How to revive the Irish language.

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Irish and Science/IT are not mutually exclusive before you try to say they are.

I'm afraid that people like John Herlihy from Google would disagree with you there. They are to the extent than there is a finite number of teaching hours, not to mention teachers who are trained up in those subjects and resources in general. As far as I recall, fluency in Irish is a requirement for the teaching profession in Ireland, which makes it almost impossible to import qualified maths teachers from abroad, or from the ranks of our own immigrant population here.

We currently do not have a computer science subject at second level. If it was to be introduced, time and resources for other subjects would have to be cut back. Top of the list of subjects to be cut in order to make room for a subject like that would be Irish and religion.

conor.hogan.2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I never said that I thought it would repalce English. I would have thought some form of bilingualism a la Scandanavia is the goal. But ut all comes down to what exactly is meant by "revive the Irish language". Makign everything avialable in Irish? Making everyone learn at laast a few words? Getting it popular? Getting it to the point where the majority of poeple can converse in Irish? getting to the point where teh majority of people CHOOSE to converse in Irish?

Sounds obviousy, I know, but you can't achieve your goals until you firtsly clearly define what your goals are.

No. I do not know any one who think widespread bi-lingualism is a "goal" or even likely.

I think the "revive" thing is stupider than the "dead" thing. Irish has been pronounced dead literally 1000's of times over a 400 year timeframe at least. It is alive so how does it need reviving?

As far as education goes the goal is to teach Irish to a majority of students so they can understand Irish which they can. Again to what scale and whether they do is this or that depending on your viewpoint.

MysticalRain wrote: »

I'm afraid that people like John Herlihy from Google would disagree with you there. They are to the extent than there is a finite number of teaching hours, not to mention teachers who are trained up in those subjects and resources in general. As far as I recall, fluency in Irish is a requirement for the teaching profession in Ireland, which makes it almost impossible to import qualified maths teachers from abroad, or from the ranks of our own immigrant population here.

We currently do not have a computer science subject at second level. If it was to be introduced, time and resources for other subjects would have to be cut back. Top of the list of subjects to be cut in order to make room for a subject like that would be Irish and religion.

Do we really need to go down the "I have a reference, but wait I have one too" game again?

We have great maths teachers here in this country. We just need more practical teaching of it perhaps through some programming or some physics. This can be done with the exact same resources as now.

Speaking as someone who did History/Irish as my degree and then converted to CS I think it is very possible. But teaching children earlier always helps. Maths is too dry and all the fun and useful stuff that can be done with maths are done through CS, Physics, Engineering etc. All things we have in schools to varying degrees we just need more crossover imo.

Compulsory Irish is suported by the majority. Getting kids interested in Maths/Science is a much more tangible thing that deserves more discussion than another pointless "lol irish is useless outside of learning irish lol" debate.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So forgive me not trawling back through 23 pages, but what was the goal defined as?

Much like there being no actual "irish language committee" or group there is also no set "goal". It is a language and it is a school subject. The language is getting on fine with some modest growth.

The goal certainly is not getting a majority speaking Irish even bilingually although that would be nice (nice, but a pipe dream)

Who do you think would set this "goal"? The group of us who meet on wednesdays on the peak of Croagh Patrick?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

No. I do not know any one who think widespread bi-lingualism is a "goal" or even likely.

Fair enough.

I think the "revive" thing is stupider than the "dead" thing. Irish has been pronounced dead literally 1000's of times over a 400 year timeframe at least. It is alive so how does it need reviving?

I agree. Certainly, I would ever call it dead. Not sure I would call it alive, but if you are an advocate of it, surely you want to see it advanced? As to the use of the word "revive" - I see your point, but it;s the OP you need to take that up with (mind you, he comes across as a bit of Nazi, if you'll pardon the invoking of Godwin's law). Perhaps "spread" would be a better word?

As far as education goes the goal is to teach Irish to a majority of students so they can understand Irish which they can. Again to what scale and whether they do is this or that depending on your viewpoint.

I would say that this is pointless. Yes, they may be able to, but what is the point if they don't? At some point, useage has to become a factor. You seem to want Irish to merely exist rather than actually thrive and I really don't see the point in merely existing.

conor.hogan.2

I would love to see it used more. Obviously. Much like IT, hip-hop, history and several other things personally along with Politics and a few other things I think deserve more attention.

It is alive. Even Wibbs agrees (no offense to him/her). Enkidu (who seems to be knowledgable in linguistics) seems to agree too. It is organically gaining words through natural usage either through combing words or "copying" (borrowing) from other languages.

