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Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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12467…14

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    #92
    Unavailable for Comment
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Unavailable for Comment


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    Answer my question first?

    Ok. you wouldn't be allowed but surely the repressive nature of some countries is not a reason for Ireland to become more repressive.


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    #93
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that its teor problem.
    People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.

    I asked you a question earlier, and you still haven't responded. I will ask again.

    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?


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    #94
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    Would an Orthodox Jewish woman have to remove her wig for her photo I.D? Would an Orthodox Jewish man have to remove his yarmulke, or a Sikh his turban?

    Clearly not, according to DFA. As the hijab is a hair covering and not a face covering they are entitled to wear it. I can't see what the fuss is all about.


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    #95
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    For them it is akin to that. If you believe thats ridiculous, its your believe. People have a right for their identity to be respected.

    If I claimed tomorrow to be a new convert to Islam and wandered into a Garda station to get my new passport application signed and stamped (along with my new picture of myself in a hijab), they would laugh me out of the place and tell me to get a "proper" picture that adheres to the regulations.

    Just because these women come from another culture, doesn't mean they should have an automatic immunity to our regulations when they come here.


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    #96
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    irelandrover wrote: »
    Why? If they believe that their hair is intimate then what is the difference?

    If you go to a nudist resort you'll have to go in the nip. Just to expand on your point.


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    #97
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I asked you a question earlier, and you still haven't responded. I will ask again.

    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?

    Murder is against the law of the land, wearing a hair covering isn't.


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    #98
    Unavailable for Comment
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Unavailable for Comment


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?

    That's a ridiculous comparison.


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    #99
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    irelandrover wrote: »
    Why? If they believe that their hair is intimate then what is the difference?

    They don't believe it's intimate. They believe that covering it is modest. Muslim women don't equate the hair on their heads to their girly bits.

    This is supposed to be a secular state, and personally I think anyone's religious perferences/dictates should take second place to that.


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    #100
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I asked you a question earlier, and you still haven't responded. I will ask again.

    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?

    No we shouldn't. When the religious freedom imposes on other people it should not be tolerated. the wearing of a headscarf for a photo does not impose on anyone else.


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    #101
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    This is something I dont get, how can any right minded person think that having people with full face coverings in a passport photo is a good idea? Just because it has been accepted practice up to know does not mean the Irish state should continue to unquestioningly tow the line - IT MAKES NO SENSE AND COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF AN ID PHOTO. Why bother with the photo at all? Scrap the whole photo system and any time a garda or immigration officer stops a woman in full headgear, bring them to the nearest station and do the biometric checks and then send her on her way. Is that more acceptable?

    I thought it was just the hijab, that does not cover the face.


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    #102
    Gevie Stee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Gevie Stee


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that is their problem.
    People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.

    If they don't respect us in their country, why should Ireland always be the ones to cower to everyone elses demands.
    I wouldnt go to those countries because I don't like the way they treat women, same way if they don't like our rules noones stopping them from leaving.
    Religion cannot be used as an excuse to be treated different.


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    #103
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    This is something I dont get, how can any right minded person think that having people with full face coverings in a passport photo is a good idea? Just because it has been accepted practice up to know does not mean the Irish state should continue to unquestioningly tow the line - IT MAKES NO SENSE AND COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF AN ID PHOTO. Why bother with the photo at all? Scrap the whole photo system and any time a garda or immigration officer stops a woman in full headgear, bring them to the nearest station and do the biometric checks and then send her on her way. Is that more acceptable?

    I have fairly short hair on my passport photo and was very young. Now im much older and have much longer hair too. I look ver different from what i do on my passport photo. The notion that the photo id is the immediate proof of identification is falacious.
    And why should the garda have the right to stop random people on the street and do identity checks on them in the first place.


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    #104
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?

    Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that is their problem.
    People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.
    The reasoning behind it is practicality - and it's for a few seconds. Why are you pretending the intent behind it is crushing religious freedom? And xenophobia? Again, you're undermining the experiences of those who actually experience same.


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    #105
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    hondasam wrote: »
    I thought it was just the hijab, that does not cover the face.

    :D You and your fancy facts and stuff and reading the links in the OP! Cheek of you.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #106
    Laneyh
    Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Laneyh


    They're entitled to query the policy as the hijab doesn't conceal the face so
    I could see why they might ask why they need to remove it

    However I know for passport photos and visa applications there are fairly strict guidelines in terms of your ears and side of face being visible and that kind of thing. Whomever is taking the photos is going to want a situation where they're least likely to have to retake the photo.

    If a nun were asked to remove her veil for the photo I doubt we'd have heard about it.
    Possibly because she wouldn't query it or possibly because it wouldn't cause such a knee jerk reaction from both the PC gone mad and the we're a bunch of intolerant sods brigades.

    There's every chance that the majority of women asked removed the hijab without hesitation. A small number queried the neccessity for it and
    the gardai have already responded to the query.

    According to all involved its been handled sensitively and a resolution found.
    I don't think the gardai were doing it from a perspective of intolerance.

    We shouldn't be too quick to assume that we're in the wrong as a society or culturally insensitive

    By the same token we shouldn't be too quick to assume that particular communities or religious groups are always looking for special treatment.


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    #107
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Unavailable for Comment wrote: »
    That's a ridiculous comparison.

    It's not a comparison. The poster stated that we should respect people's religious beliefs. It is a held belief within Islam that apostasy should carry the punishment of death.

