Aircoach Dublin-Cork express

dowlingm

To say "IE didn't need the Mk4s" obscures the fact that they basically replaced Mk2s and Cravens (and thus raised the overall fleet standard) and are 125mph capable with suitable propulsion. Unlike the 22s they can vary consist lengths due to defective coaches without going into dry dock for months like 22037 or 22033. The ride quality issues were badly handled though.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

To say "IE didn't need the Mk4s" obscures the fact that they basically replaced Mk2s and Cravens (and thus raised the overall fleet standard) and are 125mph capable with suitable propulsion.

which they most lightly will never travel at in their lifetime

dowlingm wrote: »

Unlike the 22s they can vary consist lengths due to defective coaches without going into dry dock for months like 22037 or 22033.

well you see had IE been right at all they would have ordered the 22000s in such a way that carriges could have been added on and taken off per demand rather than just having 3 and 6 car sets
couldn't they do something like this. 2 sets of 3 cars. take the front car off one and the back car off the other. move out the 2 sets of 2 and put them together, or a 6 car could be split in 2 with 2 of a 3 car forming the end 2 carriges where 5 carriges might only be required. you see it would mean a 6 car isn't going on a service that doesn't require a 6 car but does require more than a 3 car.

LeftBlank

end of the road wrote: »

in an ideal world IE would have never bought the mk4s. they would run cork dublin and dublin cork trains non-stop using the ICRS. they would put on direct limerick, and tralee services per demand to fill the intermediat stops. one thing is for sure, they will need to up their game big time if they want to attract customers to them or back to them specially on the express bus routes.

I don't think they could mix a non-stop service with stopping services with only one track each way for most of the route.

kieran4003

Modern DMU's do not work like that. If you were to have the system you are proposing, then you would basically be back with the concept of shunting carraiges about the place - a cost which DMU's are intended to remove. The 3 and 6 car formations are grand, though I was always of the opinion that there should of been a greater number of 6 car sets bought. Demand can be adjusted by creating clockface, regular timetables with a 3 car or 6 car allocated as appropiate. The above has been done in the past few years. The best example is the Sligo line, were previously there were 3 services a day with long rakes of MK2's, but now there are 8 services a day with a mix of 6 car and 3 car ICR's. It has worked very well.

Regarding the MK4's, there would be 125mph operation now only for the recession, the board had given preliminary approval to the plans but unfortunately the crash happened. It will be there in time, but not with the MK4's. High Speed, Electric operation is the preferred option in the 2030 report.Current management have never been very happy with the MK4's, ICR type units would be preferred, with bigger first class and buffet cars. The MK4's were ordered under different management, almost 10 years ago now. However at the time the 201 class were only 7-8 years old, so it was considered a waste to buy full DMU sets. Personally, I find the MK4 a better Intercity train than the ICR, but the MK4 has a big disadvantage with the lack of powerpoints at all seats.

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

couldn't they do something like this. 2 sets of 3 cars. take the front car off one and the back car off the other. move out the 2 sets of 2 and put them together, or a 6 car could be split in 2 with 2 of a 3 car forming the end 2 carriges where 5 carriges might only be required. you see it would mean a 6 car isn't going on a service that doesn't require a 6 car but does require more than a 3 car.

No. A safety case for that series of train only exists for the 3/6 combos, which is why 22033 was not run as a five car set when one car had a fire. I guess having the extra driving wheels makes certification harder somehow.

LXFlyer

LeftBlank wrote: »

I don't think they could mix a non-stop service with stopping services with only one track each way for most of the route.

Nonsense. There is plenty of capacity for most of the route. The 1700 Heuston/Cork could easily go non-stop - there is nothing blocking it. Remember that there are only two trains per hour (usually only one) beyond Portlaoise.

The real question is whether there is a business case for non-stop rail services over a one or two stop service.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

Nonsense. There is plenty of capacity for most of the route. The 1700 Heuston/Cork could easily go non-stop - there is nothing blocking it. Remember that there are only two trains per hour (usually only one) beyond Portlaoise.

The real question is whether there is a business case for non-stop rail services over a one or two stop service.

There are less trains on the Dublin to Waterford line past Kildare but trains are regularly held up at stations waiting for the track to be cleared. All those delays of 5-20 minutes are time that the train should be moving! Carlow to heuston should be possible in less than an hour and waterford-dublin in less than 2hours even stopping at most stations but it is not possible because the line is single track for most of the journey.


