A Question for those who paid the Household Charge

RATM

I was just talking to my pensioner aged mother yesterday and had asked her if she paid the household charge. She said she hadn't and also that she didn't intend to, regardless of fines or penalties. She is a completely law abiding citizen (up until now at least), I remember laughing at how mortified she was at once getting caught speeding for doing 56kph in a 50kph zone. Since then she always has one eye on the speedmeter so it doesn't happen again !

Anyway I asked her why she didn't pay, given that she is not one to go around flouting the law, etc. She said it is not the €100 but that she is worried sick about what is coming down the line. Her situation is probably not unlike that of a lot of pensioners in the country- she lives in a large five bedroom house and now all the kids have moved on. It is home to her (and us) so there is no question of her ever downsizing to a 2 bed apartment or something similar.

Her main worry is how they are going to calculate the property tax next year and she is fearful of it being done on square footage of the house and the surrounding gardens, which total about 3/4 of an acre.

It got me thinking that tons of other people are in a very similar situation as my mother. We already have heard a figure of circa €600 mentioned as next years household charge. Ultimately the household charge is going to be somewhere in the region of €1k-€2k per household which would be in line with what citizens in other countries pay, I know a 3 bed semi in Islington, London comes in at £1,300.

My mothers fear is that becuase the house and gardens are on the large side she is going to get hit at the upper end of the €2k range, a sum of money that she just doesn't have lying about the place.

So my questions is specifically to people who have paid the €100 Household Charge. Are you ready and willing to pay a charge (be it next year or thereafter) of €1k-€2k per year ? Or are we going to see even more mass disobedience when those who have paid €100 begin to realise that it is only a small sum compared to what they are expected to pay annually ?

Interested to hear peoples thoughts please.

NIMAN

Your whole argument is based on what you think the household charge will rise to, but its all just guessing.

How do you think that my house in rural Donegal will have the same household tax as a house in central London? Thats based on what exactly?

Nearly every country has some sort of household tax. My own widowed pensioner mother in NI lives in a 4 bed semi and pays £1000 per year.

We are getting off light at €100, believe me.

Zamboni

It's all Brian Lenihan's fault and he got off lightly.

daltonmd

I think you're presuming that those who haven't paid won't be chased from it - avoiding it for this reason is not going to make the charge go away, unfortunately.

wyndham

Of course it's a concern that it will be measured using those methods for people in your mother's situation, but there is no point in burying one's head in the sand. Better to pay the charge and cross any other bridge when the time comes.

It is not optional and won't go away because you don't pay it, it will only get worse.


If it does become unaffordable for some, I assume will have to be a methodology such as means testing/waiver/% reduction, etc put in place.

Victor

RATM wrote: »

Her situation is probably not unlike that of a lot of pensioners in the country- she lives in a large five bedroom house and now all the kids have moved on. It is home to her (and us) so there is no question of her ever downsizing to a 2 bed apartment or something similar.

Whatever about property taxes, is bearing the cost and effort of maintaining such a property reasonable?

She could easily take a lodger (or four) and pay the tax.

Hijpo

NIMAN wrote: »

We are getting off light at €100, believe me.

Its only €100 until you register, when everyone is registerd it goes up because they then have the database that they need to enforce it properly. They didnt think paddy had the smarts to figure that one out, unfortunatly the citizens of this country have been scammed and duped once to many times by political parties before and are starting to think before leaping. Nobody trusts the government anymore, people can argue all they want about how FG isnt like that unfortunatly for them its like being biten by a dog, after it happens your warey about every dog you come across.

NIMAN

Hijpo wrote: »

Its only €100 until you register, when everyone is registerd it goes up because they then have the database that they need to enforce it properly. They didnt think paddy had the smarts to figure that one out, unfortunatly the citizens of this country have been scammed and duped once to many times by political parties before and are starting to think before leaping. Nobody trusts the government anymore, people can argue all they want about how FG isnt like that unfortunatly for them its like being biten by a dog, after it happens your warey about every dog you come across.

I have absolutely no doubt that the HC will increase from €100. Never gonna stay that low.

But I do hope that they are sensible with the rises in future. I think they did a bit of kite flying recently and the figures had a 3 bed semi around he €150 - €200 mark. I honestly think that isn't bad tbh. But with the state of the finances, who really knows where it'll end up?

As for those thinking they are being smart avoiding it, I personally wouldn't be so smug about it. They will get it off you somehow. First off, it is attached to your property and so are the late fees, so if you ignore it now and try to sell in 15yrs time, you'll owe a pretty penny, and it will come out of your house sale.

If you die and leave your house to family, it will come out of your estate.

