Aircoach Dublin-Cork express

mydiscworld

Cheers. My over reaction then

Davy

Going from 8 to 18 each way in the space of one month, is there really that much demand??

And maybe reducing the normal services too much??

AlekSmart

Davy wrote: »

Going from 8 to 18 each way in the space of one month, is there really that much demand??

And maybe reducing the normal services too much??

Interesting strategy indeed and I'm afraid the "responding to demand" bit does'nt quite do it for me.....

I rather suspect this poster may be closer the mark....

Foggy_Lad: I wonder do they plan to accept the free travel passes on the Express service now or are they going to stop accepting them?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting strategy indeed and I'm afraid the "responding to demand" bit does'nt quite do it for me.....

I rather suspect this poster may be closer the mark....

It looks like they are trying to stifle any competition on the route before it even starts up. and they are more or less telling Bus Eireann to look after the people with free travel.

dowlingm

Wow - did they just ever f**k over the "intermediate stops" - three services in four hours and none the other 20. Seems like a "we have to operate some stops to keep NTA happy so we'll do that at offpeak times" strategy to me.

LXFlyer

I'd imagine there's nothing to stop Bus Eireann increasing the 008 frequency to hourly now given Aircoach have all but abandoned the intermediate market.

kieran4003

Very interesting development.

Aircoach are engaged in the classic monopoly strategy of preventing entry to keep monopoly power. (Aircoach has a monopoly on the express services). The put a theoretical point on it, they are following the classic theory of flooding the market with excess supply to reduce profits in the industry and keep out competition. Monopolies do this regardless of how loss making it is.

There is certainly nowhere near the demand to sustain that level of service but they must be absolutely petrified of Go Bus coming in, operating a superior service and taking over.

The smart element of the plan is to encourage Bus Eireanns fare paying Dublin - Cork passengers on to their service by offering much quicker times and keep the free travel passes away from themselves and leaving them to Bus Eireann. It is mean, but they are perfectly entitled to do it, that is business.

I understand Go Bus will have to have their service launched by sometime this month, or else apply for an extra three months. It will be interesting to see what they do.

At the moment however, Bus Eireann & Iarnrod Eireann are taking no notice of the new service as the bulk of the passengers using it are those using their old stopping service. Bus Eireann are monitoring the situation though. What can you expect though if you do not advertise. Times are tough in the bus industry though and if Aircoach dont start filling those seats fast, then this will end very badly for them. I understand they are currently loss making as a company so they will have to advertise this service well or else it will only put them in a worse financial situation.

devnull

kieran4003 wrote: »

Very interesting development.

Aircoach are engaged in the classic monopoly strategy of preventing entry to keep monopoly power. (Aircoach has a monopoly on the express services). The put a theoretical point on it, they are following the classic theory of flooding the market with excess supply to reduce profits in the industry and keep out competition. Monopolies do this regardless of how loss making it is.

There is certainly nowhere near the demand to sustain that level of service but they must be absolutely petrified of Go Bus coming in, operating a superior service and taking over.

The smart element of the plan is to encourage Bus Eireanns fare paying Dublin - Cork passengers on to their service by offering much quicker times and keep the free travel passes away from themselves and leaving them to Bus Eireann. It is mean, but they are perfectly entitled to do it, that is business.

I understand Go Bus will have to have their service launched by sometime this month, or else apply for an extra three months. It will be interesting to see what they do.

At the moment however, Bus Eireann & Iarnrod Eireann are taking no notice of the new service as the bulk of the passengers using it are those using their old stopping service. Bus Eireann are monitoring the situation though. What can you expect though if you do not advertise. Times are tough in the bus industry though and if Aircoach dont start filling those seats fast, then this will end very badly for them. I understand they are currently loss making as a company so they will have to advertise this service well or else it will only put them in a worse financial situation.

they need to market and fast

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

They need to market and fast

This is all very well and good,but are posters suggesting that Aircoach,as an integral part of First Group do not possess the business acumen to already be aware of this ?

We are semi-regularly notified,here and elsewhere,that the Private Sector is in possession of vast reserves of magic Private-Sector business ethos,just waiting to deliver services to the Public at almost no cost etc etc....:rolleyes:

The reality,I would suggest,is of a very well resourced parent group playing a hugely tactical game in order to protect its own business model.

