just have to accept that the situation is that Ireland mostly speaks English and it's one of the world's major languages and we have a huge literary tradition in English and lots of renowned writers, actors, broadcasters etc etc... all of whom work in English.

I don't think we should write-off Irish as a dead language. It's very important from a cultural point of view. However, I think the approach taken thus far i.e. making it compulsory in school and forcing the translation of state-bodies' documents really achieves very little.

We need to look at positive ways of encouraging people to maybe learn it conversationally, explore the literature etc.

I would propose having Irish classes in school as a compulsory subject, but an optional exam and have it very much more focused on spoken language, oral culture, literature (translated if necessary), music etc .. more of a cultural education in Irish language / literature than a formal subject.

If people wanted to take the subject at exam level, that should be available too, but it shouldn't be something that's a compulsory issue that could prevent someone getting into university. Some people can't actually cope with language learning at all, yet are amazingly good at maths, science, business etc etc. and our current system forces people to study English, Irish and a modern foreign language. This isn't ideal if you're a maths whizz who is terrible at languages and I know several people who ended up doing science in the UK because they didn't get into university in Ireland as they'd failed Irish and French yet got really high marks in science subjects and maths.


As for all this focus on forcing state bodies to translate mundane documents. That to me just gives the impression of Irish as being an administrative formality / something associated with mindless bureaucracy and it is a waste of money that could be put into useful Irish language programmes e.g. development of programming for TG4, RnaG, language teaching programmes in school and for adults, theatre, arts, literature etc.

I am actually shocked at some of the comments on this thread about forcing people to learn a language and threatening to strip them of their citizenship or jail them if they don't.
We really don't need this kind of fascist fantasy nonsense in a debate like this!

An Coilean

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

Actually Google is required to provide pages in the official languages of the country to meet quality and cultural standards

Who's quality and Cultural standards? Their own? If so, then again, thats their choice, not manditory.

Lets put it another way, are you telling me that there are no Google products etc available in Finnish? Dose Google have no Finnish speaking Staff to deal with Finnish customers?
Are you saying that it would not be economically viable for Google to operate in Finland due to the Finnish language?

MysticalRain

Finland has over 5 million Finnish speakers. Ireland has less than 100,000 regular Irish speakers, most of whom can speak English anyway. You don't have to be a genius at economics to figure out which market a multi-national will put their money towards.

LeeroyJ.

An Coilean wrote: »

Who's quality and Cultural standards? Their own? If so, then again, thats their choice, not manditory.

Lets put it another way, are you telling me that there are no Google products etc available in Finnish? Dose Google have no Finnish speaking Staff to deal with Finnish customers?
Are you saying that it would not be economically viable for Google to operate in Finland due to the Finnish language?

Actually the the Finnish market is quite lucrative seeing as the have a large BIP. And I don't exactly get this comparison. Roughly 90% of Finland is Finish speaking and don't additionally have English as a native language. You are comparing 5 million to 20.000 (all rough numbers) where as the 20k are still able to speak English. If you where asking for a Romani market then no, why would anyone invest into that even though these people can speak Finish or Swedish?

An Coilean

MysticalRain wrote: »

Finland has over 5 million Finnish speakers. Ireland has less than 100,000 regular Irish speakers, most of whom can speak English anyway. You don't have to be a genius at economics to figure out which market a multi-national will put their money towards.

Yes, thats true now, but the question is what benefit making Irish a Bilingual nation will be. So we are talking about an Ireland where the majority can speak Irish.

I think you will also find that there are very few Finnish who don't have a second Language, be it Sweedish, English or Russian.

Cathyht

It's amazing how kids can learn enough in the Gaeltacht in 3 weeks to do well in the Junior and then the Leaving Cert. That is how my son achieved decent grades in Irish. After going through the whole primary and secondary system with a pretty poor standard. There certainly is a lot in how it is taught.

My second child attends a Gaelscoil and is fluent in Irish, she will be going to the Gaelcolaiste in Sept. I think we will have a lot more acceptance and use of the Irish language now there is an increase the Irish speaking primary and secondary schools. There is a higher interest in Irish culture generally, even Irish dancing, GAA, and Irish musical instruments too, in the Gaelscoil.

MysticalRain

An Coilean wrote: »

Yes, thats true now, but the question is what benefit making Irish a Bilingual nation will be. So we are talking about an Ireland where the majority can speak Irish.

I think you will also find that there are very few Finnish who don't have a second Language, be it Sweedish, English or Russian.

I think even the majority of Irish language advocates have long since given up on the pipe dream of making this country a Bilingual nation. I can't see it being of much genuine economic benefit.

I would rather the time and effort was spent on modernizing the Irish education system to teach subjects that matter in a 21st century economy. I don't have a problem teaching Irish to those who have a genuine love for the language, but all the economic arguments point towards making Irish optional and spending less time teaching it.

Jimmyhologram

Wibbs wrote: »

This learn Mandarin/Cantonese stuff fascinates me, particularly if it comes from any Irish people who really should know better considering our own overconfident "boom". Beyond personal or academic interest why one would choose to learn the language(s) of a country with the highest commodities boom in world history, government hidden debts, artificially controlled currency, bubbling resentment in the sticks and a shrinking workforce on the back of a very strong demographic shift is beyond me. They said similar of Japanese in the 80's. Oh wait...(and they were and are in a much more solid economic condition).

