How to revive the Irish language.

Interest in History

Enkidu wrote: »

Again, I know it has nothing to do with the debate, but the spoken Irish of the average person in 1600 was almost the exact same as that spoken today.

Your remark is indeed germane to the debate because it brings up the question of what irish is now being taught in the advancement of the Revival.

A number of authorities (Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidín, John harris, NCCA studies) tell of the growing linguistic poverty in the language acquired and being used, including in the Gaeltacht. Anybody who looks at the 'Sraith Pictiúr' booklet produced as prep for the Leaving Cert Pass Irish exam can see the same for themselves. In some instances, it seems to me, the use of the language is almost on the level of pigeon.

wilkie2006

Interest in History wrote: »

. In some instances, it seems to me, the use of the language is almost on the level of pigeon pidgin.

FYP

Interest in History

wilkie2006 wrote: »

FYP

Thanks for correcting 'pigeon' to 'pidgin'.

For a moment I must have thought that we were away with the birds.

conor.hogan.2

*pidgin and not in any way true if you know what pidgin actually means.

conor.hogan.2

Interest in History wrote: »

Ok. Just illustrating a point. So I'll suspend my argument linking compulsion with political ideology.

But now: you give me your explanation on why 17 and 18 year olds are compelled to do Irish in the Leaving Cert? Why do you say it is not allowed as a subject of choice?

Because they are forced. Why are they forced? Because we had this debate around the foundation of the state. Why is it still compulsory? Because people wish it to be left compulsory.

I do not see the problem. The second anywhere near a majority call for its removal as compulsory then I would back a debate on the issue and if it ever got to a vote or even if the teachers decided to remove it I would back that decision.

They are not compelled to do anything, for the most part anyway.

Interest in History wrote: »

What then is the current objective ?

To teach Irish to students in Ireland. Not very well imo but getting a lot better (I do not think Maths is taught particularly well either.)

LordSutch

wilkie2006 wrote: »

With a user name of GaryIrv93, are you sure that you're not dismissing the language simply because you're doing your Leaving Cert and think it's a bit of a pain in the ar$e at the moment? I think that attitude is every bit as visceral and shallow as the argument* you're dismissing.

I realise that your post is directed at GaryIrv, but from my own perspective: If you trawl through this thread you will find that GaryIrv is but one of many voices who disagree with mandatory Irish lessons in school. Reasons vary from some posters just hating the language, some couldn't be arsed to learn it, some think what's the point, its a dead language! and others defend it, but still disagree with the mandatory nature of its "teaching" and needless to say most of us don't converse in Irish anyway, so why is it mandatory in school in the 1st place?.

wilkie2006 wrote: »

* And I don't think that argument, where people say 'meh', even exists. People just grow up a bit and reflect that the Irish language actually is important to culture and to identity.

Culture & identity? Many people would identify themselves as Irish, and they would see themselves as culturally Irish too, but that doesn't mean that they would automatically speak or wish to speak Irish. learning/speaking Irish is but only one small aspect of being Irish, that people may or may not take to.

NoHarm1994

To be honest I feel that we should put the way Irish is thought in Ireland into the hands of the Gealgoirs in Galway, Donegal, Kerry etc...
Irish colleges like Colaiste Lurgan have the right idea at making Irish acceptable and relatable to young people! I went to a course in Lurgan last summer and it completely changed my opinions of the language. I used to be indifferent towards it but now I am quite passionate about making myself as líofa as possible
Irish colleges like these have been responsible for gathering more support for the language in recent years because they have introduced Irish into modern cultures ie Ceol and social networking!

If anyone is interested in joining the only full Irish 'facebook' so to speak have a look at..

http://abairleat.kontain.com/

The site was set up by people in Colaiste Lurgan and is called Abair Leat!

It is also fairly easy to use and is easy on the eye

FrostyJack

Wibbs wrote: »

No. Though fashionable to the point of meme it's really not. For a multitude of reasons. Just a few might be: It's not an international language, few non Chinese speak it. It's tonal and complex, which makes it harder to pick up. Which "Chinese" do you pick? China's on the up now, but watch this space. I remember Japan being held up as the next big thing and look at it today. Kicking off Japanese classes in schools back then when a similar meme was in place would have been a waste of time(in the biz/financial sense). Irish people are much more likely to emigrate and work in a country with an indo European language.

I said it would be better than Irish not it would be the best language to learn. As for China expansion being a meme, I think you better check the latest international financial information, if China doesn't continue to grow the Worlds economy is down the drain so what language you speak will be unimportant. The World economy was never in bed with Japan as it is with China.

So? We're writing in English and I don't know about you, but I'm not sporting doublet and hose as I'm doing so. It's like the earlier Newgrange argument. It isn't one.