In this case,and possibly as a tester for other pending services,the tactical approach appears to be as Kieran4003 suggests....identify the target market segment,segregate it and then sweat it to provide maximum return in terms of profit.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong in this,as it can bring significant cost-reduction benefits,particularly for those pasengers willing to take advantage of company driven schedules and travel opportunities.

However ,and significantly so,it is currently NOT the model for the services provided by the CIE companies.

It will therefore be doubly interesting to see where the Cork Express scenario leads....

Again,as Kieran4003 muses,the DSP "Business" is now assuming a new (to some) relevance as operators weigh-up the benefits,or otherwise of signing up for a guaranteed payment,albeit at a far lower per capita rate than they could possibly generate through their own methods.

Watch this one VERY carefully cos it could sprout wings very quickly indeed !! :eek:

Tragedy

Is there really not a potential market on an express Dublin-Cork route of ~500 passengers a day? I know I'm certainly considering taking the coach down rather than driving occasionally(€90 in petrol vs €22 return) and I can see others making a similar decision.

n97 mini

Tragedy wrote: »

€90 in petrol

That averages 22-23mpg. Most people would have more efficient cars than that.

I can do it return for €40, which still isn't poor enough to entice me onto the bus I'm afraid.

devnull

Such tactics that AlekSmart portrays would be valid if Aircoach are going to at least try and market the service a little bit.

You can't dominate a marketplace over a rival if nobody knows about you.

Tragedy

n97 mini wrote: »

That averages 22-23mpg. Most people would have more efficient cars than that.

I can do it return for €40, which still isn't poor enough to entice me onto the bus I'm afraid.

No it doesn't.

167.9p per litre(when I went down last), 320miles = 27.5 mpg.

To get to Cork and back you would have to be driving a diesel car that will get 58mpg combined including motorway(120km/h) and city centre traffic, so I think you got both figures badly wrong.

bk

Well this is absolutely fantastic news for people traveling between Dublin and Cork.

In particular I'm delighted to see so many late night/early morning services. IR and BE failed miserably in this area with no services ex Cork after 8:30. It was a disgrace that there were no such services between our two largest cities.

I have to laugh at some of the hatred and disbelief been shown on this thread. It seems clear that some people are afraid of all this new competition.

And maybe reducing the normal services too much??

I'm sure Aircoach are well aware of the number of people who board at intermediate stops and have now seen how many people were using their direct services over the last month. I assume they saw a healthy increase in numbers on the direct route and have made probably a relatively low risk gamble of switching buses from stopping service to the direct service, knowing they would lose customers on the stopping service but will make up for it with increased customers on the direct service, as they steal customers from Bus Eireann (slower) and Irish Rail (much more expensive). Sounds like a reasonable strategy to me.

Also don't forget, less fuel used on these new direct services, so more savings there.

Yes, it seems BE are being left with the stopping service and DSP passengers. I wonder if BE see this as their future. It kind of looks that way, their recent coach purchase looks more suited to a stopping service then suited to competition with the direct services (no on-board toilets).

I would dispute that private operators can't operate stopping services too. Citylink do to Galway, with their bi-hourly stopping service in addition to their hourly direct service. I assume Aircoach has just decided that there is more money to be made by moving buses and drivers over to the direct service. But perhaps they will again increase the numbers of the stopping service as they get new buses and drivers.

kieran4003 wrote:

Aircoach are engaged in the classic monopoly strategy of preventing entry to keep monopoly power. ...
Monopolies do this regardless of how loss making it is.

I have to laugh at people calling Aircoach a "monopoly". What monopoly is there when you have to compete with car, BE, IR and hopefully soon GoBus.

Doesn't sound much like a monopoly to me, more like healthy competition.

kieran4003 wrote:

There is certainly nowhere near the demand to sustain that level of service but they must be absolutely petrified of Go Bus coming in, operating a superior service and taking over.

Why isn't there demand for such a service?

If there is demand for an almost hourly 24 hour Bus Eireann service to Belfast, why wouldn't there be the same market to Cork?