Is language acquisition perhaps overvalued more generally? The payoff from a personal fulfillment perspective is probably very high, but it always struck me that languages are a bit over-sold as far as employment market utility is concerned, regardless of how many people speak it or how the economic regions associated with are faring.

dubhthach

Cathyht wrote: »

It's amazing how kids can learn enough in the Gaeltacht in 3 weeks to do well in the Junior and then the Leaving Cert. That is how my son achieved decent grades in Irish. After going through the whole primary and secondary system with a pretty poor standard. There certainly is a lot in how it is taught.

My second child attends a Gaelscoil and is fluent in Irish, she will be going to the Gaelcolaiste in Sept. I think we will have a lot more acceptance and use of the Irish language now there is an increase the Irish speaking primary and secondary schools. There is a higher interest in Irish culture generally, even Irish dancing, GAA, and Irish musical instruments too, in the Gaelscoil.

There was an article in paper (Times) today about Gaeltacht courses, one interesting stat thrown out was the level of language contact received in three weeks was equivalent to 1 year in the education system! Of course given that the classes were based on active participation and emphasis on spoken language it's not surprising compare to standard "learn by rote"

You daughter will on the completion of Gaelchólaiste have had about 10,000 hours of Irish language contact over the course of her education. This is about 8 times what a student in english medium schools get!

If you were to do a university degree in another language you tend to need about 5,000 hours of language contact first.

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think even the majority of Irish language advocates have long since given up on the pipe dream of making this country a Bilingual nation. I can't see it being of much genuine economic benefit.

I suppose every single thing you do in your life, or spend your money on, is geared towards making more money, or am I wrong and is some of your time, effort and money put into making your home or environment a pleasant, vibrant or just plain comfortable place in which to live?

Cathyht

So now I have two half-Danish children fluent in Irish. Unhappily my Irish is not great, loaded with hangups and sad memories of the Clar Dubh and those sticky white people. A nice rap of the wooden (non metric) ruler if you got the tenses wrong in grammar. Hardly anyone in the class with a word of Irish, but it was compulsory. What was all that about?

gbee

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

Bravo, bravo, bravo. Clapping hands and standing up, whilst at the same time signeling the Gestapo

MysticalRain

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I suppose every single thing you do in your life, or spend your money on, is geared towards making more money, or am I wrong and is some of your time, effort and money put into making your home or environment a pleasant, vibrant or just plain comfortable place in which to live?

I live a pretty spartan existence compared to most people. Suffice to say that my views on economics were shaped by growing up poor during the 1980's, emigration, and years spent on the dole. The fact is we don't really have much going for our country other than it's people. So unless we make the correct choices when it comes to educating our people, then we will remain an economic basket case of a country for the foreseeable future.

I am all for teaching culture, and history etc. But we have to balance that with the stark economic reality (besides, I learned far more about Irish culture and history on my own outside of school hours than I ever did in it).

LeeroyJ.

gbee wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

... Maybe you would like to have a fuehrer aswell?
Sometimes I wonder...

Cathyht

I think someone was just having a laugh.

Cú Giobach

MysticalRain wrote: »

I live a pretty spartan existence compared to most people. Suffice to say that my views on economics were shaped by growing up poor during the 1980's, emigration, and years spent on the dole. The fact is we don't really have much going for our country other than it's people. So unless we make the correct choices when it comes to educating our people, then we will remain an economic basket case of a country for the foreseeable future.

I am all for teaching culture, and history etc. But we have to balance that with the stark economic reality (besides, I learned far more about Irish culture and history on my own outside of school hours than I ever did in it).

Well if you were poor and amongst poor people (as I and anyone over the age of say 30 odd was) and then seen the country during the boom years, you would be well aware that there is more to life and "happiness" than just money and that money can't actually buy that.
A government runs a country like someone running a home, if someone put all their effort into making more money and ignores the things that I mentioned above, then they have what to most is a pretty dull existence, even people with very little money still put effort into making their home pleasant place to live and consequently making life more comfortable.
The current economic state of the country is also not the fault of the Irish language, but of people prioritising the making of money over the Gross National Happiness of this land, don't forget that.

Indeed most of us learn more in our 60/70 years out of school than our 15 odd years in it.

indioblack

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

... Maybe you would like to have a fuehrer aswell?
Sometimes I wonder...

Yes, there's certainly an element of "you will learn it" about this thread.
There have been some common-sense posts on this thread, not really addressed. Perhaps persistance will force a revival of the Irish language - because the advocates of said revival travel into every nook and cranny, approach this subject from a seemingly endless supply of perspectives - there's certainly no end to their crusading spirit.
They reluctantly ackowledge that English is the primary language - whilst attempting to undermine it with increasingly imaginative criticisms - and in the process elevating Irish to an almost spiritual level.
If they ever succeed in their mission, most Irish people will probably feel they just aren't sufficiently mystical to speak their own language.
There are elements of cultural and intellectual elitism in their arguments - you can't properly appreciate the world, and specifically your Irishness ,without the Irish language.
Well, it looks like most Irish people will have to carry on with their limited existances coping with English, (and the English!).
People will learn Irish if they want to or if they have to.
And if they choose, or are forced to, the means exist for them to do so.
Whilst threads like this endlessly debate the minutiae of teaching methods, their relevance and effects, I've yet to read or hear of an initiative that has much chance of working.
People will learn it if they want to or have to.
So far they haven't had to learn it and, as I've said before, whilst they have an attachment to it - they appear to have little desire to learn it.
They just want it to be there. It's not going to die out.