I do not see how you could say it is not alive. It's health and/or future is another thing. But it is certainly very very much alive.

"spread" would be nice as I stated above the more the merrier imp. But as I said I think it is spreading. It is on sign posts. It is on Radio. It is on TV. It is all over the internet (twitter, facebook, boards, irish language social media etc) it is in newspapers, it is on sugar packets, it is all over the place. Gaeilscoileanna are increasing etc.

It is not "merely existing" as I have said. New newspapers and radio stations and phones and websites are coming out in Irish all the time. It is not stagnant in any way.

Again this is all in line with the number of people who can and want to use irish. So obviously the usage is not in the 100,000's as I stated but want to re-iterate to drive home that point.

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We have great maths teachers here in this country. We just need more practical teaching of it perhaps through some programming or some physics. This can be done with the exact same resources as now.

Speaking as someone who did History/Irish as my degree and then converted to CS I think it is very possible. But teaching children earlier always helps. Maths is too dry and all the fun and useful stuff that can be done with maths are done through CS, Physics, Engineering etc. All things we have in schools to varying degrees we just need more crossover imo.

Compulsory Irish is suported by the majority. Getting kids interested in Maths/Science is a much more tangible thing that deserves more discussion than another pointless "lol irish is useless outside of learning irish lol" debate.

We do have some great maths teachers in this country. The problem is that we do not have enough of them. Again, that is a documented fact which there was a lot of controversy about last year.

Present company excepted, people from conversion courses do not really have a good rep in the IT industry, unless they happen to have a science, maths or engineering degree. It just dilutes the over all quality of graduates, and lowers standards. But that's probably side tracking the debate even further.

conor.hogan.2

Teachers who teach Irish are not going to migrate to teaching maths if Irish was made non compulsory.

Nor would teachers flock to Ireland to teach it. We solve the lacking by pushing Maths/Science/IT as I said. Chicken and the egg (and lack of money) but sure you have to start if you want to get anywhere.

MysticalRain wrote: »

Present company excepted, people from conversion courses do not really have a good rep in the IT industry, unless they happen to have a science, maths or engineering degree. It just dilutes the over all quality of graduates, and lowers standards. But that's probably side tracking the debate even further.

I disagree. Most people I know have good jobs out of the course I did. IT needs passion (if you want to be good at it) and anyone who does a degree and then goes on to do another course has passion and is likely to be very good at what they specialize in. Of course a passionate BSc student will be as good if not better and if they do an MSc etc they will of course be better ad infinitum.

I have yet to see the "not respected" thing in reality (quite the opposite, surprisingly). Much like the apparent abundance of sorting algorithm white board tests I think it is just a propagated myth that may once have been true somewhere but as far as I can see it is not true here anymore at least.

gbee

I suppose ye all know now anyway, figures released last month show Polish to be the second language of Ireland; as a result, Irish will be replaced in road signs later in the year with Polish and polling documents will now also be published in Polish instead of Irish.

And one does not need five years to lean a language, three months and one should be proficient, if not, the pupil is dump or the academy is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I would love to see it used more. Obviously. Much like IT, hip-hop, history and several other things personally along with Politics and a few other things I think deserve more attention.

It is alive. Even Wibbs agrees (no offense to him/her). Enkidu (who seems to be knowledgable in linguistics) seems to agree too. It is organically gaining words through natural usage either through combing words or "copying" (borrowing) from other languages.

I do not see how you could say it is not alive. It's health and/or future is another thing. But it is certainly very very much alive.

"spread" would be nice as I stated above the more the merrier imp. But as I said I think it is spreading. It is on sign posts. It is on Radio. It is on TV. It is all over the internet (twitter, facebook, boards, irish language social media etc) it is in newspapers, it is on sugar packets, it is all over the place. Gaeilscoileanna are increasing etc.

It is not "merely existing" as I have said. New newspapers and radio stations and phones and websites are coming out in Irish all the time. It is not stagnant in any way.

Again this is all in line with the number of people who can and want to use irish. So obviously the usage is not in the 100,000's as I stated but want to re-iterate to drive home that point.

I didn't say it was not "alive", I said i wasn;t sure!

You can put irish in as many places and use as much media as you like, but the key to advancement of the langauge, surely, is the groundwork and getting people to speak it in everyday life. You said youself - you would love to see it USED more, not just put on roadsigns and so on.

Getting back to the leaving cert, that's not happening. Like a lot of Western education systems and like a lot of subjects there is one thing that is not taugh, and that is passion. Get students passionate, and yout work is done.

But, as I said, that is something that is lackign across the board, not just with regards to Irish.

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Teachers who teach Irish are not going to migrate to teaching maths if Irish was made non compulsory.