The total capacity of Aircoach direct services is now about 850 people per day. To put that in context, just one Irish Rail Mark4 Intercity has a seated capacity of 422 passengers. It seems to me it shouldn't be too hard to fill seats, but taking customers from IR and BE services, maybe even some from the car.

I agree however that they really need to do a much better job with pr and advertising.

kieran4003 wrote:

At the moment however, Bus Eireann & Iarnrod Eireann are taking no notice of the new service as the bulk of the passengers using it are those using their old stopping service.

I'm not so sure about that, IR's new pricing policy (€20 one way to Cork if booked three days in advance) smells very much like a response to this.

kieran4003 wrote:

Bus Eireann are monitoring the situation though.

What exactly does that mean? What can BE even do if things go pear shaped?

My understanding is that the NTA will issue only two direct non stop hourly licenses per route. So if GoBus use their license, then BE won't be able to launch their own competing direct service. It will be the same as Galway, where BE can't really compete with the direct services and instead sort of badly did a deal with GoBus to sell tickets on GoBuses service.

Maybe they could do the same in Cork, partner with GoBus, maybe even leave GoBus use their bus station, but I can't see anything else they can do?

One point I'd like to make, everyone here seems to be assuming this new Aircoach service is in response to GoBus. While, yes we heard about the GoBus rumour here on boards first, looking at the license spreadsheet, it would seem Aircoach applied for their license about two months before GoBus. So it would seem Aircoach were always planning to launch.

I hope GoBus will also launch their service. While some of my Corkonian friends living in Dublin have already switched from rail to bus since this new service launched. Others are still sticking to rail, due to the lack of on-board toilet and also helped by the new cheaper IR tickets. But they would definitely switch if GoBus launched with toilets on-board.

n97 mini wrote: »

I can do it return for €40, which still isn't poor enough to entice me onto the bus I'm afraid.

And what about tolls? You are more looking at €60 for most people.

It probably will attract at least some drivers. One of my friends has already switched from car to Aircoach. But it isn't for everyone.

One thing, pity there is no service between 19:00 and 01:00 ex Cork. I think it could do with a 21:00 service between there.

I also wonder how are they going to handle coach parking space when both the direct and stopping services clash (e.g. 17:00 and 19:00 ex Dublin Westmoreland St).

One thing that will be interesting if GoBus launch, is what bus stop they will use. Their current Galway bus stop on the quays isn't a great location, being very exposed, with no shops/cafe near by. Aircoachs Westmoreland St stop is much nicer location.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that, IR's new pricing policy (€20 one way to Cork if booked three days in advance) smells very much like a response to this.

For about the umpteenth time (I note you keep ignoring this), it probably has far more to do with the appointment of a new Commercial Director (from outside the company) at IE.

The IE sale is across the entire network (and not just Dublin/Cork) and would have required some planning in advance. Given no one knew about the planned Aircoach service until they announced it, I find it difficult to believe that it is anything other than a new initiative from the Commercial Director.

bk wrote: »

One thing that will be interesting if GoBus launch, is what bus stop they will use. Their current Galway bus stop on the quays isn't a great location, being very exposed, with no shops/cafe near by. Aircoachs Westmoreland St stop is much nicer location.

It may be "nicer" but it is an absolute disgrace that we see long distance coaches picking up at a long standing (and busy) Dublin Bus stop. It is frankly not a safe situation at all, and the sooner Aircoach are moved from there to somewhere where a coach can dwell without blocking other services the better.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

For about the umpteenth time (I note you keep ignoring this), it probably has far more to do with the appointment of a new Commercial Director (from outside the company) at IE.

And I don't know why you keep going on about this Commercial Director, as if it should mean something.

Personally I think it is quiet shocking that IR management are so inept that they have to bring in an outside person to fill this role. Surely it shouldn't be too hard for IR management to look around them, see the competition they face and come up with a plan on how to respond.

Anyway is it not irrelevant that this commercial director is an external person, as now is s/he not an IR employee, now that IR has hired him?

Also the recent consulatants report into intercity rail transport recommended this very system, so it may not have come from a commercial director.

lxflyer wrote: »

The IE sale is across the entire network (and not just Dublin/Cork) and would have required some planning in advance. Given no one knew about the planned Aircoach service until they announced it, I find it difficult to believe that it is anything other than a new initiative from the Commercial Director.