By delay I mean it is time added in to the timetable to allow for this so the delays are not technically delays or late trains, much like the buses now which can reach Carlow in 80minutes but because drivers must wait in Carlow for the extra time anyway they usually take 90minutes or to put it another way the bus Eireann motorway service takes as long now as the JJ Kavanagh stopping service through Naas Kilcullen and Castledermot.

BenShermin

First time using the new Aircoach service this morning and I'm very unimpressed with their customer service being honest. There was an elderly couple queuing up for the bus thinking that it stopped in Durrow. The driver said that the bus was express and then handed the couple an out of date timetable stating that non-express services were still going every second hour all day.

As soon as the driver was out of sight I told the couple to go to Busaras for the number 008 as there was no stopping Aircoach services until the afternoon And that the timetable he gave them was out of date. Thankfully they took my advice instead of the driver's.

LeftBlank

lxflyer wrote: »

Nonsense. There is plenty of capacity for most of the route. The 1700 Heuston/Cork could easily go non-stop - there is nothing blocking it. Remember that there are only two trains per hour (usually only one) beyond Portlaoise.

The real question is whether there is a business case for non-stop rail services over a one or two stop service.

It's not beyond Portloaise that's the problem - it's between there and Dublin, or more specifically Kildare-Hazelhatch would be the real problem.

LXFlyer

But there is no problem.

The 1700 has a clear run to Portlaoise as it is. All the Dublin Cork trains have clear runs to Portlaoise as it is except for the 1800, which could if there was more intelligent use of the 4 track section.

The capacity argument is a total red herring. With intelligent pathing it is perfectly possible to do it with the existing infrastructure.

BenShermin

Well I can safely say I've had one of the worst coach trips of my life today with thanks to First Aircoach and I will happily fork out the extra €20 for a return with Iarnród Éireann in the future as a result.

In addition to the fact that the company gives drivers out of date timetables the bus journey itself left a lot to be disired. It was a tri-axle bus. The air-con was broken so on a hot day like this my shirt and trousers stuck to the leather seats because I was sweating, the seats themselves are awful with the leather lining digging into the back of my leg for the entire journey.

The service left Westmoreland Street 10mins late and arrived in Cork 31mins late because of a break at Urlingford. It's simply not good enough to arrive that late IMO, either timetable in an Urlingford break or don't stop there, end of!

I won't give times of buses because I'm going to email my concerns to Firstgroup in relation to this. Bottom line though I'd be the first to complain about Iarnród Èireann's service, but to be fair they still get me to/from Dublin to Cork on time and in comfort around 95% of the time even if they are stupidly slow for a railway operator. I'm not prepared to give that on time reliability up to use a Micky mouse operation like Aircoach. They have to up their game!

SandyfordGuy

To be fair BenShermin I would say that it was probably an isolated or rare incident and calling someone a mickey mouse outfit based on one experience is harsh. I've took the service four times since the direct service launched in the past and haven't experienced any of the problems that you suggest, and for me at least the seats are much more comfortable and better leg room than rival companies who are much more restricted in this regard.

However what I will say is that you should for sure contact the company and let them know about the incorrect timetables that are being provided by the drivers. There for sure it sounds needs to be a briefing sent out to drivers on the route, and also the timetables carried by the coaches replaced in both the Cork and the Dublin bases. It is not their responsibility though to inform or to know about other operators and Bus Eireann would be of the same viewpoint I would suspect.

Did you point out the lack of air-conditioning to the driver Did he say it was fixed? I've seen one driver before who thought he turned it on but had not, as he has his own controls for the driver cab so may not know unless it was brought to his attention. If it was broken however and he stated the fact then this really needs to be looked at by the maintenance team, so again I would inform them about this.

The toilet issue is without doubt one that does need addressing, however as previous pages in this thread have shown, whatever option is decided upon, there are always some people that will not be happy. Of course the ideal situation may be toilets on-board. But then again that would need the procuring of new vehicles which is probably unlikely and even then some people would complain about the smell.

BenShermin

Of course you're right, Aircoach shouldn't be telling customers BÉs timetable and vice versa but they should be handing out timetables that are valid.

I didn't point out the air con problem because it came on for 10 minutes and then stopped for around 25 minutes and then came on again and that cycle continued, so it was obvious the driver couldn't do much, besides I didn't want to delay the journey any further.

