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Shootings In France
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Look, he's dead and surely we can all agree that the world is a better place without him. What I want to know is: according to his own beliefs is he entitled to go to heaven? And, if he is, is there a way, according to his beliefs, that this can be stopped? I mean, let's not incentivise these terrible acts.
Where are the unified cries of condemnation from the Islamic leaders? Don't get me wrong, if such an act were committed by anybody else of a different religion in the name of their "god" I would expect that church's leaders to condemn the act straight away. The church leaders should immediately state that these acts are condemning the perpetrator to their version of hell. Obviously this matters not to the perpetrators themselves or their victims and families but if it puts one single person off performing such an act then surely it's worth it.
If it comes to it, desecrate the body. Some may find this distasteful but is it any more distasteful than holding a girl by the hair while you shoot her? Or leading thousands into camps for extermination?
I'm sure people will find my post racist but I'm fine with that. And I know that my comment of desecrating the body comes across like John Wayne in The Searchers. I have my own beliefs on what is right and what is pure evil and none of them involve a god. ANY god0 -
Have Christians been remarkably restrained considering what takes place in the Sudan, Nigeria East Timor and numerous individual attacks across the world for decades?
Interesting tangent. I'm not entirely familiar with the sectarian strife in these countries but if you'd like to cite a particular study I'd be happy to consider it. Also, if you read my statement you will see that I specifically mentioned Muslim folk in the EU and US.Or would you consider a retaliation by Christians on the Muslim community as a whole compeltly uncalled for and unforgivable, rather than something requiring "restraint"?
What now?Or, conversly, do you think they owe us an unbelievable amount given the prosperity they have come to have through technologies and medicines almost exclusivly brought to them by the US and a handful of others?
No, I don't.It was hard to know where to start picking apart this particular inane statement, so I just picked two obvious little bits.
My statement is no more inane than your rambling as above.0 -
TheIrishGrover wrote: »...........
Where are the unified cries of condemnation from the Islamic leaders? .........
Did you bother looking?0 -
Perhaps, and you may be right. However if this were without a shadow then we would see a similiar decline in, say, anti jewish sentiment in countries as far afield as Turkey and Pakistan.
The conflict between the Israeli's and Palestinians hasn't changed (in fact things have got worse). I wouldn't expect to see any changes in attitudes from either side, until both sides in that conflict have achieved peace.It is encouraging that OBL is no longer a hero for a large minority (bar in pakistan) but it is no more than that.
I disagree, discrediting of OBL and his group is a positive move in the right direction.Except I dont think these polls that prove you right all of a sudden exist.
There is a gallup poll from 2008:
Most Muslims 'desire democracy'
There are certainly multiple polls out there.Again, a trend does not mean the intolerance has or will suddenly disappear. You may have hopes for the future, that does not change the situation at present.
Again, I think it wrong to ignore trend altogether. We certainly shouldn't ignore things as they are now, but if things are showing improvement, there is no reason to ignore that either.And your opinion is Islam does not have a problem with tolerance and or violence, despite the significant statistical data?
No, there is certainly a minority who are intolerant.At what numbers would you start considering intolerance a "problem" in the Islamic community if 30% believe apostasy should now be punished with death does not somehow cut it?
Your poll showed the vast majority of Muslims had a negative view of an ethnic group based on nothing more than said ethnicity. You have a new definition of intolerance?
Its certainly a problem. I never said otherwise.Your really grasping at straws here. Show me a similiarly large and thorough poll that shows a massive shift in public opinion or accept that 6 year old evidence is not dead in sociology and that it is the most effective measure we have.
I have already shown some changes from the same source, since that poll was published.But not the levels of intolerance, particularly towards Jews (again NOT Israelis) which in fact got much worse. Which was what I argued at the start Islam had a problem with. OBL is at best tangental and at worst a complete red herring.
So OBL doesn't matter any more then. Odd, he seemed to be a big deal for the last 10 years or so. I would say change in regards to him are a big deal.
As Muslim attitudes towards Jews, I agree there appalling, but then the reverse attitude is hardly much better, and I don't see them improving as long there is a conflict between Israel and Palestine.0 -
An awfull lot of energy being typed out over what was basically a scumbag.
He was a petty criminal, considered violent, dubious employment record, most likely involved in the drugs trade.