Actually the Aircoach license was issued and public knowledge (we just didn't notice here on boards) since early February, you could see it on the NTA license site.

Also there is every possibility that they had some heads up from the NTA on what was coming down the line.

As for the nationwide aspect, well they are suffering from the same competition on much of their network already, with similar express services to Galway, Limerick, Belfast, etc. now running.

I'm not saying it is just a direct response to the new Aircoach service, but rather a response to all this new competition from the private coach companies on multiple roots.

Whatever way you try to spin it, the last 2 months have brought fantastic news for the Cork to Dublin Traveler:

- Fast, cheap, hourly bus services
- Late night/early morning services
- Cheaper train tickets

It is very good news and shows why competition works and is good for most people.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

And I don't know why you keep going on about this Commercial Director, as if it should mean something.

Personally I think it is quiet shocking that IR management are so inept that they have to bring in an outside person to fill this role. Surely it shouldn't be too hard for IR management to look around them, see the competition they face and come up with a plan on how to respond.

Anyway is it not irrelevant that this commercial director is an external person, as now is s/he not an IR employee, now that IR has hired him?

Also the recent consulatants report into intercity rail transport recommended this very system, so it may not have come from a commercial director.

The reason I keep mentioning it, and the reason it is relevant, is because at last someone with some commercial experience outside Irish Rail has been appointed. He will not be tainted with the same mentality that unfortunately many internal IE managers have been, and will hopefully bring a breath of badly fresh air to this aspect of the company.

You clearly have not had many dealings directly with some (and I do stress some) Irish Rail managers over the years. If you had, you would realise the relevance of this.

bk wrote: »

Actually the Aircoach license was issued and public knowledge (we just didn't notice here on boards) since early February, you could see it on the NTA license site.

Also there is every possibility that they had some heads up from the NTA on what was coming down the line.

As for the nationwide aspect, well they are suffering from the same competition on much of their network already, with similar express services to Galway, Limerick, Belfast, etc. now running.

I'm not saying it is just a direct response to the new Aircoach service, but rather a response to all this new competition from the private coach companies on multiple roots.

Whatever way you try to spin it, the last 2 months have brought fantastic news for the Cork to Dublin Traveler:

- Fast, cheap, hourly bus services
- Late night/early morning services
- Cheaper train tickets

It is very good news and shows why competition works and is good for most people.

I'm not trying to spin anything. I just felt you were reading too much into it, as your original post did suggest it was a direct response to the new Aircoach service, which, I suspect, is not the case, but rather a change in strategy.

And for clarity I too welcome all the new services (as I did when they were announced) - it offers choice and that is only good for the consumer.

foggy_lad

People should remember that this IR sale is just that, A Sale and it will come to an end soon enough. The normal prices are still the same for their services so nothing has really changed.

dowlingm

bk:

Last week you told us that Aircoach would happily serve regional towns if only they would be given route licences to do so.
This week you tell us that regional towns and DSP customers Aircoach serve now don't make Aircoach enough coin but never fear BE will pick up the culchies, junkies, grannies and students.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's what people expected from "competition".

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

Last week you told us that Aircoach would happily serve regional towns if only they would be given route licences to do so.

Please give a quote or link to where I said that?

Because I didn't say that. My position is very straight forward:

- Where a private operator is willing to operate a route with no subsidy, they should be allowed to do so within certain conditions and rules laid out by the NTA (e.g. frequency of service, schedule, quality of buses, etc.)

- Where no private operator is willing to operate a service (due to it not being profitable enough), but it is deemed socially necessary to service a particular route, then the route should be put out to tender, with the government offering to partly subsidise it. It would then be open to both BE, IR and private operators to bid on the route and the lowest bidder (again within the license conditions of frequency, etc.) should get the route.

The Aircoach situation is quiet clear. They had two similar routes, they found one route to be more profitable then the other and they have now shifted buses and drivers to the more profitable route.

It doesn't mean that the stopping service isn't profitable, just not as profitable and it also doesn't mean that in time, Aircoach mightn't get new buses and drivers and increase frequency on the stopping service again.