I also would fear that they will start deducting it from state benefits such as child allowance, dole etc. Thats an extreme measure, but these are extreme times.

Also heard something on the radio today that made me think that it will start people falling out with each other. It was always said that the HC would be for your local council for local use. Many didn't believe this. I heard that there is a possibility that the councils with the highest rate of non-payment may see their budgets for things like arts, entertainment, public parks etc cut. If that happens then you can be sure that those that paid will soon start to turn on those that didn't.

And finally, it is now a law, just like the TV licence. Why is there not the same social disobedience to that?

Cuddlesworth

Property tax's help to keep prices steady and low. They stop large property's being needlessly left empty or half filled by attaching a significant running cost to it. They are also relatively stable rather than the alternative sales tax we were relying on for years.

I think its funny that your mothers situation is a perfect example of why we need to bring in these taxes. But you seem to have difficulty seeing that.

RATM

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about property taxes, is bearing the cost and effort of maintaining such a property reasonable?

She could easily take a lodger (or four) and pay the tax.

Not really, the house is quite rural with no public transport links. Also she is an elderly woman and is way beyond the stage of living with strangers, she just wants to live her days out in peace which is more than understandable.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Property tax's help to keep prices steady and low. They stop large property's being needlessly left empty or half filled by attaching a significant running cost to it. They are also relatively stable rather than the alternative sales tax we were relying on for years.

I think its funny that your mothers situation is a perfect example of why we need to bring in these taxes. But you seem to have difficulty seeing that.

I'm not sure how taxing a property keeps prices low, surely it makes them more expensive ? Eg let say the property tax is €1,500 a year for a 3 bed semi. Over a 40 year life span an owner will spend €60k on property taxes, thus making the cost of ownership more expensive. Sorry if I am missing something here ?

Your last comment I'm not really getting. The property isn't left empty, she lives there all the time. Are you suggesting that pensioners should be penalised for living in the type of house they choose to raise their family in and then wanting to remain there as it is their home ? If so there is an element of goalposts been moved here because the household charge didn't exist when she chose a 5 bed house but now it does...

Just to clarify Im not against the idea of a property tax per se but when I see my elderly mother as worried as she is it worries me, especially given the total lack of information about what is coming down the line.

Snakeblood

RATM wrote: »

I'm not sure how taxing a property keeps prices low, surely it makes them more expensive ? Eg let say the property tax is €1,500 a year for a 3 bed semi. Over a 40 year life span an owner will spend €60k on property taxes, thus making the cost of ownership more expensive. Sorry if I am missing something here ?

It keeps prices low because if someone has to fork out an extra 60k it's a disincentive to pay over the odds when buying a house. One factors it into the cost when thinking about buying vs. renting.

AngeGal

Zamboni wrote: »

It's all Brian Lenihan's fault and he got off lightly.

No problem with the first part of your post but the second part is frankly disgusting, grow up.

Victor

RATM wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about property taxes, is bearing the cost and effort of maintaining such a property reasonable?
She could easily take a lodger (or four) and pay the tax.

Not really, the house is quite rural with no public transport links. Also she is an elderly woman and is way beyond the stage of living with strangers, she just wants to live her days out in peace which is more than understandable.

Which part of my post are you replying to? Surely it is unreasonable to have an elderly woman living in a quite rural area with no public transport links. What will she do for shopping, socialising, doctor, etc.? It means being car dependent at an age when it may be completely inappropriate.

I'm not sure how taxing a property keeps prices low, surely it makes them more expensive ? Eg let say the property tax is €1,500 a year for a 3 bed semi. Over a 40 year life span an owner will spend €60k on property taxes, thus making the cost of ownership more expensive. Sorry if I am missing something here ?

It keeps the cost of property down, not the total cost of housing, which should stay roughly the same. If you put a 20% tax on something, but demand stays much the same, nett prices should drop by about 20% to compensate.

Your last comment I'm not really getting. The property isn't left empty, she lives there all the time.

By herself.

Are you suggesting that pensioners should be penalised for living in the type of house they choose to raise their family in and then wanting to remain there as it is their home ?

Are you suggesting that families should be priced out of the market because of 'empty nesters' retaining large properties well beyond their needs.

If so there is an element of goalposts been moved here because the household charge didn't exist when she chose a 5 bed house but now it does...

But all the goal posts have shifted. the state pension now is much better than the state pension when she bought the house.

Just to clarify Im not against the idea of a property tax per se but when I see my elderly mother as worried as she is it worries me,

Your concern is perhaps understandable. Her worry is just worry.

especially given the total lack of information about what is coming down the line.