Was refused entry to the forces because of his criminal record.
If he hadn't ended up a self proclaimed martyr for a religion he didn't practise or respect he would have had a bad end in the more "traditional" criminal world.
None of his friends/acquainteces were even aware he had religious convictions
Don't believe me? check out France2/TF1/LCI/BFM/Le Monde/Le Figaro/Liberation or any other french language site.
He is not alone, If I walk down any street I'll see more of his ilk.
This is France.
Monaco have policemen on every corner, we have scumbags.0 -
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TheIrishGrover wrote: »Where are the unified cries of condemnation from the Islamic leaders?
Here is one:
Fayyad: Stop Exploiting Palestinian Children for Terror
Something I very much agree with.0 -
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Toby Take a Bow wrote: »No, I wasn't. I was asking whether there may be a historical 'justification', whether flawed or not, for anti-Israeli (and and ignorant extension of this feeling towards Jews in general). How did Jews in the area tend to fair before the establishment of an Israeli state? Even if polls didn't exist asking these questions, you could make a fairly informed argument based on population figures in the area prior to the establishment of the state. I would wager that there would be extensive Jewish populations throughout the 'Islamic' world prior to WWII.
Its not hard to be "tolerant" of a tiny minority in your country. All you are arguing is that Israeli actions spread hate towards Jews throughout the Muslim world to the point where it is endemic. Leaving aside the equation of Jews and Israel, which shouldnt be done to begin with you have put your finger on another problem prevalient throughout the Muslim world by which issues 1000's of miles away "justify" actions in their own country and wherever else they find them.
By your logic Sudanese, Saudi Arabian and Indonesian actions towards Christians would be more than enough to justify near universal hatred of Muslims throughout Christian socieites.
That this pehonomona does not exist is yet another indication of Islams propensity for intolerance, unless of course you are good enough to remain quiet, politically and militarily powerless and ruthlessly discriminated against tiny minorities in vastly predominantly Muslim countries. Then, before Israel of course, they would be more than happy to demonstrate their vaunted tolerance.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »No, the figures you quoted were a small snapshot of particular groups of Muslims, which I was arguing was a dangerous thing to do.
Then look at the other poll I linked and the one Wess did. Both are based on massive geographical and population samples. Ive said this before, some are better, many are worse. None are "good" in so far as none have a massive majority that dont, say for example, have a negative attitude to "Jews" or "Westerners" or "Christians".Toby Take a Bow wrote: »I would see a marked difference in attitudes between organisations that exist solely for terrorist means (Al Qaeda) and those that at least style themselves (whether they actually are or not) as social organisations with a military arm. And, yeah, their opposition to Israel definitely plays a part, I would think, in the responses of those surveyed.
You may, but not many of those groups are shining beacons of modernity, tolerance and non violence, regarldess if they are "bad" as Al Qaeda or not.
Im so glad people are more comfortable with the near universal negative attitude Muslims hold towards the "other" because they can nod towards Israel as some sort of starting point.
Although I completly disagree that Israel is the sole cause of Muslim attitudes being so negative (indeed if you read the manifesto of groups like Al Qaeda you will find they themselves admit having many other "issues" with the West) even if it WERE the case, the unique propensity of Islam to spread these levels of hate over massive areas and populations is unique. Otherwise, like I said, you would be seeing far far more hatred of their own ideology throughout the world, justified by groups like the Janjaweed or official Sudanese policy.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »I would. Anders Breivik's nutjob Templar organisation could be considered a militant Christian organisation. You'd have to be completely ignorant of how little this group plays into Christianity in general and how extremists are not representatives of the whole, but sure why not.
Ah so Anders carried out his attacks in the name of Christianity, believing he would be rewarded for his actions in the after life? I was not aware of this, please could you link to a scource for this?
Regardless, if you believe this is a "touche" it is not. Everyone knows full well if one were to try and list the number of attacks motivated explicitly by and carried out in the name of Islam it would be far longer than one incident, and far more recent that a year ago.
A little perspective would not go astray in this regard.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »What large sects condone violence of the sort supported by Hezbollah or Al-Qaeda? That is, what leader of Sunni or Shia Islam supports these groups? Before you answer, remember the Ayatollah represents one branch of Shia Islam.