While private companies are happy to operate profitable routes, obviously. They also don't have unlimited money up fornt and it takes time and money to get new buses and drivers. So obviously a private company is going to use it's limited resources where they make the most money.

The DSP situation has nothing to do with Aircoach, rather it has to do with the Department of Transport and Dept of Finance and the DFSA deciding to block DSP being introduced on all new public transport. This will also effect BE if they launch any new routes and is already effecting DB (see the 747).

Aircoach have simply decided that they will make more money selling tickets on the direct route then getting DSP payments on an indirect route. Seems like a perfectly reasonable business decision to me, specially as DSP people can get on the train for free, so that is hard for the bus companies to compete with. I'm sure they would take DSP on thier direct routes if they were allowed.

This is more an issue of how badly the DSP is broken and how badly it needs to be fixed. If you think about it the current situation is crazy. A DSP person can get an €80 ticket for free between Cork and Dublin, but not a €22 ticket. Thus it costs us, the taxpayer more.

I'm of the opinion that the DSP should be capped at something like €20 - €25 return for intercity journeys and should be open to BE, IR and all the private companies and that the full ticket price is paid for each ticket bought, rather then a general subvention.

This way a person could decide to get a BE/Aircoach bus free, or pay the extra €60 to take the train. This would be fairer to all the transport companies and would likely cost the tax payer less, while continuing to enable the heat of the DSP scheme, to allow the elderly and other persons to continue to be a constructive part of society.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

The DSP situation has nothing to do with Aircoach, rather it has to do with the Department of Transport and Dept of Finance and the DFSA deciding to block DSP being introduced on all new public transport. This will also effect BE if they launch any new routes and is already effecting DB (see the 747).

As I pointed out before here, the 747 has never been covered by the Free Travel Scheme. There has been no change with regard to DB.

At least check your facts before posting statements such as this.

DB, BE and IE all receive lump sum amounts that are capped from the DFSA. They do not get reimbursed for each individual user.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

As I pointed out before here, the 747 has never been covered by the Free Travel Scheme. There has been no change with regard to DB.

At least check your facts before posting statements such as this.

DB, BE and IE all receive lump sum amounts that are capped from the DFSA. They do not get reimbursed for each individual user.

Hmm, I never said it did, please link or quote where I said it did. Checking your facts goes both ways you know?

Yes, the 747 never has had free travel, since DB and the Dept were never able to come to agreement on how much. The same applies to all new routes since roughly 2009. That is my point and is factually correct. If DB want to start up any sort of non standard route like the 747, they face the same problems as Aircoach and others do now.

BTW nice job in avoiding all the other issues I raise.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Hmm, I never said it did, please link or quote where I said it did. Checking your facts goes both ways you know?

Yes, the 747 never has had free travel, since DB and the Dept were never able to come to agreement on how much. The same applies to all new routes since roughly 2009. That is my point and is factually correct. If DB want to start up any sort of non standard route like the 747, they face the same problems as Aircoach and others do now.

BTW nice job in avoiding all the other issues I raise.

I don't believe it's my job to respond to every point you raise? No need for a smug statement such as the last one.

I specifically raised it because the 747 nor the Airport Coach Service that preceded it were never covered by the free travel scheme. It is not a recent issue. I have timetables from the 1960s and 1970s that show the same situation prevailed back in the day of CIE Dublin City Services.

Your post certainly suggested this was a recent issue.

LeftBlank

bk wrote: »

The Aircoach situation is quiet clear. They had two similar routes, they found one route to be more profitable then the other

I sincerely doubt that Aircoach are turning any profit on the express service yet. They may do in future, but they may not. I do agree that this move is to try and stave off competition on the express service.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't believe it's my job to respond to every point you raise? No need for a smug statement such as the last one.

Two posts in a row now have accused me of making statements that I clearly did not make.

You are the one making snarky comments, telling me:

lxflyer wrote:

At least check your facts before posting statements such as this

I always check my facts before posting to the best of my ability, far more so then most people on boards and I always admit when I make a mistake. But this was not the case in either of these posts.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

I also wonder how are they going to handle coach parking space when both the direct and stopping services clash (e.g. 17:00 and 19:00 ex Dublin Westmoreland St).