Can't agree with you about the comfort of the seats I'm afraid. I get the feeling these buses were specked out for short hop commuter journeys, not intercity journeys. Even though the BÉ Irizars have less legroom they do have seats built for intercity customers IMO.

The interesting thing about the Urlingford stop was that nobody requested it so it should have went non stop. Given that most of the bus pax seemed to visit the toilets.

I called them a Micky Mouse operation not only on my own experience but some of my friends experiences and posts on this board. 15 to 30 min delays seem the norm, albeit anecdotal evidence, but it's word of mouth that makes or breaks a service that lacks any marketing.

I'm not a CIE sympathiser in any way, and I was really disappointed today to take a competing service that wasn't up to scratch. I really want to see viable competition as a frequent traveller to Cork and that's why I'm going to pass my concerns onto Firstgroup. If Gobus start a service on this route they'll eat Aircoach alive IMO.

devnull

BenShermin - Respect your views but think you are going a little over the top. Also the fact that you're not posting the coach times may make some casual observer think this is through fear of your story being undone, along with your claims about constant delays which is not bore out on this thread, as there are many more people on this thread who have claimed the service is on time and very few delays, and those that are there have been 10 minutes, something which plights pretty much any long distance coach service in the country from time to time,

I've moaned a lot about Aircoach on this thread recently as I think they've done a lot wrong with the launch of the Cork direct service especially in the areas of marketing and planning of the service in some aspects, as well as the quality of information coming from the company, as was bore out by the fact the drivers do not even have the correct timetables, which is typical of such flaws which needs to be sorted out by management.

I personally wouldn't use GoBus, whilst their seats themselves are average, the terrible layout of the seats, with no proper recline, is by far the worst seating I've ever seen on the coach which is why the Volvo 9700 model that they have bought has been pretty much ignored in most of Europe simply because as far as comfort is concerned it's not good. I've sat on those Aircoach seats for 3 and a half hours on the Tri-Axle's and never had a problem. They're not quite as nice as the Setra's, but they're still nice and far better than anything Bus Eireann serves up with it's poor legroom and cheap fabric.

kieran4003

lxflyer wrote: »

But there is no problem.

The 1700 has a clear run to Portlaoise as it is. All the Dublin Cork trains have clear runs to Portlaoise as it is except for the 1800, which could if there was more intelligent use of the 4 track section.

The capacity argument is a total red herring. With intelligent pathing it is perfectly possible to do it with the existing infrastructure.

Believe it or not, the 17:00 can make such a good headway it almost catches up with the 16:25 to Limerick before Limerick Junction. It completes the 2:30 timing very easily. The 18:00 can also get a good run, it all depends on the 17:45 to Galway clearing Portarlington quickly. If it does get a good run, it can be in to Thurles 10 minutes early, owing to the increasing speed limits in recent times. It is a pain though having to sit there for 10 minutes, so many drivers simply take their time going there. Of course the extra stop at Ballybrophy has reduced it somewhat, but now it waits in Ballybrophy for a period, if the driver does not pass time on the way. Waiting times will lengthen further when Lisduff gets its speed increase. This is why a trial speed train ran recently, in order to set times in preparation for a timetable overhaul.

BenShermin wrote: »

Well I can safely say I've had one of the worst coach trips of my life today with thanks to First Aircoach and I will happily fork out the extra €20 for a return with Iarnród Éireann in the future as a result.

In addition to the fact that the company gives drivers out of date timetables the bus journey itself left a lot to be disired. It was a tri-axle bus. The air-con was broken so on a hot day like this my shirt and trousers stuck to the leather seats because I was sweating, the seats themselves are awful with the leather lining digging into the back of my leg for the entire journey.

The service left Westmoreland Street 10mins late and arrived in Cork 31mins late because of a break at Urlingford. It's simply not good enough to arrive that late IMO, either timetable in an Urlingford break or don't stop there, end of!

I won't give times of buses because I'm going to email my concerns to Firstgroup in relation to this. Bottom line though I'd be the first to complain about Iarnród Èireann's service, but to be fair they still get me to/from Dublin to Cork on time and in comfort around 95% of the time even if they are stupidly slow for a railway operator. I'm not prepared to give that on time reliability up to use a Micky mouse operation like Aircoach. They have to up their game!