There will be a property tax that will likely be based on property value (not necessarily size). The exact formula, charge and other details are to be decided.

dudara

Hijpo wrote: »

Its only €100 until you register, when everyone is registerd it goes up because they then have the database that they need to enforce it properly. They didnt think paddy had the smarts to figure that one out, unfortunatly the citizens of this country have been scammed and duped once to many times by political parties before and are starting to think before leaping. Nobody trusts the government anymore, people can argue all they want about how FG isnt like that unfortunatly for them its like being biten by a dog, after it happens your warey about every dog you come across.

To me, this is an example of the mé-féin attitude that is partially to blame for the ruined economy of this country. Non-payers of the HC need to find some social responsibility and realise that paying taxes is part of the road to recovery. It's part of being a socially aware and responsible citizen.

You may not like paying taxes, but surely you have the brains to see the benefits in paying taxes.

Victor

Zamboni wrote: »

It's all Brian Lenihan's fault and he got off lightly.

You might moderate your statements and stick to the topic at hand.

Sparky_Larks

I paid the tax. 2 reasons
1) It is the law - If you don;t like the law then abide by it while campaigning to change it
2) It believe that we need a property tax

I think 100 is too low. I am willing for it to go up to more.

If we do not tax property( I believe in site value tax by the way) we have to tax something else.

Could put 1% on vat though that will drive down spending resulting in job losses in the retail sector.

Can increase income tax, but that will affect Jobs.

The question who should contribute more,
a low income pensioner, in central Dublin in a 4- bedroom house worth 650,000 close to bus links and rail links all subsidised by public transport,

or a moderately high earner( say 75,000 joint income), with 4 children living in Kildare , who cannot afford a house that is near to schools, shops buses etc, commuting 2 hours to work every day?

Every report at the moment says that it is the 55 to 75 year old age group ho have the largest disposable income, there for those who can pay most should pay most.

Zamboni

Victor wrote: »

You might moderate your statements and stick to the topic at hand.

No bother but I think it is the same topic.
It was brought in to fill the abyss that Brian Lenihan created when he incompetently guaranteed the banks debts.
The councils had money for all the services that are given as a reason for the household charge payments but they became some of the more ridiculous property developers themselves and lost a fortune.
It is just higer taxation under the guise of some noble contribution towards facilities.
And as a higher taxation it should be paid by those who can in income tax not by taxing people who have assets. Those assets were bought with taxed money. Leave them be.
Who are any of us to say whether RATM's mother should not live in a massive house?
I am sure her house was bought with nett income after taxation and now we wish to double charge her for the privilege. Well I say it is wrong.
Fine Gael can raise income taxes in December to cover the mess Brian Lenihan left this country in if they want but don't con us with crap about paying for local services by square metre owned rather than usage.

daltonmd

I think what will happen in cases like the OP's mother is that they will put a lien on the property. In the event of her death whatever tax is owed will come from her estate. Propbably not the solution anyone would wish for, but it may put your mothers fears at bay.

I think elderly people like the OPs mother are being scared half to death by things that are going on in this country.

sellerbarry

One question. If they don't have a database of homeowners, then how do they know who to send the fines to?

Treanor2011

It like the tv licence if you don't register they don't know who you are.if you reg and don't pay then you get fines . They don't have a database for this tax that's why they are looking at Irish company's esb etc to try to find a loophole to breaking the law and sharing personal data .if they do figure it out they will probably sell your info to marketing company's in other words it will make the data protection act void .

L1011

Treanor2011 wrote: »

It like the tv licence if you don't register they don't know who you are.if you reg and don't pay then you get fines . They don't have a database for this tax that's why they are looking at Irish company's esb etc to try to find a loophole to breaking the law and sharing personal data .if they do figure it out they will probably sell your info to marketing company's in other words it will make the data protection act void .

Paranoid much?

The TV licence DB is compiled by An Post from postal records. Which is why people who "don't register" first get "the householder" and later personalised demands. The reason they don't issue fines is that they need proof there is a TV there - whereas there is no proof required to prove that a household exists.

They're not "looking to try and find a loophole", they already have the exemption. They also have the Land Registry which is a far more detailed and accurate list of who owns what than anything else.

It won't make the Data Protection Act void, nor are the state going to sell information to marketing firms.

Treanor2011

MYOB wrote: »

Treanor2011 wrote: »

It like the tv licence if you don't register they don't know who you are.if you reg and don't pay then you get fines . They don't have a database for this tax that's why they are looking at Irish company's esb etc to try to find a loophole to breaking the law and sharing personal data .if they do figure it out they will probably sell your info to marketing company's in other words it will make the data protection act void .

Paranoid much?

The TV licence DB is compiled by An Post from postal records. Which is why people who "don't register" first get "the householder" and later personalised demands. The reason they don't issue fines is that they need proof there is a TV there - whereas there is no proof required to prove that a household exists.