Leaving aside that this is hardly the point, it is irrelevant if sects do not explicitly embrace it if many individuals, as the polls clearly show, do.
Im also hardly an expert on Islamic theology, but Qutbism and Wahabism springs to mind. Any part that embraces takfir, clearly from the polls a siginifcant amount, cannot be considered "moderate" or "tolerant".
Many "leaders" of both branches support and denounce such groups. Its decentralisation means there are not many good ways of getting an informed opinion of the "correct" creed.
In this situation one must look at a more diffuse method of ascertaining legitimacy . . . Say for example if we had polls showing significant numbers of Muslims supporting the various policies/ methods. . . Hmmmm.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »
Ah anecdotal evidence! Fantastic.
These people spat on a girl, and attacked another woman? My god, they should snipe them too :rolleyes: Your losing all sense of proportion, this is ridiculous.
Even if you were to show me evidence of daily ultra orthodox Jewish attack in various locations, and far worse than spitting on someon, it would prove nothing more than that extremism exists elsewhere.
It would have absolutly no bearing on Islamic tolerance. And it would not be NEAR as pressing as issue given the numbers involved. If EVERY Jew believed attacking and killing civilians in the name of religion was acceptable it would not come CLOSE to the numbers which these percentages in the Muslim community represent.
Again, Judaism is not a major world religion, it is tiny.
You will also notice that polls of, say, American Jews shows that their Israeli brothers hate of Islam does not translate over the thousands of miles so they too feel justified in attacks and such. Compare and contrast that with the routine muslim response, where hate spreads throughout the Ummah, justified by "Israel Palestine" etc etc where ever it pops up. Another delightful little aspect of Islam that goes uncriticised by and large.0 -
Chuck Stone wrote: »Interesting tangent. I'm not entirely familiar with the sectarian strife in these countries but if you'd like to cite a particular study I'd be happy to consider it. Also, if you read my statement you will see that I specifically mentioned Muslim folk in the EU and US.
Not a tangent, its called an extrapolation. Applying your "reasoning" in a different situation to see if you would still agree with it.
If your not aware of East Timor or Darfur then wiki it.
If you dont know about them Im not surprised your opinion on international affairs is so... developed.Chuck Stone wrote: »What now?
Really cant make the question any more simple than that...Chuck Stone wrote: »No, I don't.
Im begining to see then, so your opinion is it takes restraint to not retaliate against an entire society based on the actions of said society, but this "karma" only applies one way, and only negativly. Do you even realise the dissonance you display in even such a simple idea?Chuck Stone wrote: »My statement is no more inane than your rambling as above.
No, you clearly just dont have the capacity to think through an idea. Very different than "rambling".0 -
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I nominate SamHarris for the Fox News Orange Alert prize for dedication to Islamophobic scaremongering. It's like every cliche strung together by a FreeRepublic bot.0
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. If you dont know about them Im not surprised your opinion on international affairs is so... developed.
It's not entirely my opinion. In fact I only really considered it after reading this piece in Foreign Affairs (the type of publication I'd imagine would, on the whole, echo your views).Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?
Stephen M. Walt.
I have deliberately selected "low-end" estimates for Muslim fatalities, so these figures (255000) present the "best case" for the United States.
Some degree of anti-Americanism may reflect ideology, distorted history, or a foreign government's attempt to shift blame onto others (a practice that all governments indulge in), but a lot of it is the inevitable result of policies that the American people have supported in the past.
walt.foreignpolicy.com0 -
So OBL doesn't matter any more then. Odd, he seemed to be a big deal for the last 10 years or so. I would say change in regards to him are a big deal.
As Muslim attitudes towards Jews, I agree there appalling, but then the reverse attitude is hardly much better, and I don't see them improving as long there is a conflict between Israel and Palestine.
He is symptomatic, attitudes matter much more than he ever will. If al Qaeda loses support it IS irrelevant in wider terms if people remain massivly intolerant, accepting of violence and merely dont have a banner as such to fight under.
Israeli attitude to Muslims is appaling, Jewish attitudes in a wider diaspora are not nearly as dangerously hateful.
But then this may be a geographical issue, the only other major JEwish group that good data is on is in the US, where the Muslim population, to, has a much more tolerant and peaceful attitude than even other Western Muslim groups.0 -
Its not hard to be "tolerant" of a tiny minority in your country.