I am sorry you had an experience like that. Aircoach should have up to date timetables onboard, I am quite surprised at that but then again their marketing has not been up to scratch. If a coach does not have working air conditioning, generally it should not be put into service, though their resources could of been stretched at the time and It is better provide some bus then no bus to be fair.

I have maintained that the timing for this service should be 3:15. The timing they are giving while perfectly acheivable in quiet periods, is not being met a lot of the time and whatever about coaches arriving late, leaving late is not good. Customers would take no notice of an extra 15 mins in the timetable. It would improve reliability and in quieter periods it would arrive early. I dont understand why the express services are making stops in urlingford, I understand though it only happens sometimes. It will take time for passengers to get used to a non stop service, so in time these breaks will fizzle out.

I would not call Aircoach a micky mouse operation, as coach operators go, they are very good. They have a very good fleet of coaches, some of which would be of a better standard then Bus Eireanns standard Scania Irizar PB coach.

Another point is that the reliability of Irish Rail services is far more scrutinised then the services of private operators. I think if the NTA hands out licences to private operators, then their service reliability should be examined aswell, this has led to some 'rogue' operators entering the market (Aircoach is certainly not one of these) and providing a less then satisfactory service.

BenShermin

Devnull I have posted on this thread somewhere that I've seen Aircoach getting to Patricks Quay a few minutes early last month when I used the train. I even claimed that this beat Irish Rail city centre to city centre, I always give credit where it's due.

But I've also heard a good few stories of the service being late mostly because of that Urlingford stop. A thirty minute delay today in very light traffic was just a joke.

I just don't see how putting the time of the service up could give any merit to my truthful story but for the transparency of the debate I'll put it up, it was the 1100 service from Westmoreland Street.

I'm not one bit loyal to CIE and I have no conflicts of interest whatsoever anymore, the days of me paying stupid amounts of money to get to Cork just for an 071 and MK3s are over, these days I just want to get from A to B in comfort and Aircoach failed today.

SandyfordGuy

BenShermin wrote: »

Of course you're right, Aircoach shouldn't be telling customers BÉs timetable and vice versa but they should be handing out timetables that are valid.

I don't think any sane person can disagree with that.

I didn't point out the air con problem because it came on for 10 minutes and then stopped for around 25 minutes and then came on again and that cycle continued, so it was obvious the driver couldn't do much, besides I didn't want to delay the journey any further.

Can't agree with you about the comfort of the seats I'm afraid. I get the feeling these buses were specked out for short hop commuter journeys, not intercity journeys. Even though the BÉ Irizars have less legroom they do have seats built for intercity customers IMO.

That could well be something the driver could actually fix. I don't know if the coaches feature air conditioning or if it is actually fully climate controlled. If it is the later, once the temperature goes below a pre-defined value it will shut off as the goal of such system is to maintain the climate inside the coach at a particular value, if this is set too high, which could well be the case here, it would explain why the air conditioning would go on and off. This could well be select-able from a drivers dashboard and would be a few second fix.

For me the new BE Irizar's are improved over the last batch of them, but still has seats which make your back feel very sore after a while, something I don't think I've ever felt on the Aircoach vehicles which are now running on the Cork route. However I would for sure concede that when it is too hot, for sure leather seats are far from ideal, but if the temperature is right, they are vastly superior to any fabric something that is bore out time and time again by high end tour companies, and top spec vehicles always being specified with leather seats.

The interesting thing about the Urlingford stop was that nobody requested it so it should have went non stop. Given that most of the bus pax seemed to visit the toilets.

I do think that the toilet situation does need to be clarified once and for all, it seems for the first few weeks the drivers were simply not stopping but there are people calling for stops and then kicking up a huge fuss if a driver does not make them. In one case we were gone past Urlingford and a passenger said if we did not stop soon he would go to toilet on the bus. Looking at it from a drivers perspective, it's very hard for them to win and I would guess some of them are now stopping anyway as they don't want someone to moan later on and get all the grief.

I called them a Micky Mouse operation not only on my own experience but some of my friends experiences and posts on this board. 15 to 30 min delays seem the norm, albeit anecdotal evidence, but it's word of mouth that makes or breaks a service that lacks any marketing.

I really want to see viable competition as a frequent traveller to Cork and that's why I'm going to pass my concerns onto Firstgroup. If Gobus start a service on this route they'll eat Aircoach alive IMO.