Nor would teachers flock to Ireland to teach it. We solve the lacking by pushing Maths/Science/IT as I said. Chicken and the egg (and lack of money) but sure you have to start if you want to get anywhere.

Immigrants flock to this country to do jobs like cleaning toilets (including some I personally know who already have degrees). So I don't see how they wouldn't flock to this country for a well paid public service job.

I disagree. Most people I know have good jobs out of the course I did. IT needs passion and anyone who does a degree and then goes on to do another course has passion and is likely to be very good at what they specialize in.

It's easy to find a job when times are good, and employers have to drop there recruiting standards. The real test comes when the market tightens again.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people who do those kinds of courses lack a passion for technology and only really do it because they couldn't find jobs elsewhere. Employers know that.

conor.hogan.2

gbee wrote: »

I suppose ye all know now anyway, figures released last month show Polish to be the second language of Ireland; as a result, Irish will be replaced in road signs later in the year with Polish and polling documents will now also be published in Polish instead of Irish.

And one does not need five years to lean a language, three months and one should be proficient, if not, the pupil is dump or the academy is.

I am not dump.

MysticalRain wrote: »

Immigrants flock to this country to do jobs like cleaning toilets (including some I personally know who already have degrees). So I don't see how they wouldn't flock to this country for a well paid public service job.

It's easy to find a job when times are good, and employers have to drop there recruiting standards. The real test comes when the market tightens again.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people who do those kinds of courses lack a passion for technology and only really do it because they couldn't find jobs elsewhere.

They did flock. Now not so much.

I found quite the opposite. Everyone was passionate. All had already been to college. A few had kids. Many had jobs. So they went to do the course because they had a passion for it and of course would get a job at the end of the day. My course was 15 months and 120 credits and a lot more intensive than a BSc so it is very equivalent to a BSc and more.

There is no drop in recruiting standards. You have to do technical and HR interviews (I did a test, a hr and a technical interview for my last interview and that was standard). You don't just stroll in.

conor.hogan.2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I didn't say it was not "alive", I said i wasn;t sure!

You can put irish in as many places and use as much media as you like, but the key to advancement of the langauge, surely, is the groundwork and getting people to speak it in everyday life. You said youself - you would love to see it USED more, not just put on roadsigns and so on.

Getting back to the leaving cert, that's not happening. Like a lot of Western education systems and like a lot of subjects there is one thing that is not taugh, and that is passion. Get students passionate, and yout work is done.

But, as I said, that is something that is lackign across the board, not just with regards to Irish.

Ok. Well even being unsure is something I can not believe (obviously that is up to you but I mean I find it shocking). In what way are you not sure?. Take away the fact it is a minority language we all know this. All the things I pointed out point to a very much alive and bustling language.

I also said usage is growing (imo, again you have a reference to say not and I have one to say it is…)

I agree. But students will be a lot more active (perhaps not passionate) if you be more hands on and practical (obviously history and irish and other subjects don't fit here) by showing some practical CS or Physics etc.

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I am not dump.

They did flock. Now not so much.

Non-nationals are still flocking here. It all depends on the profession e.g. it is still happening with IT as employers are struggling to find people to fill roles. If there is a shortage of qualified maths teachers, as the government is telling us, then I do not see how the best and the brightest couldn't migrate here to fill in the gaps. Provided of course that the archaic requirement for fluency in Irish was removed.

I also think that bringing more foreigners into the teaching profession would help encourage some fresher thinking towards education. Ditto for the civil service in general. But that's probably another debate in itself.

conor.hogan.2

MysticalRain wrote: »

Non-nationals are still flocking here. It all depends on the profession e.g. it is still happening with IT as employers are struggling to find people to fill roles. If there is a shortage of qualified maths teachers, as the government is telling us, then I do not see how the best and the brightest couldn't migrate here to fill in the gaps. Provided of course that the archaic requirement for fluency in Irish was removed.

I also think that bringing more foreigners into the teaching profession would help encourage some fresher thinking towards education. Ditto for the civil service in general. But that's probably another debate in itself.

The Irish requirement is basic. Very basic if you are teaching Maths or something non Irish. Plus you have a few years to meet the requirement iirc so non nationals could be working and learning the very very basic irish part time and still have no problem especially if they actually wanted to work in this country.

In regards to IT, yes there is still some coming in true. There are a lot of "our" graduates leaving too.

I agree. The new perspective would help but yes another debate.

I still very much disagree on your "standards drop" comment (see my above points on 3 sometimes four tiered interview processes). But speaking of off topic points...