I think you misread what I said, I was being sarcastic. I said they don't follow all old customs just the ones they want, like picking and choosing what it is to be Irish.

conor.hogan.2

NoHarm1994 wrote: »

To be honest I feel that we should put the way Irish is thought in Ireland into the hands of the Gealgoirs in Galway, Donegal, Kerry etc...
Irish colleges like Colaiste Lurgan have the right idea at making Irish acceptable and relatable to young people!

Lurgan, run by teachers and students mostly. Camus and other Gaeltachts are quite similar.

LordSutch wrote: »

so why is it mandatory in school in the 1st place?.

We had a debate on whether it should be compulsory around the founding of the state. Until we see wide support for its removal then logically it should remain compulsory?

Nowhere near a majority are wanting it to be removed as compulsory but the second that happens then a debate should happen and whatever is decided is decided. Even if the teachers decided to re-work the curriculum/layout and remove it then that would be fair in my eyes. Neither of these things is looking like so compulsory Irish stays and rightfully so.

dpe

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We had a debate on whether it should be compulsory around the founding of the state. Until we see wide support for its removal then logically it should remain compulsory?

Bluntly, no. Its education choices by political fiat. The very fact that an education subject should require a vote to change it tells you all you need to know. I can't see any justification for compulsion other than ideology. Its absolutely self-evident that Irish is only "useful" from an education standpoint because the state itself has made it "useful" by making it a requirement for various public sector roles; its a rigged deck. And I'm sorry, but the Soviet example used earlier is very apt, because the thinking behind the flow from subject achievement to advancement within the state apparatus is pretty much identical.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We had a debate on whether it should be compulsory around the founding of the state. Until we see wide support for its removal then logically it should remain compulsory?

The majority in said debate seemed to think there was no practical reason for mandatory Irish. If a student chooses it, then all facilities should be made available to them, yes, but said student should have the choice.

GaryIrv93

wilkie2006 wrote: »

With a user name of GaryIrv93, are you sure that you're not dismissing the language simply because you're doing your Leaving Cert and think it's a bit of a pain in the ar$e at the moment? I think that attitude is every bit as visceral and shallow as the argument* you're dismissing.

* And I don't think that argument, where people say 'meh', even exists. People just grow up a bit and reflect that the Irish language actually is important to culture and to identity.

Let's leave our usernames out of this. No it's not necessarily for that reason; thinking it's a 'pain in the arse'. Personally I'd consider myself decent enough for basics in speaking the language. I'm not dismissing Irish though? What I am dismissing is the compulsion of Irish, and that people should be allowed to choose another subject if they wish to do so, because seriously, what's the reason for it being compulsory for everyone when there are other more useful subjects out there that are of more relevance to students who don't place so much importance on so called ''national identity'' and ''culture + heritage''? I mean, if you want to learn Irish, and speak it etc, then by all means do. Nobody's trying to ban Irish, or take away it's speakers the right to use it, but other students should be given a choice whether or not they want to learn it. Compulsion just backfires - instead of creating more speakers, it's creating resentment and is driving young people away from speaking it. The language would be a lot more appreciated if people were given the choice. if something's continuously forced on you, then you develop resentment towards it, which is especially the case with Irish. Hardly a way to revive a language.

I think ''meh'' does exist, for those who don't give a toss whether it stays compulsory or not. Because whatever decision won't effect them in any way, it really makes no difference to them, does it not?

Galvasean

I'm working on an Irish language short film tomorrow. I'll let you know how it pans out.

conor.hogan.2

dpe wrote: »

Bluntly, no. Its education choices by political fiat. The very fact that an education subject should require a vote to change it tells you all you need to know. I can't see any justification for compulsion other than ideology. Its absolutely self-evident that Irish is only "useful" from an education standpoint because the state itself has made it "useful" by making it a requirement for various public sector roles; its a rigged deck. And I'm sorry, but the Soviet example used earlier is very apt, because the thinking behind the flow from subject achievement to advancement within the state apparatus is pretty much identical.

It does not require a vote to change. But a vote would be a fair way to handle it.

I said personally if teachers decided to remove compulsion I would be fine with it.

But in regards to both. Good luck. Compulsion is staying for the foreseeable future.

Yes this is Ireland. Big clue as to why Irish is required a lot whether a majority use it or not. You must not have been here long?

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm working on an Irish language short film tomorrow. I'll let you know how it pans out.

Don't have unrealistic goals and it will go fine.

Wibbs

FrostyJack wrote: »

As for China expansion being a meme, I think you better check the latest international financial information, if China doesn't continue to grow the Worlds economy is down the drain so what language you speak will be unimportant. The World economy was never in bed with Japan as it is with China.