I have used them quite a few times to Cork, and also the Dublin City routes in the last few years and I wouldn't call them a Micky mouse outfit at all, but then again I've had greater experience of using their services and as with anything when it comes to reviews, opinions and ratings and surveys etc, the higher the sample size and trips taken, the more accurate the result as it takes out one off excellent trips but also one off unacceptable ones and gives a more accurate average, just the same as say a political opinion poll in the press will be more accurate with a higher sample size.

I think that Aircoach will have some challenges if GoBus come on the scene and any competition is going to be good for everyone which is the most important thing at the end of the day, but as has been pointed out on here several times, GoBus have issues themselves, particularly with seating design and layout also.

BenShermin

Fully agree it should timed for 3hr15. The express Bé that run on weekends always take around 3hr30 with a 15min stop at Urlingford. Making it 3hr 15 would improve reliability for sure.

devnull

BenShermin wrote: »

But I've also heard a good few stories of the service being late mostly because of that Urlingford stop. A thirty minute delay today in very light traffic was just a joke.

All of this comes back to the toilet situation which I think has been done to death pretty much. You have three distinct groups of people with three different opinions on this. Whatever way you look at it, it all comes back to toilets at the end of the day, which is a theme of a lot of this thread.

I just don't see how putting the time of the service up could give any merit to my truthful story but for the transparency of the debate I'll put it up, it was the 1100 service from Westmoreland Street.

I'm not saying there is, but unfortunately as you no doubt know from using this board, there are a number of people who have been trying to shill/troll whatever in the last few years on here and to the casual observer it's very difficult to tell apart who is and who is not being genuine. If you look at some of the posts relating to Aircoach over the past few years you will see that it's a very common theme.

BenShermin

Sorry there Sandyford guy, I don't think I was very clear on the AirCon situation, it was the overhead air switches for individual passengers that were broken, these should work all the time. Overall the bus was very warm though.

BenShermin

devnull wrote: »

I just don't see how putting the time of the service up could give any merit to my truthful story but for the transparency of the debate I'll put it up, it was the 1100 service from Westmoreland Street.

I'm not saying there is, but unfortunately as you no doubt know from using this board, there are a number of people who have been trying to shill/troll whatever in the last few years on here and to the casual observer it's very difficult to tell apart who is and who is not being genuine. If you look at some of the posts relating to Aircoach over the past few years you will see that it's a very common theme.

that's more than fair Devnull, the likes of Dalkey Resident took the biscuit!! There's also a lot of die hard anti CIE members on the board aswell.

I think it's very important to have healthy debate on the range of intercity services between our two main cities, it's great to see that fares have dropped across the board of public and private operators on the route. Hopefully Aircoach will iron out these problems and we will have quality for our fares.

BenShermin

The whole toilet thing is annoying alright. To put it in comparison there never seems to be a problem on BÉs 002 route which has no comfort stop from Rosslare Harbour to Dublin which is a 3 hr 20 min journey.

foggy_lad

BenShermin wrote: »

The whole toilet thing is annoying alright. To put it in comparison there never seems to be a problem on BÉs 002 route which has no comfort stop from Rosslare Harbour to Dublin which is a 3 hr 20 min journey.

Very few of the passengers on most of the 002 services are going the full journey, most are going between intermediate stops to or from work etc.

bk

I'm convinced that toilets are necessary for non-stop direct services and in this thread we have seen why.

I know some people prefer the extra leg room of the Aircoach buses over the toilet equipped GoBus and also some complain that the toilet is small and down some steps and may cause smell.

However these are all specific issues to GoBus and not necessarily a feature of all toilet equipped coaches.

For instance in the UK, National Express coaches have large toilets that are in the rare of the coach, which are accessible (toilet is on the same level, no steps) and they seem to have plenty of leg room.

They seem to achieve this by having less seats then GoBus/Aircoach.

Of course I'm not saying that the private coach operators can switch to these sort of coaches over night, but perhaps they can start thinking about moving in this direction as they renew their fleets over the next few years.

The coach industry already radically undercuts the prices of trains, but I feel they have to work hard to increase the quality of their product to come as close as possible to match the train, to shake off the old opinion that people have that buses are uncomfortable and crap.

I think people would even be willing to pay a few euro more (e.g. €25 vs €22) for a higher quality service.