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The Irish requirement is basic. Very basic if you are teaching Maths or something non Irish. Plus you have a few years to meet the requirement iirc so non nationals could be working and learning the very very basic irish part time and still have no problem especially if they actually wanted to work in this country.

Basic is a relative term. If most of the native population can't even learn to speak the language, then it's a bit ludicrous to as demand that an immigrant to learn Irish on top of already having to learn English to come here.

The logical thing to do would be to remove the requirement for Irish if we are serious about recruiting more teachers into the profession. Of course to expect the government to do the logical thing is probably a tall order. I sometimes wonder if privitizing the education sector and allowing private schools to compete with public ones wouldn't be a bad idea.

conor.hogan.2

The requirement is to pass a basic test. Not to be able to converse naturally. Look up the test it is a basic basic requirement even if the term is relative. It is very doable by anyone who truly wants to work in this country as a teacher.

Perhaps. I do not think everything boils down that simply.

There are plenty of private schools?

(looking at the "supreme being" and the "irish-palestine" threads makes this thread look great and in no way circular or pointless)

MysticalRain

I meant private in the sense of schools that are not subject to as much state control of the curriculum.

conor.hogan.2

MysticalRain wrote: »

I meant private in the sense of schools that are not subject to as much state control of the curriculum.

So you mean completely outside of this state essentially? So NI schools then?

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

So you mean completely outside of this state essentially? So NI schools then?

...and the Catholic Church's control. I believe they even have computers as a subject up there at second level as well.

conor.hogan.2

MysticalRain wrote: »

...and the Catholic Church's control. I believe they even have computers as a subject up there at second level as well.

True, I agree with both those points up to a certain point. (well actually I agree with the outside catholic churches control point 100% unless there is demand for certain schools to be catholic run of course)

But I also love our wide curriculum, so I am torn.

You can have "computers" as a subject in the LC iirc. I had computer classes in primary school and secondary school anyway - I did not do the exam so I could be completely making that up either way it is not common and probably not very good/advanced/useful.

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

True, I agree with both those points up to a certain point. (well actually I agree with the outside catholic churches control point 100% unless there is demand for certain schools to be catholic run of course)

But I also love our wide curriculum, so I am torn.

You can have "computers" as a subject in the LC iirc. I had computer classes in primary school and secondary school anyway - I did not do the exam so I could be completely making that up either way it is not common and probably not very good/advanced/useful.

It needs to be made an official part of the curriculum. That's the problem. I had computer classes as well in first and second year learning stuff like Basic on our school's lab of Commodore 64's. The problem was that it was just done on the personal initiative of a few teachers and students as an extra-curricular activity.

Any school curriculum that does not spend enough time on foreign languages, computers, and maths to a certain extent, is not a wide curriculum in my book. The Irish education system is still stuck in a 1950's mode of training people to become civil service bureaucrats, and for entry into the traditional professions. It's little wonder that we have to import people from abroad to fill the jobs that native Irish are unable or unwilling to do.

conor.hogan.2

MysticalRain wrote: »

It needs to be made an official part of the curriculum. That's the problem. I had computer classes as well in first and second year learning stuff like Basic on our school's lab of Commodore 64's. The problem was that it was just done on the personal initiative of a few teachers and students as an extra-curricular activity.

Any school curriculum that does not spend enough time on foreign languages, computers, and maths to a certain extent is not a wide curriculum in my book.

You are preaching to the converted there. I am actually strongly in favour of Maths being changed to essentially be Math theory but mostly that theory put into practice in CS, Physics etc.

I was taught french, computers and Maths. Not enough and not well enough imo but that is a different story.

Our curriculum is much wider than the UKs (I am talking generally) theirs is a lot more focused which is "better for jobs" but not a better education imo as education is there for educating not jobs*.

(* but hey I was an arts student, so …. but I genuinely believe it and it is not even being used to justify Irish in the sense of this threads discussion )

MysticalRain

I'm very much in favour of educating people for jobs, rather than generalizing the curriculum too much (especially given this country's history of exporting people because they can't get any when they leave school). So my bias is for the way they do things in the UK. I think the real learning comes after you finish school anyway, and I have more than enough time to read up myself on stuff like Irish history and culture.

Of course I turn into a right-wing Thatcherite any time somebody mentions Irish teachers, or teachers unions

conor.hogan.2

MysticalRain wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of educating people for jobs, rather than generalizing the curriculum too much (especially given this country's history of exporting people because they can't get any when they leave school). So my bias is for the way they do things in the UK. I think the real learning comes after you finish school anyway, and I have more than enough time to read up myself on stuff like Irish history and culture.