Yes, it can be. Jews and Muslims in Europe, both today and in history, would be good examples of tiny minorities that the majority found very difficult to be tolerant towards. But you're ignoring the point that there may have been a period where attitudes shifted towards Jews.Then look at the other poll I linked and the one Wess did. Both are based on massive geographical and population samples. Ive said this before, some are better, many are worse. None are "good" in so far as none have a massive majority that dont, say for example, have a negative attitude to "Jews" or "Westerners" or "Christians".
I did, and quoted from it. My point regarding Israel's formation applies here, too. I'm not saying the viewpoint in the poll isn't based on ignorance. I would say it's actually based on tarring a whole religion due to the actions of a small minority, which is something like what's going on here.You may, but not many of those groups are shining beacons of modernity, tolerance and non violence, regarldess if they are "bad" as Al Qaeda or not.
Again, not my point.Although I completly disagree that Israel is the sole cause of Muslim attitudes being so negative (indeed if you read the manifesto of groups like Al Qaeda you will find they themselves admit having many other "issues" with the West) even if it WERE the case, the unique propensity of Islam to spread these levels of hate over massive areas and populations is unique. Otherwise, like I said, you would be seeing far far more hatred of their own ideology throughout the world, justified by groups like the Janjaweed or official Sudanese policy.
The Janjaweed had issues that were a lot more complex than a simple hatred of westerners thing. Issues such as land control and perceived persecution played a part, albeit with a strong dose of the former.Ah so Anders carried out his attacks in the name of Christianity, believing he would be rewarded for his actions in the after life? I was not aware of this, please could you link to a scource for this?
I'd only be quoting articles referring to alleged implications, which is apparently 'anecdotal' evidence, so I guess you wouldn't be interested. Do a quick google search. Again, you're missing my point: Implying that Anders was a Christian fundamentalist completely misses a whole range of ideology that was present in his worldview. And in doing so means we will replicate the same problems over and over again.Regardless, if you believe this is a "touche" it is not. Everyone knows full well if one were to try and list the number of attacks motivated explicitly by and carried out in the name of Islam it would be far longer than one incident, and far more recent that a year ago.
A little perspective would not go astray in this regard.
Everyone knows, eh? Someone posted earlier about the lack of terrorist atrocities associated with islamic extremism in Europe recently. But then, they had an 'artificial' cut off point. So, when do you begin? And, if you want to again misunderstand a complex situation with lots of different reasonings for 'religious' violence, do you include Northern Ireland in this list? I'd say that would sway the figures somewhat. But then, we know it was a lot more complex than that.Leaving aside that this is hardly the point, it is irrelevant if sects do not explicitly embrace it if many individuals, as the polls clearly show, do.
I was simply responding to your original post referring explicitly to sects supporting terrorism.Im also hardly an expert on Islamic theology, but Qutbism and Wahabism springs to mind. Any part that embraces takfir, clearly from the polls a siginifcant amount, cannot be considered "moderate" or "tolerant".
Definitely couldn't be considered moderate. But you original said major sects. Neither would be considered a major sect. But feel free to change the terms as you respond.These people spat on a girl, and attacked another woman? My god, they should snipe them too :rolleyes: Your losing all sense of proportion, this is ridiculous.
Not really. You asked for specific examples. I supplied them.Even if you were to show me evidence of daily ultra orthodox Jewish attack in various locations, and far worse than spitting on someon, it would prove nothing more than that extremism exists elsewhere.
Ah, so my 'anecdotal' evidence isn't satisfactory, but polls wouldn't prove anything anyway? But, yeah, my point would be that extremism does exist everywhere. And it's never a good idea to tar a whole group or religion with what the extremists get up to.0 -
He is symptomatic, attitudes matter much more than he ever will. If al Qaeda loses support it IS irrelevant in wider terms if people remain massivly intolerant, accepting of violence and merely dont have a banner as such to fight under.
Then there would be increase in support for other groups then, which I have have yet to see. So I would again disagree, as I have yet to see this other banner you speak of.Israeli attitude to Muslims is appaling, Jewish attitudes in a wider diaspora are not nearly as dangerously hateful.