SandyfordGuy

First of all it's important to declare I'm no fan of National Express, in recent years they have become a more and more marginal operator in the UK in both the city bus and the railway industry, after some truly horrific operations and services, where asset stripping and investment, especially in the rail side reached an all time low with presentation being disgraceful, they've gone from being the UK's largest rail operator to barely having a presence and people have only been too happy to see the back of them in the many franchises they have lost. They were worse than Irish Rail and that is quite hard. The only business they have left in fairly good shape is the coach division and generally that is partly down to the fact that the company was originally basically a UK equivalent of Bus Eireann that became National Express upon the privatization of the National Bus Company giving it a large network.

In relation to National Express Coaches, are we talking about one of these:
http://www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/picture/number3178.asp

National Express in the coach world does not exist per se. There is no such company operating and running vehicles themselves. Pretty much the whole coaching side is contracted to independent operators, who run services on behalf of National Express, and now have to buy coaches that National Express chooses with the funds of the independent operator which must be the ones shown in the photos below. This means essentially any National Express service you use is provided by an independent company, who just have the rights to use the National Express name, whilst National Express do all the marketing, service design, pricing and the core group strategy. A bit like how Citylink these days do not run any coaches themselves but the whole operation is contracted out. This obviously has competitive advantages as well, by getting possible rivals on side operating your services for them, rather than starting their own.

Having used the Levante coaches which are fast becoming the only coaches operating National Express services, I can't say that they are impressive in the slightest. Apart from being hideously ugly at the front, they have possibly the tightest seatbelts I've ever encountered on any motor vehicle, let alone coach and wearing one for a couple of hours is like being strangled and tied up. The Legroom is generally poor in most seats, and the seats barely recline and it suffers from the tiered seating problem, where a short person at the front can't reach the overhead rack and a tall person cannot go in the back few rows as there is no room for his or her head! Because the toilet is at the back of the hill, once again it means it's generally too small for tall people, which is a side effect of it being level with the floor when you have a tiered seating layout. The seats are also far too hard.

However the biggest problem that I've heard about the coaches is that the bodywork and in particular the interior of such coaches is of a poor standard. and continually requiring of a coach being taken out of service to be repaired, something that seems to affect the luggage racks and many of the other fittings, there is nothing worse going down a smooth motorway and hearing a constant loud rattle every few seconds because some fitting was bolted up with a single screw when it could do with a couple of more to make it hold better.

They've also had mechanical problems especially on the Volvo based Levantes, with gearboxes especially being a cause for concern, poor brakes and hard to control in bad weather. The Scania based Levante's are said to be better mechanically, but are said to be a little more rattly. There are also some Mercedes based ones which are supposed to be much better, however they were only produced for a short time because of their cost, also the wheelchair ramp once taken out at least half the time refuses to go back in and everyone gets delayed whilst it's fixed.

The above flaws and having to run such coaches as per contract has left many National Express contractors deciding to stop tendering for such work, because they and not National Express are responsible for such condition of the coaches and when the contract ends, they still are left with coaches that are generally expensive to run and spend a lot of time off the road having work done to them. The first few of them are now starting to appear on non-National Express services and many have had extensive work done to them to try and resolve the quality issues.

What I'm basically saying is that we're not ever going to have a perfect vehicle unless you buy a top of the range Setra, Vanhool or Neoplan which are by far better than any vehicle that any operator in Ireland operates right now, but they are never going to be viable in a front line intercity service due to the sheer cost of such vehicle. Some may lack in passenger comfort, others may lack in build quality or mechanical issues, others lack all three.

bk

Some interesting rumours that I have heard elsewhere:

1) GoBus's contract has been extended by another month.

2) Bus Eireann have applied for a license for a direct non stop (or very limited stop) license between Cork and Dublin. *

I assume they will only get this if GoBus don't use their license

3) Aircoach's new Dublin to Belfast service is still happening (shortly) and they now can use the Europa Bus Station.

4) Bus Eireann are preparing to launch a direct non stop Dublin to Belfast service *

* I really don't like the way CIE companies are all of a sudden being very competitive like this. Of course competition is great, but why couldn't they have applied for these licenses two years ago. I don't like the way that they are purely reactive.

I hope GoBus launch on the Cork route. What we need is a company with strong marketing skills (GoBus are very proven in this area) and toilets on board. A BE non stop service while it would have an advantage (nice new buses operating out of nice bus stations), still has no toilets on board.