They're not "looking to try and find a loophole", they already have the exemption. They also have the Land Registry which is a far more detailed and accurate list of who owns what than anything else.

It won't make the Data Protection Act void, nor are the state going to sell information to marketing firms.

Why are they trying to find a way to access databases such as esb s one then .if they already have this info why are they using scare tactics to get people to pay .does this mean people no longer have to donate money to the council when building a house I say donate loosely . Why is a tax expected from people who pay for all services privately them selfs .im asking you since you seem to have all the answers .

blowtorch

NIMAN wrote: »

..... First off, it is attached to your property and so are the late fees, so if you ignore it now and try to sell in 15yrs time, you'll owe a pretty penny, and it will come out of your house sale...........

I'd tend to go with my belief that by not registering, I believe I have not succumed to being liable for any future charges. Had I registered, it would have been telling them that I agreed with any charges. That is the reason why they wanted people themselves to Register - I mean, they have enough information on the citizens of this country, that they could have send out a questionnaire to everyone of house-bearing age asking whether they owned their home, or from whom it was rented.

I also note that Phil Hogan has not declared for 2011, (Ethics in Publin Office) that he has an interest in an apartment in Portugal. So where does that leave him as regards registering for anything?. Does he also own an apartment on Haddingdon Road, Dublin, and if so, why is that not registered as an interest as well?

Hijpo

NIMAN wrote: »

And finally, it is now a law, just like the TV licence. Why is there not the same social disobedience to that?

I think the fact that people dont mind paying the TV Licence, USC etc is evidence that people will pay for services they see as genuine and fair and that they arnt just out to make things difficult for government and be disobedient law breakers. The people have a strong feeling against this tax as it is lied about constantly and threats make people even more reluctant.

quinnie123ie

Are the councils going to take over the maintenance on apartment complexes all over Ireland or do those poor suckers have to now pay 2 service charges? cant wait to see the back of FG.

I am not an apartment owner by the way, thank god!

flutered

dudara wrote: »

To me, this is an example of the mé-féin attitude that is partially to blame for the ruined economy of this country. Non-payers of the HC need to find some social responsibility and realise that paying taxes is part of the road to recovery. It's part of being a socially aware and responsible citizen.

You may not like paying taxes, but surely you have the brains to see the benefits in paying taxes.

i paid tax at over 60%, i worked seven days each week, i did not drink, yet i got into trouble with my morgage, i have paid taxes since i was 14, yes i told lies to get a job, i am now in the autumn of my years, i am sick of being shafted to some johney come latelys advantage, enough is enough, the only advantage that i have is there is no title to my house, so in the event of my death it will just go to a family member, no lawyers or goverment agency to collect anything, btw it will not be part of my will.

Lantus

dudara wrote: »

To me, this is an example of the mé-féin attitude that is partially to blame for the ruined economy of this country. Non-payers of the HC need to find some social responsibility and realise that paying taxes is part of the road to recovery. It's part of being a socially aware and responsible citizen.

You may not like paying taxes, but surely you have the brains to see the benefits in paying taxes.

Where is the social responsibility when a government saddles it's population for the massive and crippling debts of a banking sector (and construction secor) that was achieved through greed and stupidity.

To just shift the 'responsibility' onto ordinary people and guilt them into thinking it is now their fault and problem to solve is immoral and wrong. It also totally negates the real criminals of any blame who really perpetrated this mess.

FG and the current 'leader' (I use that term loosley as people who cannot speak a sentence without contunual errms and arrs arn't really leader material) are a joke. Enda has achieved his position through 'years of service' and a patient attitude not because he's right for the job.

His views are basically the same as FF and the rest as he learned his trade over the past several decades along side peers from every party through an era of corruption and bribes and thre status quo. The believe that TD's deserve special treatment and should be hugley rewarded financially is something he believes in as much as Bertie. He's just not as stupid to say it out loud.

He doesn't really want change because he can neither imagine it or envisage it. He's rooted into the old way of thinking that dogs our entire politicla system. He's entrenched in a party system that doesn't allow any real deviation from the status quo.

username123

MYOB wrote: »

They also have the Land Registry which is a far more detailed and accurate list of who owns what than anything else.

The land registry is a registry of land, not housing stock. There is no way to compile a comprehensive database off this information when in some cases data goes back to pre-electronic times, with holes in data etc...

Dont you think they would have used this if it was feasible? The fact that they used self declaration says a lot in itself.

For the OP - Im not sure that an elderly lady living in a 5 bedroom house on land alone is a good idea though. Surely the upkeep and maintenance is going to become too much at some point? Surely it would be a lot easier physically if she moved into a smaller place? I see it with my father in law, he is physically not able to keep his house clean and has trouble on the stairs, yet suggestions of moving into a smaller more manageable place are met with disgust. I dont get it myself.