Of course I turn into a right-wing Thatcherite any time somebody mentions Irish teachers, or teachers unions

I think education is different (but of course not completely separate) to jobs/careers.

I like out current system and think it would be a shame to lose it (I would even prefer to see Irish compulsion dropped before we changed our overall current system to a less general one a-la the UK)

Our emigration is a long long story and will not be curbed much by changing the education system like that. I had a lecturer who explained how we have essentially been continually emigrating (the "irish") for 100's of years and it has had peaks and valleys rather than starting and dropping. I agree with her.

Education is life long, I agree, again in general not just because programming is continually changing and neither because I did arts which essentially just teaches you to go off and read broadly and specifically in cases (and assess of course etc...)

I will not touch that Thatcherite comment with a barge poll (believe me that is several other potential threads worth of discussion)

grenache

lividduck wrote: »

So further reduce the choice of parents that want their children to have a have a proper education, based upon real choices of relavent subjects?
:mad:

They can still study English and other European languages. Some of the most gifted people i know went to Gaelscoileanna. Why you think it's a lesser form of education or is in some way restrictive i do not know.

Interest in History wrote: »

I'd say that you'd have difficulty enforcing your No 1 action. How much force would you be willing to use? How much force have you got?

Enforce it through an Education Act.

Interest in History wrote: »

As for your No 2 action: what result can be expected from teaching only the spoken form of a language when the language is hardly spoken, and then mostly pretty badly?

Erm The result i would expect is Irish language teachers teaching pupils orally, resulting in more people speaking better Irish! It's not spoken badly on TG4 or in the Gaeltacht is it?!

When i was in secondary school, we had 6 hours of Irish a week, exactly 30 minutes of that was oral. And even that was reciting poems, none of it was using everyday words like one would associate with current affairs. It was pathetic when you think about it, i studied Irish for 14 years, and French for 6, yet i retained more French, and that's with a brilliant Irish teacher and very poor French one. That tells you all you need to know about the current system for teaching Irish in our schools.

I've always been of the idea that the government needs to promote the Irish language to its fullest, invest in teaching it properly and make us all bi-lingual, like in Wales. Either that or just let it go the way of Cornish and Manx. This lip-service has to stop. It annoys the hell out of the English only speaking section of our population, and insults the Gaelgeoirs.

Spread

In answer to the OP ............. ban it!
A wise old publican in North Kerry years ago told me that, "if you want to fill the pub - lock the doors".
It's all to do with our healthy disrespect for law and order ........ brought on by 800 years of British imperialism.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Ok. Well even being unsure is something I can not believe (obviously that is up to you but I mean I find it shocking). In what way are you not sure?. Take away the fact it is a minority language we all know this. All the things I pointed out point to a very much alive and bustling language.

I also said usage is growing (imo, again you have a reference to say not and I have one to say it is…)

I agree. But students will be a lot more active (perhaps not passionate) if you be more hands on and practical (obviously history and irish and other subjects don't fit here) by showing some practical CS or Physics etc.

Alive, to me, would be when a decent percentage of conversations I hear would be in Irish. As it is, I go back to ireland fairly regualrly and hang out with mixed groups, but the last occasion I heart Irish spoken, oddly enough, was in a queue at an ATM here in Berlin. As I said, I'm not doubting the number who can, I'm doubting the number who choose to do so.

Maybe it is growing, maybe not. Their seems to be a lot more thusiasm out there, granted, but the people who are enthusiastic about it still seem to be speaking English.

One more point, primary schools should have one/two/three Irish teachers who are not allowed to speak English to the students, especially while the class is in progress.. They teach each class for an hour a day using proper language teaching methods. Even if I am fluent in Vietnamese, I am not allowed to use it while teaching.

I've got to a point now after a year of teaching English that I think it may be my "calling".. I'm so comfortable with being in front of a class now and have no interest in going back to my bank job but I can't be a primary teacher in Ireland due to the Irish requirement.

Cú Giobach

gbee wrote: »

I suppose ye all know now anyway, figures released last month show Polish to be the second language of Ireland; as a result, Irish will be replaced in road signs later in the year with Polish and polling documents will now also be published in Polish instead of Irish.

And when that language dies out of use here (as immigrant languages usually do within a generation or two) and Irish is still spoken we can all sit back and smile at the waste of money, maybe we could put the "old" Polish signs into a "National Museum of Daft Ideas".

Azure_sky

Exclude fluent Irish speakers from water charges or invent a time machine and assassinate Cromwell. Both are as likely to happen.

LordSutch

I would love to know just what percentage of people choose the 'Gaeilge' option on Bank ATMs.