BTW One last rumour, that I'm very dubious about, but I'll share it anyway, that an airline is testing a possible Cork to Dublin route.

kieran4003

bk wrote: »

Some interesting rumours that I have heard elsewhere:

1) GoBus's contract has been extended by another month.

2) Bus Eireann have applied for a license for a direct non stop (or very limited stop) license between Cork and Dublin. *

I assume they will only get this if GoBus don't use their license

3) Aircoach's new Dublin to Belfast service is still happening (shortly) and they now can use the Europa Bus Station.

4) Bus Eireann are preparing to launch a direct non stop Dublin to Belfast service *

* I really don't like the way CIE companies are all of a sudden being very competitive like this. Of course competition is great, but why couldn't they have applied for these licenses two years ago. I don't like the way that they are purely reactive.

I hope GoBus launch on the Cork route. What we need is a company with strong marketing skills (GoBus are very proven in this area) and toilets on board. A BE non stop service while it would have an advantage (nice new buses operating out of nice bus stations), still has no toilets on board.

BTW One last rumour, that I'm very dubious about, but I'll share it anyway, that an airline is testing a possible Cork to Dublin route.

Yes, Bus Eireann are keen to launch an X8 service. However I was of the understanding that they had previously applied for a licence but were turned down owing to the other two licences having been given out. However if Go Bus do not launch their service, then BE may get the licence. If BE or Go Bus succeed, then Aircoach are in trouble as they would both offer a superior more publicised service. BE are currently heavily promoting their service, promotional leaflets & timetables are being handed out, they were given out in UCC last week for example. Suffice to say, as inferior the BE service maybe to the Aircoach service, it is well more known about. Extra coaches are still being required on departures even with the Aircoach service and the new extra long tri axles.

BE already had a non stop Dublin Airport - Belfast service, they only run it during the Summer months - note it does not go to Dublin itself. It is called the X2. It is subcontracted out and BE are looking for operators with new coaches with toilets and wifi. It is quite odd when BE does not have these themselves!

Yes Aircoach are relaunching their Belfast service. The servce falied last time and with that was before a 24 hr stopping service and a non stop service from BE. I hope it is a success, but with their marketing and the stiff competition, I doubt it unfortunately. They should focus on the Cork route where they have a great opportunity.

J_Dublin15

You have to remember the Levante, whilst built by Caetano, is essentially a NX coach.This is not a coach model that can be bought on the open market. It is exclusively designed from scratch to a brief laid down by NX themselves and is sold to operators by NX when they win a tender to operate a service as NX specify that such coach must be used on subcontracted services, whereas in the past they were a little more flexible. This means that no coach company can buy this coach. It can only be acquired in conjunction with a NX tender. This also creates issues further down the line with parts and maintenance, since the coach is not widely available.

In the past NX used widely available models such as Plaxton's and Irizar's which sold in huge volumes meaning there was never a shortage of parts and as they were very common vehicles they were much easier to maintain from a knowledge point of view. From many operators point of view, having such widely available and popular models is far more efficient than dealing with a number of proprietary coaches which are quite rare, harder to obtain parts for and generally more expensive to run because of this. Also to be quite frank they are not as proven, and therefore not such a sensible long term investment as proven models.

In the last year or so the big groups who used to operate NX coaches on contract, such as First, Stagecoach and Veolia, have started to pull away from operating such services, partly due to the requirement to purchase new Levante coaches which they don't see as a great long term investment. Veolia have pulled out completely and within just a few weeks after finishing up their National Express work, they were already trying to shift their Levante's, I would assume as they are simply not happy with them and consider them surplus to their fleet of coaches.

First (Aircoach's owner) used to be the biggest NX contractor years ago, operating many services all over the UK using Irizar and Plaxton vehicles from 2000-2005, they took 6 Levante's in 2006 (as per NX brief) and apparently were pretty unimpressed with them and since haven't tendered for any NX contracts they have which have come up for renewal as they don't feel the investment in the new vehicles is worthwhile. A few of the contracts have since ended and the Scania's and Plaxton's released have been fully refurbished and have been put into service with GreyhoundUK and are now operating in competition with National Express against routes they used to run on! The rest of the contracts will expire this year and First will have zero involvement with NX contracts. The positive news about that though is it may free up some vehicles with toilets to be released to Dublin but that is pure speculation.