Zamboni

username123 wrote: »

The land registry is a registry of land, not housing stock. There is no way to compile a comprehensive database off this information when in some cases data goes back to pre-electronic times, with holes in data etc...

Dont you think they would have used this if it was feasible? The fact that they used self declaration says a lot in itself.

This is off topic but it is an interesting point the whole household charge issue has inadvertently brought to light.
Government and semi-state body records are absolutely abysmal.
It is a shocking indictment of the civil service.
There is no joined up thinking at all.
As it stands, I currently have three votes in three separate districts due to incompetence in council managed electoral registers.

fergiesfolly

I honestly don't get the mentality of some posters on this thread.
Firstly. I don't think its fair to ask any pensioner, who have spent a lifetime paying taxes(many at a higher rate than we do) to pay taxes on a house that was bought and paid for decades ago.They've paid their dues, probably budgeted their savings and pension to see them through their remaining years. The least the state owes them is to be left alone to get on with it, without the worry of an unforseen outgoing on a fixed income.
My parents paid(against my advice) and will pay next year too. Even though they might have to cut back on other neccessities to do so. And at their time of life, thats not on.
Secondly.
This government are broke and rather than grow a pair and tell the banks and EU to sod off, they've decided to invent "fair" taxes to levy on the one group in this mess with no real power...the people.
If property tax was a fair and equitable system, why wasn't levied at the height of the boom when we were all, supposedly, rolling in cash.
The citizens of this country are on their stomachs and this government happy to push their faces in to the mud, so long as they can save face with our European neighbours.
And neighbour is probably the wrong word. You wouldn't screw over a neighbour, the way the EU(germany, france) are willing to screw us

UDP

Strange how OP's mother is afraid of how much the household charge/property tax will rise next year but not afraid of how much fines/penalties will build up on her or her property.

The fact is it is law thus you must pay it or suffer the consequences.

It is also a good idea imo.

I cannot understand these idiots protesting at the €100 household charge. Would it not make more sense to specifically protest over the paying of unsecured debt instead? Even if we were not in the bad place with bank debt etc they should still have brought in this household/property tax.

@fergiesfolly: your point does not make sense about old people should be left alone. There are a lot of costs associated nowadays with pensioners with better high tech healthcare than 40/50 years ago etc. which these pensioners do benefit from amongst other things. We all have to cut back and make do with what we have whether young or old and taxes will always change up or down.

fergiesfolly

The point I was making was that oap's spent their lives paying for the services around them. Normal societal rules would have it, that now society takes care of them. And not to go asking them to bail out the reckless generation that came after.

mmc2010

If I could see a half efficient public sector and health service, I might be enticed to support the property tax. My mother in law is similar to the OP. An extremely law abiding lady who never criticised anyone in her life has decided that no way will she be paying this tax. Her attitude is she provides her own water, she lives in the country where there are no street lights, pays for her bins to be collected and the roads she uses are in a desperate state. What local amenities is she availing of? I, then, will be building a house on a site she gifted to us and will be paying €4.5k for development contribution which again goes to 'local amenities', do I have to pay again for the same thing next year with a property tax?

gosuckonalemon

RATM wrote: »

I was just talking to my pensioner aged mother yesterday and had asked her if she paid the household charge. She said she hadn't and also that she didn't intend to, regardless of fines or penalties. She is a completely law abiding citizen (up until now at least), I remember laughing at how mortified she was at once getting caught speeding for doing 56kph in a 50kph zone. Since then she always has one eye on the speedmeter so it doesn't happen again !

They will probably deduct it from her state pension.

RATM wrote: »

Anyway I asked her why she didn't pay, given that she is not one to go around flouting the law, etc. She said it is not the €100 but that she is worried sick about what is coming down the line. Her situation is probably not unlike that of a lot of pensioners in the country- she lives in a large five bedroom house and now all the kids have moved on. It is home to her (and us) so there is no question of her ever downsizing to a 2 bed apartment or something similar.

If it is home to you and whoever else comes under "us" then perhaps you should contribute?

There is no reason why a woman should live alone in a large 5 bedroomed house.
If she is worried about the tax then she should just sell up, downsize to a bungalow (no stairs for climbing) and keep the excess money to make sure she lives the rest of her years in financial security.

RATM wrote: »

So my questions is specifically to people who have paid the €100 Household Charge. Are you ready and willing to pay a charge (be it next year or thereafter) of €1k-€2k per year ? Or are we going to see even more mass disobedience when those who have paid €100 begin to realise that it is only a small sum compared to what they are expected to pay annually ?

