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Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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    #122
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    fluorescence wrote: »
    I didn't say it should affect our laws. What I was trying to say is that these same people would be horrified and disgusted if I didn't follow common practise there. Whereas when they come here, we ask only a very minor thing in comparison (take off the veil for a photo as opposed to wear a veil the entire time you are in the country).

    What purpose does it serve to photograph them without the veil, it's not how they normally look, for id purposes it's better to leave it on imo.


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    #123
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I fail to see the big deal. They're allowed wear a scarf for the passport.....its not made of human flesh torn from a sacrifical victim....


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    #124
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Ok I'm going to start a new church today. It's called the Church of Fluorescence, and as a part of our beliefs, we are required to wear a flotation ring around our faces (so that the face is framed in the middle) at all times.

    Since head coverings for religious reasons are allowed, should members of my church be prosecuted just because our religious beliefs are stupid? If so, who decides what's allowed and what's not? And if we're allowed to wear them, what's to stop anyone making up a religion so that they can have less-effective passport photos?

    Are you meant to wear it everytime you are outside? If so then that is a part of your identity. You dont ask people to shave off their beards before taking a passport photo do you?

    Islam is a major world religion followed by over a fifth of the world's population. You cannot undermine them.


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    #125
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Yet would you not agree that this is a farce and by all rights I should be told to stop taking the piss and get my photo taken properly? It is a made up church, after all.

    I'm not sure if you are saying you would do it for the laugh, I'm sure you would have to provide proof of your religion or something, I have no idea how that would work.


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    #126
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    hondasam wrote: »
    What purpose does it serve to photograph them without the veil, it's not how they normally look, for id purposes it's better to leave it on imo.

    That is true and I do actually agree with you. I don't have an issue with them wearing a head-covering in photos (obviously so long as it's not a full face one). I do have a problem with there being a different set of rules for different people. That's not equality at work, it's the seeds of segregation.
    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Are you meant to wear it everytime you are outside? If so then that is a part of your identity. You dont ask people to shave off their beards before taking a passport photo do you?

    Islam is a major world religion followed by over a fifth of the world's population. You cannot undermine them.

    Yes. My people must wear their flotation device at all times. This is because we believe the wrath of Poseidon could strike at any moment, flooding the earth, and that we chosen ones will be saved thanks to the religious headgear we wear.

    Asking us to take it off would mean we will be swept away with the other heathons when the end of the world comes.


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    #127
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    ^so you just answered your own question there. If its that important to you that you wear it everywhere you go, then that is a part of your identity and thats how one would identify you so you shouldn't be asked to take it off for your identification photo.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it isn't. Someone can have a perfectly rational reason for objecting to allowing certain beliefs and cultural practices. It doesn't have to be driven by fear or ignorance.

    Those are your personal believes but at the same time you are disrespecting the believes of the person.

    If you believe Islam is ridiculous, thats your personal believe but if you start undermining and disrespecting muslims because of your belief them i'm afraid to say that is what xenophia is.


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    #128
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    If you believe Islam is ridiculous, thats your personal believe but if you start undermining and disrespecting muslims because of your belief them i'm afraid to say that is what xenophia is.

    No, I'm afraid that's not what xenophobia is. We are simply not obliged to respect the beliefs of anyone. That is different from respecting someone's right to hold certain beliefs.


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    #129
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    hondasam wrote: »
    I thought it was just the hijab, that does not cover the face.

    Indeed. But in my line of work I often see passports and there are plenty of Muslim woman wearing the full veil.
    The article says no woman wearing the full veil had been asked to remove it for the photo, which is kind of confusing


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    #130
    Nothingbetter2d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    I'll join this religion with you :D

    don't its a tarp ;) Flouresence will probably brain wash ya into a mass suicide :D


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    #131
    Glico Man
    Registered Users Posts: 8,279 ✭✭✭Glico Man


    Anyone else remember the Austrian pastafarian who fought for 3 years for the right to wear a pasta strainer on his head for his driving license picture?

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54049000/jpg/_54049868_hl_fuehrerschein_110712.jpg


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    #132
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    fluorescence wrote: »
    That is true and I do actually agree with you. I don't have an issue with them wearing a head-covering in photos (obviously so long as it's not a full face one). I do have a problem with there being a different set of rules for different people. That's not equality at work, it's the seeds of segregation.

    I would not agree to the full face being covered either. I would be one to promote while in Rome etc but for this particular instance I feel they should be allowed wear the jihab.
    That's not to say I agree with having different rules for different religions or anything else, I believe in equality as well.


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    #133
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    The problem is, people think they have the right not to be offended - no such right exists. The Irish state does not interfere with peoples religious practices, but in a case where a photo has to be taken for a state document, it is perfectly reasonable that a woman be asked to make herself visible. Thia may offend or upset her but tbh, thats tough ****e.


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    #134
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    ^so you just answered your own question there. If its that important to you that you wear it everywhere you go, then that is a part of your identity and thats how one would identify you so you shouldn't be asked to take it off for your identification photo.

