Andy Lee v Julio Cesar Chavez Jnr in El Paso, June 16

Bobby Baccala

Draw

Well if he's found to have been using steroids (which i highly doubt he has) I'll be the first person to hold my hands up and say i was wrong, until then, that's a very unfair assumption to make about Chavez jnr.

celticcrash

Chavez points win

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Well if he's found to have been using steroids (which i highly doubt he has) I'll be the first person to hold my hands up and say i was wrong, until then, that's a very unfair assumption to make about Chavez jnr.

Ok Paddy it was an unfair assumption. I jumped the gun a bit. Not giving a urine test needs to be answered. Until then Chavaz jr is given the benifit of the doubt.

As for people on here not showing respect to Andy Lee.
He got to fight a world champion and people still bitch about him.
I would love to see how long they would last in the ring with him.

clubwelly

Lads think you're being overly harsh on Andy. He was fighting a guy who much bigger than him and it was def a step up in class. He went to the other mans back garden and lost to prob the number 2 man in the division

There's def still life after Chavez jnr for Andy and he can still become a world champ

walshb

Draw

clubwelly wrote: »

Lads think you're being overly harsh on Andy. He was fighting a guy who much bigger than him and it was def a step up in class. He went to the other mans back garden and lost to prob the number 2 man in the division

There's def still life after Chavez jnr for Andy and he can still become a world champ

Did I miss something? Both men are MW fighters. Lee is a big MW, so is Chavez. I don't see how one man was "much bigger" than the other. Not weight wise or size/frame wise.

As for Lee becoming a champ. Well, it will have to be a level like Vera or slightly better. He is not beating any quality MW. Chavez is a good MW, nothing special. That is not being harsh. It's telling it as it is.

cowzerp

Draw

Lads stop discussing steroids-that's the best way to get bans around here-only time to discuss if is its news or a fighter has been found guilty. No speculation

Big Ears

Chavez points win

walshb wrote: »

Did I miss something? Both men are MW fighters. Lee is a big MW, so is Chavez. I don't see how one man was "much bigger" than the other. Not weight wise or size/frame wise.

As for Lee becoming a champ. Well, it will have to be a level like Vera or slightly better. He is not beating any quality MW. Chavez is a good MW, nothing special. Thast is not being harsh. It's telling it as it is.

Chavez weighs in around 180 lbs on fight night, it is likely Lee would only weigh somewhere in the region of 170 lbs. Chavez has tested positive for diuretics in the past to make weight, and this craic with him missing a drugs test (Rubio fight) and not providing a sample at the time when asked (this fight), leads people to believe he's still using them. I would not be surprised if he couldn't get down to Middleweight without the use of diuretics, sure he's not as tall as Lee, but he's definitely the bigger man imo.

colly10

Missed the fight as I'm away, if Chavez missed the sample that would be the second fight in a row that he missed it and there were questions last time. He has also previously tested positive for a diareutic. That could result in some people no longer giving him the benefit of the doubt.

walshb

Draw

Big Ears wrote: »

Chavez weighs in around 180 lbs on fight night, it is likely Lee would only weigh somewhere in the region of 170 lbs. Chavez has tested positive for diuretics in the past to make weight, and this craic with him missing a drugs test (Rubio fight) and not providing a sample at the time when asked (this fight), leads people to believe he's still using them. I would not be surprised if he couldn't get down to Middleweight without the use of diuretics, sure he's not as tall as Lee, but he's definitely the bigger man imo.

Well, does anyone know fight night weights? Regardless, both make MW. End of. If one decides to gorge and stuff himself to gain 12-20 lbs of food and liquid weight, and the other eats fairly normally and drinks fairly normally, gaining less weight, that will explain the difference in weights on fight night.

walshb

Draw

Big Ears wrote: »

Chavez weighs in around 180 lbs on fight night, it is likely Lee would only weigh somewhere in the region of 170 lbs. Chavez has tested positive for diuretics in the past to make weight, and this craic with him missing a drugs test (Rubio fight) and not providing a sample at the time when asked (this fight), leads people to believe he's still using them. I would not be surprised if he couldn't get down to Middleweight without the use of diuretics, sure he's not as tall as Lee, but he's definitely the bigger man imo.

Seeing as a mod is discussing drugs here, then what you say I agree with fully as regards: "leads people to believe he's still using them."