Interested to hear peoples thoughts please.

Yes I am willing to pay a tax on my property as is done the world over.

People need to realize that they can refuse to pay the 100e now but will eventually have to pay it down the line along with accumulated taxes and interest.

I own a small, terraced 2 bed townhouse so I think it is completely just that your mother, who lives in a large 5 bed house pays more.

If she refuses to live in a more appropriate house to her needs then she must pay the price. The Celtic Tiger days are over. People need to live within their means. Particularly old people.

OldNotWIse

NIMAN wrote: »

Your whole argument is based on what you think the household charge will rise to, but its all just guessing.

How do you think that my house in rural Donegal will have the same household tax as a house in central London? Thats based on what exactly?

Nearly every country has some sort of household tax. My own widowed pensioner mother in NI lives in a 4 bed semi and pays £1000 per year.

We are getting off light at €100, believe me.

And clearly you are assuming that there will be some kind of fair method used to determine who pays what. Has the fact that they launched this as a blanket charge in the first place not told you anything? Nobody is right in assuming anything but I would be more inclined towards the OP's assumption (that this is the thin edge of the wegde) than yours (that you will pay less because your house is in a rural area)

OldNotWIse

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

They will probably deduct it from her state pension.



If it is home to you and whoever else comes under "us" then perhaps you should contribute?

There is no reason why a woman should live alone in a large 5 bedroomed house.
If she is worried about the tax then she should just sell up, downsize to a bungalow (no stairs for climbing) and keep the excess money to make sure she lives the rest of her years in financial security.






Yes I am willing to pay a tax on my property as is done the world over.

People need to realize that they can refuse to pay the 100e now but will eventually have to pay it down the line along with accumulated taxes and interest.

I own a small, terraced 2 bed townhouse so I think it is completely just that your mother, who lives in a large 5 bed house pays more.

If she refuses to live in a more appropriate house to her needs then she must pay the price. The Celtic Tiger days are over. People need to live within their means. Particularly old people.

So an elserly person who has worked and contributed all their lives (and probably raised a large, tax paying family) and seen the country through more hard times than anyone posting on here has probably seen is supposed to sell their fmaily home and move into a one bed flat just because their family has moved on and they have been widowed? That's a little militant isn't it? OK fair enough they should pay the charge but telling us someone should "downsize and live within their means" for the sake of it is a bit harsh

OldNotWIse

We are being told that this charge is to fund upkeep of parks and services etc...how were said services carried out before....

Ronnie Binge

I have paid the Household Charge even though I think that the whole thing is a scam to screw homeowners at the behest of the IMF and Brussels. I don't break laws if I can help it but I don't have to like having to comply with this. The county and town councils have inflated administrations and grotesque castles of buildings housing all the administration staff who are getting a free ride from the tax payer.

I'm familar with Council Tax in England. It would be an interesting exercise to strip out the costs of policing and education from the average UK Council Tax bill. In the last few months while I was living in the West of England I paid £75 per month to the local council to cover those services plus refuse, planning, street lighting and cleaning. Even taking the difference in provision between Irish and English local authorities, any of us will be damn lucky to get away with €100 p.a. in the future. In addition, those who pay will have to subsidise those who don't pay, with costs for the compliant driven up accordingly.

The other surprise for non-home owners is that if the Government implement a tax similar to Council Tax, then the individual householder, whether home owner or not, has to pay. Unlike the Household Charge, tenants do not get a free ride. There is a separate means tested benefit called Council Tax Benefit administered by the local authority for those on Job Seeker's Allowance.

Finally, using the reverse argument to those who blithely accept this additional charge as being something normal or even desirable, can we have VRT scrapped because no other country in Europe has anything similar? Thought not.

Snakeblood

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We are being told that this charge is to fund upkeep of parks and services etc...how were said services carried out before....

With money from the construction industry and stamp duty. That revenue source is gone. Up until the 70s people were paying rates, but Fianna Fail got rid of that in one of their previous bids to ruin the country by promising everything to everyone.

Penny Dreadful

Sparky_Larks wrote: »

I paid the tax. 2 reasons
1) It is the law - If you don;t like the law then abide by it while campaigning to change it
2) It believe that we need a property tax

I think 100 is too low. I am willing for it to go up to more.

If we do not tax property( I believe in site value tax by the way) we have to tax something else.

Could put 1% on vat though that will drive down spending resulting in job losses in the retail sector.

Can increase income tax, but that will affect Jobs.

The question who should contribute more,
a low income pensioner, in central Dublin in a 4- bedroom house worth 650,000 close to bus links and rail links all subsidised by public transport,

or a moderately high earner( say 75,000 joint income), with 4 children living in Kildare , who cannot afford a house that is near to schools, shops buses etc, commuting 2 hours to work every day?