One thing that will be interesting if GoBus launch, is what bus stop they will use. Their current Galway bus stop on the quays isn't a great location, being very exposed, with no shops/cafe near by. Aircoachs Westmoreland St stop is much nicer location.

It's quite a damning indictment of NTA policy and it's senior management that not one of them could take a ramble along to Westmoreland St in order to assess the fruits of their endeavours.

The NTA's non-interest now imposes a significantly increased level of risk to all users,public and staff,of Public Transport on Westmoreland St.

The answer is alarmingly simple,seperate the City Services from the Coach Services.

I am now of the belief that ALL Dublin Bus routes should by-pass the street,and the stops thus freed up then be allocated to whatever Coach Services are there.

Spread them out for SAFETY.

If,on the other hand,the NTA and the respective responsible authorities cannot see the need for immediate action,then lets just wait for the,now inevitable serious,accident....:mad:

BenShermin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am now of the belief that ALL Dublin Bus routes should by-pass the street,and the stops thus freed up then be allocated to whatever Coach Services are there.

Can't agree with this at all, I know it's childish, but Dublin Bus were stopping on Westmorland Street a long time before the coach operators came in, why should they move? It would also lead to an unreasonable gap in bus stops for cross city services, for example the 46a wouldn't have a stop between Suffolk Street and Upper O'Connell Street, this would only lead to more overcrowding at Suffolk Street imo and we all know the H&S problems already there! It also takes some of the value and convience away from the city centre fare.

A more simplistic solution, albiet a stop-gap measure would be to re-arrange the bus stops on Aston Quay to make room for the intercity coaches. I'll refer to the bus stop letters to on this map to explain.

To start, when the 79/a service changes to cross city under Network Direct, there is no need for it to stop at bus stop AE anymore, move it to stop AC where the 145 stops (this offers improved options to Heuston).

Move the 25, 25a, 25b bus stop AJ to stop CE on Westmorland Street, this stop is only used by Lucan corridor expressos at the moment and could well handle the route 25 buses, (this offers improved options for Lucan corridor users).

Merge the 51d, 69, 69x bus stop AD with stop AF or AG, at an average of only one bus an hour between the routes there's no need for these buses to have their own stop on Aston Quay.

And there you have it, with a tiny bit of a shuffle you have three bus stops cleared up for the private intercity coaches to dwell. Before Network Direct is wasn't odd to see seven or eight double decker buses parked up in this strech so I see no safety issue. Granted it doesn't solve Aircoaches to Dublin Airport stopping on Westmorland Street nor the Stena Line Mortons coach, but it does ease a lot of the pressure!

devnull

With regards to Suffolk Street this problem could easily be improved by a better distribution of bus services

there is simply too many Dublin Bus services going down that street with the distribution of buses between the two stops by Dublin Bus a very large part of the problem, something that is under the control of Dublin Bus

For example even now, well outside peak, I can see:

Suffolk Street Stop NK (Nearest to Aircoach/City Tours Stop)
Serves 7b 7d 11 14 15 15a 15b 37 38 38a 38b 39 39a 46a 46e 70 116 118 140 142 145
22 Buses in the next hour on RTPI.

Suffolk Street Stop NJ (Nearest Grafton Street)
Serves 25 25a 25b 25x 32x 41x 66x 67x 84x
4 Buses in the next hour on RPTI.

The distribution of those two stops is quite frankly a joke, you have all of the high frequency routes on the stop that is nearest to the Aircoach and Tours stop, with all of the Xpresso services that run limited times a day on the other stop where there is more room. It's obvious a better balance needs to be struck, and with or without tours or coach services there will still be a problem.

SandyfordGuy

How about we bring this thread back on topic.

The new flyer for the Aircoach service drops most mentions of the indirect service, surely a clue that the days on the other services could be quite numbered.

http://www.aircoach.ie/media/Cork%20120509.pdf

devnull

I doubt there is enough trade for intermediate passengers to make a service viable on their own apart from on a few occasions, I'd say previously before the changes end to end and intermediate passengers made many services viable, but there is not much money to be made, rather more to be lost if the end to end are took out of the intermediate services.