Big Ears

Chavez points win

walshb wrote: »

Seeing as a mod is discussing drugs here, then what you say I agree with fully as regards: "leads people to believe he's still using them."

Not trying to go against what my fellow mod has put there. I hadn't seen Cowzerp's post at the time, but seeing as Chavez jnr has tested positive for diuretics before and has not been drug tested in a least one of his fights since that positive test, it's something worth thinking about (specifically to diuretics, not any other illegal substances), but I don't really want to dwell on it either.
Just thought it was a valid part of a discussion on making weight.

duagre

Lee stoppage win

Steroids and other performance enhancing drugs (HGH, Blood Doping) are a huge issue in Boxing at the moment, as they are in all sports. Banning discussion on them is a load of old cobblers.

If somebody twice misses drugs tests that warrants speculation. Particularly if the drug tests are in states with notoriously lax testing procedure to begin with, and the person in question has been suspended for banned substances previously. People are entitled to ask questions.

Kev M

Lee stoppage win

I had Lee winning by decision, but Chavez made it look easy.
Lee's movement was poor, and he just allowed Chavez fight his fight on the inside which Lee obviously couldn't deal with. Maybe the body shots completely took the wind out of him.
Martinez is too good for either of these guys, by a mile!

Syferus

Lee stoppage win

I was so disappointed by Andy's performance.

It's one thing to lose a fight at your best, simply being beat by a superior boxer, but it's another when your performance showed almost zero positional awareness and allowing yourself to be goaded by an inside fighter.

Andy didn't use his jab enough, and indeed when he did in the first few rounds Chavez looked decidedly average. And to disagree with what's been said, he was clearly able to hurt Chavez on the few occasions he actually got on the front foot. Chavez's comments - and actions in the ring - were more about showboating and goading than anything else.

He let Chavez bully him into corners very easily and backed himself into them many times as well. When you let someone who wants to get you inside get you caught so many times it's game over, there really wasn't much more complexity to the fight than that.

Good work by Chavez but Andy really should have been able to put in a better performance - it was one of his weakest displays I've ever seen - and it certainly wasn't even mostly down to Chavez being 'just that good'.

I can't help but laugh at people who are insecure enough in their own importance that they feel the need to dramatically proclaim fighters 'finished' after a loss. He's still young enough to mount another tilt for a world title. Questioning his heart is a bit rich honestly, Manny Stewart doesn't train disinterested fighters, let alone take them under his wing to the degree he did with Andy. He has more going for him than most every boxer at his weight.

Dublin Red Devil

Draw

Big Ears wrote: »

Surprised you didn't mention Paul McCloskey. Macklin isn't finished imo, I think we'll see him competing at the top end again, not sure if he'll manage to come out on top against them but he's in or around the level needed to compete for World titles at that weight. Lee might be able to gain a version of a World title, but not beat any of the top lads, I still see him beating the likes of Barker and Murray.

Don't forget one fighter from the generation before this lot, Brian Magee. He'll be having at least one more fairly high profile fight before he's done.

Also of the next generation, Carl Frampton looks set to jump up to European level and fringe World level very soon.

I'm just saying that for the last few years there was a bit of revelution in Irish Boxing. Before Dunne there was a long period where the public didn't really give a sh1t about boxing because there was no fighter that captured the hearts an minds of the irish people.

Along with Dunne you had 3 middle weights come along together
Duddy was finished by Chavez Jr (and a little by his own head aswell) Macklin has lost 2 world title fights in the past 12 months.
Lee just beaten at the weekend.

I like all of them and I think they were all very good fighters, Worthy of a spot in anyone's top 10 middleweights but just didn't have what it takes to beat the very best.

There is a gulf in class between the very best and the rest of the top 10.
Our lads were never able to reach that last step and become champion

JonathanAnon

Andy talking about the fight on Newstalk right now.

Wild_Dogger

Draw

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Andy talking about the fight on Newstalk right now.

Just caught/missed the end of it .........

what's they say ?

I'd like to see him face Kirkland some time in the future.

magma69

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

Just caught/missed the end of it .........

what's they say ?

I'd like to see him face Kirkland some time in the future.

Jesus, I dunno about that. Kirkland has a dodgy chin and Lee could knock him out but Lee has trouble with aggressive fighters and Kirkland is a beast when he gets going. If Lee doesn't stop him in the first three rounds, he's getting stopped himself.