Every report at the moment says that it is the 55 to 75 year old age group ho have the largest disposable income, there for those who can pay most should pay most.

My problem with statements like this (and not just in relation to the household charge) is that the people in this group (thinking of my parents, 68 and 71) have paid a whole lot of tax for all of their working lives and it is IMHO dreadfully unfair that they are expected to pay again.
My parents paid close to 20% interest on their mortgage as was common in the late 70s / early 80s. Dad was hammered on income tax and paid over 50%, again as was common at the time. Rates were charged too as were a variety of other additional taxes.
People in this group have paid their way already, if they have a disposable income now, I think they have earned the right to have it left alone.
Like the OPs mother, my parents have added onto their house over the years, developed a lovely garden, etc and I think it would atrocious for them, as pensioners, to be expected to fork out a large some of money in property tax.

Bullseye1

dudara wrote: »

To me, this is an example of the mé-féin attitude that is partially to blame for the ruined economy of this country. Non-payers of the HC need to find some social responsibility and realise that paying taxes is part of the road to recovery. It's part of being a socially aware and responsible citizen.

You may not like paying taxes, but surely you have the brains to see the benefits in paying taxes.

Oh for God's sake. This type of sanctimonious post is so typical of many of the people who have paid. By all means pour your money into a system which is broke. But don't tell the rest of us who pay their taxes, tv bills, motor taxes etc that we are me-fein. That is complete and utter tosh.

Road to recovery your having a laugh.

OldNotWIse

Snakeblood wrote: »

With money from the construction industry and stamp duty. That revenue source is gone. Up until the 70s people were paying rates, but Fianna Fail got rid of that in one of their previous bids to ruin the country by promising everything to everyone.

Money from the construction industry? Really?

OldNotWIse

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake. This type of sanctimonious post is so typical of many of the people who have paid. By all means pour your money into a system which is broke. But don't tell the rest of us who pay their taxes, tv bills, motor taxes etc that we are me-fein. That is complete and utter tosh.

Road to recovery your having a laugh.

I agree. Makes it sound like those who did not pay have been screwing the system all their lives. Most people I know who did not pay have contributed a lot to society and are simply sick and tired of seeing their tax squandered and having bugger all say in where it goes :rolleyes:

gosuckonalemon

OldNotWIse wrote: »

So an elserly person who has worked and contributed all their lives (and probably raised a large, tax paying family) and seen the country through more hard times than anyone posting on here has probably seen is supposed to sell their fmaily home and move into a one bed flat just because their family has moved on and they have been widowed? That's a little militant isn't it? OK fair enough they should pay the charge but telling us someone should "downsize and live within their means" for the sake of it is a bit harsh

It's a bit harsh, but a reality unfortunately.

I never metioned anything about a one bedroomed flat. Just a more modest, appropriate bungalow in the same areas as she lives.

Yes, elderly people have contributed massively in the course of their lives. However, with advances in medicine and healthcare they are living much longer which has increased demands on the healthcare system which current taypayers are paying.

If the woman can afford to sustain living alone in a large 5 bed house then by all means she should do so. However, I know that if it was me, and I had a choice of living with the costs of maintaining a large house like that or selling up, finding a more appropriate sized home and getting a lump sum it would be a no brainer!

Ronnie Binge

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

It's a bit harsh, but a reality unfortunately.

I never metioned anything about a one bedroomed flat. Just a more modest, appropriate bungalow in the same areas as she lives.

Yes, elderly people have contributed massively in the course of their lives. However, with advances in medicine and healthcare they are living much longer which has increased demands on the healthcare system which current taypayers are paying.

If the woman can afford to sustain living alone in a large 5 bed house then by all means she should do so. However, I know that if it was me, and I had a choice of living with the costs of maintaining a large house like that or selling up, finding a more appropriate sized home and getting a lump sum it would be a no brainer!

Her house, her business, no brainer.

OldNotWIse

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Sparky_Larks wrote: »

I paid the tax. 2 reasons
1) It is the law - If you don;t like the law then abide by it while campaigning to change it
2) It believe that we need a property tax

I think 100 is too low. I am willing for it to go up to more.

If we do not tax property( I believe in site value tax by the way) we have to tax something else.

Could put 1% on vat though that will drive down spending resulting in job losses in the retail sector.

Can increase income tax, but that will affect Jobs.

The question who should contribute more,
a low income pensioner, in central Dublin in a 4- bedroom house worth 650,000 close to bus links and rail links all subsidised by public transport,

or a moderately high earner( say 75,000 joint income), with 4 children living in Kildare , who cannot afford a house that is near to schools, shops buses etc, commuting 2 hours to work every day?