    Yes, but I guarantee the Powers That Be would declare this is a pisstake because it doesn't have a tradition spanning thousands of years. So, either they declare my religion is stupid and doesn't count (in which case, who decides what is valid??) or they allow it and suddenly everyone has wonky passport photos because there's 25 billion new religions that require various facial garb.

    Where do we draw the line? Why can't people see that having different rules for different groups of people is not the way to go?


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    #135
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, I'm afraid that's not what xenophobia is. We are simply not obliged to respect the beliefs of anyone. That is different from respecting someone's right to hold certain beliefs.

    You are discriminating against a group of people simply because their belives do not conform to your own. What do you call that?


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    #136
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    You are discriminating against a group of people simply because their belives do not conform to your own. What do you call that?

    I'm not discriminating against anyone I'm afraid. I'm calling for equality for all, irrespective of their religion.


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    #137
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Yes, but I guarantee the Powers That Be would declare this is a pisstake because it doesn't have a tradition spanning thousands of years. So, either they declare my religion is stupid and doesn't count (in which case, who decides what is valid??) or they allow it and suddenly everyone has wonky passport photos because there's 25 billion new religions that require various facial garb.

    Where do we draw the line? Why can't people see that having different rules for different groups of people is not the way to go?
    More than a fifth of the word's population is muslim. You cannot antagonise such a large population of people. Especially when you hold many important political and economic interests with these countries.


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    #138
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Nothingbetter2d wrote: »
    don't its a tarp ;) Flouresence will probably brain wash ya into a mass suicide :D

    Why are you so ignorant about my religious beliefs?? :P


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    #139
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm not discriminating against anyone I'm afraid. I'm calling for equality for all, irrespective of their religion.

    In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.


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    #140
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    You photograph them without the veil and if the Garda is in doubt he makes them take the thing off. If that's unreasonable on some strict religious grounds then Western society isn't for you.


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    #141
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.

    No, it's not discrimination. If I objected to Muslim men hitting their wives, because the Qur'an permits it, would that be discrimination?


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    #142
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.
    Wut?


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    #143
    FTGFOP
    Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭FTGFOP


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    More than a fifth of the word's population is muslim. You cannot antagonise such a large population of people. Especially when you hold many important political and economic interests with these countries.

    I don't have a problem with the hijab. Do you think a person should be allowed to wear a hairband in their photo? The regulations state it's not allowed. Would you be happy to see this changed?


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    #144
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    In callling for this equality you are stripping people of their individual identity that is very important to them. That is discrimination.

    Ok, what if you had an item of clothing (say, a baseball hat) that meant the world to you. It has nothing to do with a religious or cultural rule, it's just this hat belonged to someone you loved dearly who died. Now you wear it all day everyday in their memory.

    Hats aren't allowed. No exceptions. Is your identity being compromised? I mean, it's not like you'll ever be seen without the hat. Would that be taken into account? No. No it would not. No hats, no exceptions/


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    #145
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Indeed. But in my line of work I often see passports and there are plenty of Muslim woman wearing the full veil.
    The article says no woman wearing the full veil had been asked to remove it for the photo, which is kind of confusing

    Are they not allowed wear the full veil for their own countries passport?
    I do not know if they would be asked to remove it here for the GNIB card but I would say they would have to. Open to correction.
    The incidents did not involve women wearing the niqab or full-face veil.

    I'm taking this to mean they will remove these for the photograph, could be totally wrong but that's the way I read it.


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    #146
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    GET YOUR HAIR OUT

    GET YOUR HAIR OUT

    GET-YOUR-HAIR-OUT-FOR-THE-LADS

    GE-EH-EH-EH-EH-ET YOUR HAIR OUT!


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    #147
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it's not discrimination. If I objected to Muslim men hitting their wives, because the Qur'an permits it, would that be discrimination?

    Firstly a lot of your believes about Islam seem to be very misinformed and secondly you're not merely objecting but you are forcing them to take off their veil which for them is an integral part of their identity.


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    #148
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    hondasam wrote: »
    I'm taking this to mean they will remove these for the photograph, could be totally wrong but that's the way I read it.

    That was how I read it as well.


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    #149
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    AFAIK there's NO religious imperitave to wear a hijab. It's a cultural thing. Therefore there are no grounds for people to be exempted from removing it.

    That said, as long as their face is visible I see no reason for them to Remove it.


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    #150
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Firstly a lot of your believes about Islam seem to be very misinformed and secondly you're not merely objecting but you are forcing them to take off their veil which for them is an integral part of their identity.

    they take off the fcuking veil all the time
    taking it off IN PRIVATE for 5 mins to take a photo is not part of their identity. and for you to continue to insist that it is, is as much an insult to them as anyone else


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    #151
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Firstly a lot of your believes about Islam seem to be very misinformed and secondly you're not merely objecting but you are forcing them to take off their veil which for them is an integral part of their identity.

    You didn't answer my question. I will ask it again.

    If I objected to Muslim men hitting their wives, because the Qur'an permits it, would that be discrimination?

    And if you think I am misinformed, then here is a direct quote from the Qur'an: http://quran.com/4/34


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