Wild_Dogger

Draw

magma69 wrote: »

Jesus, I dunno about that. Kirkland has a dodgy chin and Lee could knock him out but Lee has trouble with aggressive fighters and Kirkland is a beast when he gets going. If Lee doesn't stop him in the first three rounds, he's getting stopped himself.

So sorry ....... I meant I would like to see Chavez face Kirkland some time in the future. I'd never wish that on Andy Lee

walshb

Draw

magma69 wrote: »

Jesus, I dunno about that. Kirkland has a dodgy chin and Lee could knock him out but Lee has trouble with aggressive fighters and Kirkland is a beast when he gets going. If Lee doesn't stop him in the first three rounds, he's getting stopped himself.

Lee is knocking nobody of any quality out. He just isn't up to it. What power?

magma69

walshb wrote: »

Lee is knocking nobody of any quality out. He just isn't up to it. What power?

He punches harder than Ishida, who blew Kirkland out in one round.

You love to take posts out of context and suit it so your reply can be negative. I've noticed that about you. I never said Andy Lee is a monster puncher, I said he can knock out Kirkland. You don't have to be Wladimir Klitschko to do that.

walshb

Draw

magma69 wrote: »

He punches harder than Ishida, who blew Kirkland out in one round.

You love to take posts out of context and suit it so your reply can be negative. I've noticed that about you. I never said Andy Lee is a monster puncher, I said he can knock out Kirkland. You don't have to be Wladimir Klitschko to do that.

Out of context? I made a statement, and I asked a question. What power? So you have noticed negativity in my posts. They must be the negative posts you read, yes? I do post an awful lot here. With a bit of time I am sure you may stumble across some positivity.

Lee's power seems to be mentioned a fair bit. I'd like to know where it is, and what has it done to any decent and quality fighter? And how is it that you seem to know that he punches harder than Ishida? Based on what?

Edit: I realise you never specifically mentioned Lee's power, but you did allude to it in your post.

magma69

walshb wrote: »

Out of context? I made a statement, and I asked a question. What power?

You made a statement in response to my post. It was directed at my post but it had no relevance. It was just an excuse for you to have a dig at Lee.

If it was just a general thought, why quote me?

walshb

Draw

magma69 wrote: »

You made a statement in response to my post. It was directed at my post but it had no relevance. It was just an excuse for you to have a dig at Lee.

If it was just a general thought, why quote me?

If saying Lee just isn't up to it is having a dig at him, so be it!

duagre

Lee stoppage win

Kirkland is one of the biggest frauds in the whole business. The only person he beat of note was Angulo and that was because Angulo fought like an idiot that night.

Dusty87

walshb wrote: »

If saying Lee just isn't up to it is having a dig at him, so be it!

In fairness your right. I think i was the only one who thought Lee was average from the start. Played up by RTE too. Fair play to him n all, but he will never be anythin special. Also no, he has no power, or tank, so walshb is right.

JonathanAnon

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

Just caught/missed the end of it .........
I'd like to see him face Kirkland some time in the future.

He made some pretty serious claims.. Alluded to the fact that they made the ring smaller and the canvas softer to make it more difficult for him to move.. Said that his couch had witness Chavez handing over the urine sample and said that it looked dodgy, that he was not as tightly marshalled as he himself was, and that his team looked shifty as the sample was handed over... (all of this was witnessed by his couch, who told him after the fight).. Well worth a listen when it's on the podcast.

walshb

Draw

JonathanAnon wrote: »

He made some pretty serious claims.. Alluded to the fact that they made the ring smaller and the canvas softer to make it more difficult for him to move.. Said that his couch had witness Chavez handing over the urine sample and said that it looked dodgy, that he was not as tightly marshalled as he himself was, and that his team looked shifty as the sample was handed over... (all of this was witnessed by his couch, who told him after the fight).. Well worth a listen when it's on the podcast.

Ring too small, too soft, urine sample this and that. Facts are that after three rds of decent paced action and activity Andy was tiring, and the body shots hadn't even really begun!

Syferus

Lee stoppage win

I commented that the ring looked small while I was watching it. Everything that Lee said rings very true.

mark renton

Chavez points win

:rolleyes: Pun?

Syferus

Lee stoppage win

Of course