Every report at the moment says that it is the 55 to 75 year old age group ho have the largest disposable income, there for those who can pay most should pay most.

My problem with statements like this (and not just in relation to the household charge) is that the people in this group (thinking of my parents, 68 and 71) have paid a whole lot of tax for all of their working lives and it is IMHO dreadfully unfair that they are expected to pay again.
My parents paid close to 20% interest on their mortgage as was common in the late 70s / early 80s. Dad was hammered on income tax and paid over 50%, again as was common at the time. Rates were charged too as were a variety of other additional taxes.
People in this group have paid their way already, if they have a disposable income now, I think they have earned the right to have it left alone.
Like the OPs mother, my parents have added onto their house over the years, developed a lovely garden, etc and I think it would atrocious for them, as pensioners, to be expected to fork out a large some of money in property tax.

"The question who should contribute more,
a low income pensioner, in central Dublin in a 4- bedroom house worth 650,000 close to bus links and rail links all subsidised by public transport"

Even if a house IS worth this, it is not active income so are you suggesting that people should sell the fmaily home in order to pay? Also, why the positive discrimination against those who live in the city and therefore have access to better services? They paid MORE for their homes in the first place so that they could avail of said services, they've already paid extra!

OldNotWIse

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

It's a bit harsh, but a reality unfortunately.

I never metioned anything about a one bedroomed flat. Just a more modest, appropriate bungalow in the same areas as she lives.

Yes, elderly people have contributed massively in the course of their lives. However, with advances in medicine and healthcare they are living much longer which has increased demands on the healthcare system which current taypayers are paying.

If the woman can afford to sustain living alone in a large 5 bed house then by all means she should do so. However, I know that if it was me, and I had a choice of living with the costs of maintaining a large house like that or selling up, finding a more appropriate sized home and getting a lump sum it would be a no brainer!

Gawd the bare faced cheek of them living longer like that and screwing us poor tax payers :rolleyes: Erm, said advances in medicine mean YOU will live longer too and...you guessed it - your kids will be paying for your healthcare some day. Dont forget we are all heading the same way. Some day you too will be a drain on the system.

gosuckonalemon

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Gawd the bare faced cheek of them living longer like that and screwing us poor tax payers :rolleyes: Erm, said advances in medicine mean YOU will live longer too and...you guessed it - your kids will be paying for your healthcare some day. Dont forget we are all heading the same way. Some day you too will be a drain on the system.

Yes I'm aware we will all live longer, that's why we should all be expected to contribute to this charge.

This whole thing of "a sure they are old and have paid taxes all their lives" doesn't float anymore.

There are only two things certain in life...
1)death and 2) taxes, until you reach no. 1, expect to suffer no. 2

Mr. Presentable

How long have we had stamp duty? Is that not a property tax?

tayto lover

NIMAN wrote: »

I have absolutely no doubt that the HC will increase from €100. Never gonna stay that low.

But I do hope that they are sensible with the rises in future. I think they did a bit of kite flying recently and the figures had a 3 bed semi around he €150 - €200 mark. I honestly think that isn't bad tbh. But with the state of the finances, who really knows where it'll end up?

As for those thinking they are being smart avoiding it, I personally wouldn't be so smug about it. They will get it off you somehow. First off, it is attached to your property and so are the late fees, so if you ignore it now and try to sell in 15yrs time, you'll owe a pretty penny, and it will come out of your house sale.

If you die and leave your house to family, it will come out of your estate.

I also would fear that they will start deducting it from state benefits such as child allowance, dole etc. Thats an extreme measure, but these are extreme times.

Also heard something on the radio today that made me think that it will start people falling out with each other. It was always said that the HC would be for your local council for local use. Many didn't believe this. I heard that there is a possibility that the councils with the highest rate of non-payment may see their budgets for things like arts, entertainment, public parks etc cut. If that happens then you can be sure that those that paid will soon start to turn on those that didn't.

And finally, it is now a law, just like the TV licence. Why is there not the same social disobedience to that?

I can't help feeling that you vote F.G.

OldNotWIse

Ronnie Binge wrote: »

Her house, her business, no brainer.

Exactly, some people seem to be living in some parallel Ireland where we still have a thriving property market. My Gran owns (yes owns she is not mortgaged up to her neck like most of us from the "instant gratification" generation) her own house that her and my Grandad worked all their lives for. Yes it has 4 bedrooms, the cheek of her staying there after her family moved on any my grandad died! This house is maybe worth 150k max - she is supposed to sell this and buy a one bed bungalow and still have a "lump sum"? erm.....