The worlds economy won't go down the drain. It'll contract alright, but not nearly to the disastrous degree mooted. The money and production will simply go elsewhere, wherever is financially and practically viable. As for China's growth. Like I say, watch this space. They're facing serious issues coming down the line. Numero uno among them a major shift in demographics. The flow of cheap young workers into the workforce that drove their growth is in major decline and will remain so for at least a decade, more like two. Demographics strongly tend to follow economic graphs. The wrong demographics can screw an economy real fast. The aforementioned Japan suffered a smaller version of it, but China's version is monumental. Then you have the building/property and other bubbles that should be familiar to Irish readers. Bubbles the Chinese government are trying hard to deflate with mixed success. Then you have the widening urban/rural divide. A divide that historically never boded well for China. Oh but China is different? Yea this time it's always different, but we were saying that about Ireland 6 years ago. To suggest the obvious was considered naysaying. I know, I did and it was(on this site too).

I think you misread what I said, I was being sarcastic. I said they don't follow all old customs just the ones they want, like picking and choosing what it is to be Irish.

Ah gotcha.

Interest in History

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

*pidgin and not in any way true if you know what pidgin actually means.

Actaully: I find that the OED gives both alternatives ,'pigeon' and 'pidgin', as spelling for the linguistic term. We learn something every day?

As definition it gives: "Pidgin-English - the jargon consisting chiefly of English words, often corrupted in pronunciation, and arranged according the Chinese idiom.... So: for my "kind of pigeon" as applied to the emerging forms of "Irish", let's look at some examples.

Sinn Féin poster: "Seas suas d'Eirinn". This gets its meaning from the reader recognising that it is a near replica of the English phrase "Stand up for Ireland". On page 40 of the 'Sraith Pictiúr' booklet the phrase "Tá an ghrian as scoilteadh na gloch" is frank in its replication of the colloquial English of "The sun is splitting the rocks", from which the Irish derives its meaning. . On the same page "... a girl and two boys.." is translated as "cailín amháin agus beirt bhuachallí" thereby employing English grammar which follows the number two with the plural whereas in Irish it is followed by the singular.

Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidin in 'A New View of the Irish language' page 95, says:
about the teaching of Irish: "The literary texts studied become fewer and fewer and less challanging linguistically as each decade passes with a consequent decline in written standards. The sustainability of any meaningful literacy is now in question." She also rubbishes the Pass Oral exam in the Leaving Cert and her article on this may be found on google/site/failedrevival.

The study of a language at this level is valueless in any educational or cultural terms.

Interest in History

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Don't have unrealistic goals and it will go fine.

Michael Oakshott, the political philosopher, wrote that to attempt something impossible is inherently corrupting. Also that the role of ideology in politics is to sustain a programme which is based on by-passing the realities of the situation in which the politician is acting. Living mentally within the confines of an ideology, and projecting all explanations of the situation through the prism of the ideology, the politician hopes to exclude real-life considerations with all their uncontrollable nuisances. So soon, inevitably, he has to rely on falsehoods in order to protect his position.

He quotes the Revival of Irish as a case in point.

LordSutch

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We had a debate on whether it should be compulsory around the founding of the state.

Interesting, and I would like to know much more about this debate on mandatory Irish in the early 20s (never heard of it before). Of course this is now the 21st century, times have changed, and the authorities have made their point "We are Irish and this is not part of England" this is Ireland, we are a free and independent state and we speak Irish! Nedless to say reality is a diffenent thing as successive decades of school leavers have shown, and we still don't speak Irish. So we are where we are, its now 2012 and Irish is officailly the 1st National language of ther country. Irish is still compulsory from Primary school right through to Leaving Cert, but we still don't speak it en masse, and it looks like we never will :cool:

I suggest its time for a re-run of the 1920s debate you speak of.

Interest in History

LordSutch wrote: »

Interesting, and I would like to know much more about this debate on mandatory Irish in the early 20s ....
I suggest its time for a re-run of the 1920s debate you speak of.

See:

Akenson, Donald Harman: "A Mirror to Kathleen's Face - Education in Independent Ireland 1922 -1960. (McGill-Queen's University Press)

Garvin, Tom: "Preventing the Future (Gill & McMillan - 2006)

Kelly, Adrian: "Compulsory Irish - Language and Education in Ireland 1870s - 1970s (Irish Academic Press)

LordSutch

Many thanks for that, but to save me going to the library this am, in a nutshell, was there a debate at the founding of the State?

IvySlayer

The education system forcing me to learn stupid, complicated poetry put me off the language.

Kinda wish I was fluent in it now though

MysticalRain

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The second there is a hint of wide support for its removal then I am all for having a proper discussion and a vote on it.