Stagecoach have also cut back the National Express work they do, having again been more active before the vehicle standard type was set. Curiously one of the routes that Stagecoach decided to retain is now operating using brand new Plaxton Elite coaches and not the Levante, there is speculation that Stagecoach wouldn't agree to operate such services going forward if they were forced to take the Levante and in this case NX had to come up with an alternative and whilst the Levante s still very much their number one choice, the Elite is now also being used on occasions now, although it's a much more expensive coach without the exclusivity and taylor made design that NX value on the Levante so it is with some reluctance.

devnull

So reading between the lines it seems that there could be a possible chance of some coaches with toilets in the UK arm of First become available in the coming months. If that is indeed the case that could well be good news if they manage to make it over to Dublin. Of course that's purely a hypothetical situation but it would seem to be one that would indeed be possible. I assume that all of the National Express coaches have toilets and not just the ones that you are moaning about in this thread?

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Bus Eireann have applied for a license for a Cork to Dublin direct route, as that is what you would expect. However It'd be very difficult to see how they would avail of one when there are already two operators on the route. Maybe they will end up something like the 20X with less stops than the normal route but one or two more than the express with just the larger town's. That is only BE's fault at the end of the day though, they were slow off the blocks and were behind two operators and that does seem to suggest they are too reactive rather than pro-active at times.

As for the Belfast route then if they have indeed got access to the Europa Bus centre, that is good news for consumers without doubt as it might instill some better competition, but I can't see Translink making life easy for them, in particular because they were talking about taking action against Translink anti-competitive behavior in 2005 and they've only now got access to the station in 2012. Even though they have now got access I would assume they will try and make Aircoach use the least visible/ideal stops there as private operators basically are non existent in Belfast.

You'd have to assume Aircoach would run Dublin City - Airport - Belfast, although I still think that it might be a good idea to bring the Greyhound brand to Ireland to operate the intercity services as the whole name Aircoach makes people think such services only support the airport and not the city centre.

bk

While people might be rightly critical of the NX coaches and they maybe far from perfect, I do think NX had the right idea. To drive new standards in comfort and accessibility in the coach industry.

And it seems to be working, the Plaxton Elites J_Dublin15 mentions are fully wheelchair accessible and while they have sunken toilets by default, they instead can have rare accessible flower level toilets as an option.

I assume the Stagecoach Plaxtons have this option and therefore meet the NX specs. They may not be Levantes, but it sounds like they match all the goals of the Levantes specs, but perhaps with the Levantes problems fixed.

This is good and it shows that NX's goals are having a positive effect on the whole industry.

devnull wrote: »

You'd have to assume Aircoach would run Dublin City - Airport - Belfast, although I still think that it might be a good idea to bring the Greyhound brand to Ireland to operate the intercity services as the whole name Aircoach makes people think such services only support the airport and not the city centre.

I'm not sure about that, with the correct marketing and position, Aircoach can be a very good brand. After all, all Aircoach routes do operate to Dublin Airport. Just as long as they get across that it is also stopping in Dublin City, I think it is a good brand and concept.

I'm kind of surprised they are relaunching the Belfast route too. I would have thought it might be better to focus on Cork first and perhaps even launch a Limerick -> Dublin -> Dublin Airport route. I know Dublin Coach have already launched there Limerick service, but it is also new (therefore less established and less competition then BE and Trans would be up North) and it doesn't serve the airport, so seems like easier competition.

Perhaps Aircoach have a long term plan to build a full City -> Dublin -> Dublin Airport network. Total speculation, but ComfortDelGro seem to have lost interest in Ireland, perhaps they might sell their Galway license to Aircoach too. Then the Aircoach brand might make a lot of sense.

Oh forgot about another interesting rumour, for BE's new Belfast direct route, they are looking for contractors to run it and they are looking for all the coaches to be speced with toliets and wifi. Seems BE have realised the importance of toilets on board.

Which just goes to show how stupid it is that they have just taken delivery of nice new expensive coaches, that have no toilets!!!

As for BE direct on the Cork route, I don't think the NTA will issue them with a fully direct license if GoBus takes up their license. The NTA policy I believe is each intercity route should have max two operators, operating an hourly service at 30 minute intervals (one operator on the hour, the other on the half hour). So no room for BE if GoBus take up their license. So maybe BE are looking for a less stopping license, more similar to Aircoachs stopping service.