    You can't pick and choose where to apply your logic afraid. I'm 100% consistent with mine. Equal rights for everybody, irrespective of their religion. No exceptions.


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    #108
    MaxSteele
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭MaxSteele


    fluorescence wrote: »
    If I claimed tomorrow to be a new convert to Islam and wandered into a Garda station to get my new passport application signed and stamped (along with my new picture of myself in a hijab), they would laugh me out of the place and tell me to get a "proper" picture that adheres to the regulations.

    Just because these women come from another culture, doesn't mean they should have an automatic immunity to our regulations when they come here.

    Oh Fluorescence you can't say that, it's ignorant !! Religious beliefs (no matter how petty or draconian) are unquestionably superior to written Irish law.


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    #109
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    irelandrover wrote: »
    No we shouldn't. When the religious freedom imposes on other people it should not be tolerated. the wearing of a headscarf for a photo does not impose on anyone else.

    So someone should be allowed to wear a paddy cap and ear-muffs for the same ID, right?


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    #110
    MajorMax
    Registered Users Posts: 865 ✭✭✭MajorMax


    If I appear for an official photograph in my pirate costume, I'm a committed Pastafarian (Reformed), I would treat any attempt to remove my Parrot or eye patch as a breach of my religious rights


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    #111
    tigger123
    Registered Users Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭tigger123


    fluorescence wrote: »
    If I went to an arab country that required me by law to wear a hijab (or a niqab, which I think is the full face version), I'd have to wear it (end of) or leave the country. Here, we ask that they take it off for 5 seconds to have a photo taken and the rest of the time they can dress as they will. A big fuss was made and now they get to keep their hair coverings on for photos. Having one set of rules for them and another for everybody else is simply ridiculous, and hinders Ireland from becoming an egalitarian society.

    I've never understood this logic, why should the laws and customs in another country, thousands of miles away dictate or influence or laws and regulations here in the State? Either you believe they should have to remove their headdress or you don't. The laws and customs in another part of the world shouldn't influence this.
    fluorescence wrote: »
    Of course it is, because it suits them very well not to have to comply with the normal laws of the land.

    Why does it suit them to not comply with the laws?


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    #112
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Dudess wrote: »
    The reasoning behind it is practicality - and it's for a few seconds. Why are you pretending the intent behind it is crushing religious freedom? And xenophobia? Again, you're undermining the experiences of those who actually experience same.

    So undermining one's cultural and religious identity because it is very different to the ones of people here is not xenophobic?

    Does it have to be at the level of nazi germany for it to be considered xenophobic?


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    #113
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Ok I'm going to start a new church today. It's called the Church of Fluorescence, and as a part of our beliefs, we are required to wear a flotation ring around our faces (so that the face is framed in the middle) at all times.

    Since head coverings for religious reasons are allowed, should members of my church be persecuted just because our religious beliefs are stupid? If so, who decides what's allowed and what's not? And if we're allowed to wear them, what's to stop anyone making up a religion so that they can have less-effective passport photos?


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    #114
    Gevie Stee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Gevie Stee


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Ok I'm going to start a new church today. It's called the Church of Fluorescence, and as a part of our beliefs, we are required to wear a flotation ring around our faces (so that the face is framed in the middle) at all times.

    Since head coverings for religious reasons are allowed, should members of my church be prosecuted just because our religious beliefs are stupid? If so, who decides what's allowed and what's not? And if we're allowed to wear them, what's to stop anyone making up a religion so that they can have less-effective passport photos?

    I'll join this religion with you :D


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    #115
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Better get themselves tarted up and look the part for their photo then. :D


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    #116
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    fluorescence wrote: »
    If I claimed tomorrow to be a new convert to Islam and wandered into a Garda station to get my new passport application signed and stamped (along with my new picture of myself in a hijab), they would laugh me out of the place and tell me to get a "proper" picture that adheres to the regulations.
    Only head coverings worn for religious reasons are permitted

    They could not ask you to take it off.


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    #117
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    tigger123 wrote: »
    I've never understood this logic, why should the laws and customs in another country, thousands of miles away dictate or influence or laws and regulations here in the State? Either you believe they should have to remove their headdress or you don't. The laws and customs in another part of the world shouldn't influence this.

    I didn't say it should affect our laws. What I was trying to say is that these same people would be horrified and disgusted if I didn't follow common practise there. Whereas when they come here, we ask only a very minor thing in comparison (take off the veil for a photo as opposed to wear a veil the entire time you are in the country).
    tigger123 wrote: »
    Why does it suit them to not comply with the laws?

    Because it means they don't have to step outside their comfort zone for a minute or two.


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    #118
    FTGFOP
    Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭FTGFOP


    Unless regular head scarves, and other apparel that cover a similar amount of the hair and neck are permitted then it is a double standard.

    My 2c is that I don't mind that the hijab is worn for the photograph but I think it's bullshit that an atheist wouldn't be allowed to wear an equivalent covering.


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    #119
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    hondasam wrote: »
    They could not ask you to take it off.

    Yet would you not agree that this is a farce and by all rights I should be told to stop taking the piss and get my photo taken properly? It is a made up church, after all.


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    #120
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    So undermining one's cultural and religious identity because it is very different to the ones of people here is not xenophobic?

    No, it isn't. Someone can have a perfectly rational reason for objecting to allowing certain beliefs and cultural practices. It doesn't have to be driven by fear or ignorance.


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    #121
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So someone should be allowed to wear a paddy cap and ear-muffs for the same ID, right?

    Yes, they should.


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