The hint is that up to 45% of the public are in favour of removing the compulsary status depending on the opinion poll.

grenache

1. Make all schools Gaelscoileanna.

2. Less poems and written learning and more emphasis on oral Irish in schools.

lividduck

grenache wrote: »

1. Make all schools Gaelscoileanna.

2. Less poems and written learning and more emphasis on oral Irish in schools.

So further reduce the choice of parents that want their children to have a have a proper education, based upon real choices of relavent subjects?
:mad:

Interest in History

NoHarm1994 wrote: »

Thomas Kinsella made it his primary language because he had a passion for it ...I think more people should take a leaf out of his book 'Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Bearla cliste' mar a deirtear!

I know what you mean by this slogan ("Broken Irish is better than clever English") in your context. I saw it used by Dinny McGinley in the Dail debate on the 20-Year Strategy - May 26 2011.

But it is a dangerous slogan. If it were to be taken literally it could only apply to an ignoramus.

Incidentally, look up that Dáil debate and give yourself a laugh from the contributions of Mr. 'Ming' Flanagan, T.D., and Mr. Frank Feighan, T.D.

Interest in History

grenache wrote: »

1. Make all schools Gaelscoileanna.
2. Less poems and written learning and more emphasis on oral Irish in schools.

I'd say that you'd have difficulty enforcing your No 1 action. How much force would you be willing to use? How much force have you got?

By the way - under Education Minister Derrig all (repeat ALL) primary schools were ordered to teach all the curriculum through Irish and a great effort was made to put this into practice. It was called the Modh Díreach', equivalent to immersion teaching as we know it now.

As for your No 2 action: what result can be expected from teaching only the spoken form of a language when the language is hardly spoken, and then mostly pretty badly?

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

Actaully: I find that the OED gives both alternatives ,'pigeon' and 'pidgin', as spelling for the linguistic term. We learn something every day?

As definition it gives: "Pidgin-English - the jargon consisting chiefly of English words, often corrupted in pronunciation, and arranged according the Chinese idiom.... So: for my "kind of pigeon" as applied to the emerging forms of "Irish", let's look at some examples.

Sinn Féin poster: "Seas suas d'Eirinn". This gets its meaning from the reader recognising that it is a near replica of the English phrase "Stand up for Ireland". On page 40 of the 'Sraith Pictiúr' booklet the phrase "Tá an ghrian as scoilteadh na gloch" is frank in its replication of the colloquial English of "The sun is splitting the rocks", from which the Irish derives its meaning. . On the same page "... a girl and two boys.." is translated as "cailín amháin agus beirt bhuachallí" thereby employing English grammar which follows the number two with the plural whereas in Irish it is followed by the singular.

Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidin in 'A New View of the Irish language' page 95, says:
about the teaching of Irish: "The literary texts studied become fewer and fewer and less challanging linguistically as each decade passes with a consequent decline in written standards. The sustainability of any meaningful literacy is now in question." She also rubbishes the Pass Oral exam in the Leaving Cert and her article on this may be found on google/site/failedrevival.

The study of a language at this level is valueless in any educational or cultural terms.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pidgin

A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language. Also called contact language.

a language made up of elements of two or more other languages and used for contacts, esp trading contacts, between the speakers of other languages. Unlike creoles, pidgins do not constitute the mother tongue of any speech community

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/pidgin?q=pidgin

a grammatically simplified form of a language, typically English, Dutch, or Portuguese, some elements of which are taken from local languages, used for communication between people not sharing a common language.
[as modifier] denoting a simplified form of a language, especially as used by a non-native speaker:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pidgin

a simplified speech used for communication between people with different languages

There is a very big difference between pidgin and one language being influenced by another.
Listen to the speech of various people here and you will hear aspects of their English heavily influenced by Irish grammar, would you consider the English they speak as pidgin?

By the way you are actually thinking of a Creole language and while Irish could go that way, it isn't yet.

confusticated

wilkie2006 wrote: »

With a user name of GaryIrv93, are you sure that you're not dismissing the language simply because you're doing your Leaving Cert and think it's a bit of a pain in the ar$e at the moment? I think that attitude is every bit as visceral and shallow as the argument* you're dismissing.

* And I don't think that argument, where people say 'meh', even exists. People just grow up a bit and reflect that the Irish language actually is important to culture and to identity.

I share his opinion, and I'm 22, did Irish for the Leaving, liked the language well enough and would have done it if it had been optional. However, I spoke French 10 times better than Irish by the time I did my Leaving having done it for 6 years as opposed to 14.

There were points earlier about the number of Irish speakers growing - I'd be interested to know if the proportion of Irish speakers is growing, because the population is also growing according to the last census iirc.

Fbjm

I like not having the language spoken by everyone, it comes in useful for talking about others behind their backs without them knowing :pac:

Enkidu

FoxT wrote: »

If that is true, then doesn't it demonstrate that the language is dead?

No, Wibbs has already given reasons. For example Icelandic hasn't really changed for one thousand years and it is still completely alive. English has changed less than the average language.