I have no idea on the wider Jewish attitudes personally (should have said that earlier), and I haven't been able to find much either.0 -
Back during the cold war is was all ruskies this and pesky south american commies that, and the media fuelled the fear and hatred. Now it's all Islam this and middle easterners that and the media fuels the fear and hatred.
I wonder who's next.0 -
Back during the cold war is was all ruskies this and pesky south american commies that, and the media fuelled the fear and hatred. Now it's all Islam this and middle easterners that and the media fuels the fear and hatred.
I wonder who's next.
Paddys. Pasty faced drunken corrupt shower of shites. And yes, they are all the same. You PC Liberal Ivory tower livin middle class types just don't want to face the truth. Ye wouldn't be that smart if one moved next door to you.0 -
There really isn't enough love in the world!0
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Chuck Stone wrote: »It's not entirely my opinion. In fact I only really considered it after reading this piece in Foreign Affairs (the type of publication I'd imagine would, on the whole, echo your views).
Once again people chose to ignore the actual stated motivations of groups like al qaeda in an attempt to give them a legitimacy to Western morals that they dont have if you merely look at something as telling as, say, their manifesto.
Yes yes, as is often the case any deaths from, say, sancitons on Iraq are not blamed on the murederous dictator in charge or the 100's of thousands of iraqis who supported him, it is blamed on the US. The rest of the international community, including the arab states that lobbied most hard for the sanctions are forgiven and forgotten.
Or that the Somalian occupation was UN mandated to save muslim lives from starvation, even this got the support of many Islamic followers to kick the Americans out. Their wounded pride always takes presedence over potential human suffering. The fact the US prevented a genocide of Muslims in Kosovo whilst the rest of the world was content to do nothing, is also quickly forgotten.
Note to, that every death in Afghanistan or Iraq are placed on the US doorstep, despite the fact that the vast majority of deaths in both are a result of Muslim on Muslim violence (another example of their tolerance no doubt). That a Muslim can blow himself up in a market, killing dozens of other Muslims and the community then passes blame to another party is probably one of the reasons the behaviour continues unabated throughout the Islamic world.
Indeed, notice the author of this particular piece reflects many Muslim peoples views - their failure economically and technologically is blamed primarily on the West, again shown in the polls.
Further, their own wrongs are both completly forgiven by themselves and quickly forgotten, often denied and defended at the same time.
In no Muslim country do a majority believe the official story on 9 11. Again, look at the polls. This is not because they have evidence the rest of us dont, its because they have a "team" and that "team" can not do wrong either at home or abroad. If something DOES go wrong, it is because the Americans forced them to do it, or did it themselves. Or the Jews did.
It is motivated by a pathological inferiority complex, not reason based analysis of past wrongs.
They blame who they want, its not coincidence that the people they blame happen to also be militarily, economically and (most importantly) culturally completly dominant over them. Again, if it were different one would see China and Russia as the main "enemies" of Islam that repress and torture it on a scale the US wouldnt dream of.
But Muslim childeren or not attracted to Russian or Chinese culture or ideals on the scale they are to the US. When you think about it its very clear why they describe it as a clash of civilisations, to some this incursion is extremly threatening to their way of life.
If you look at some of the polls Wes or I put up you will find that 50% of Muslims believe nearly every international and major national incident is orchestrated in some way by the US. Again, an example of the self pitty and complete lack of self criticism. Again, very clearly not a rational point of view.
Untill they a majority begin to take responsibility for situations they themselves are in I have no doubt they will continue to blame the big dog for everything that goes wrong in their house. Unfortunatly any reason based evaluation of available evidence makes it a little more complex than that.0 -
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Once again people chose to ignore the actual stated motivations of groups like al qaeda in an attempt to give them a legitimacy to Western morals that they dont have if you merely look at something as telling as, say, their manifesto.
Yes yes, as is often the case any deaths from, say, sancitons on Iraq are not blamed on the murederous dictator in charge or the 100's of thousands of iraqis who supported him, it is blamed on the US. The rest of the international community, including the arab states that lobbied most hard for the sanctions are forgiven and forgotten.
Or that the Somalian occupation was UN mandated to save muslim lives from starvation, even this got the support of many Islamic followers to kick the Americans out. Their wounded pride always takes presedence over potential human suffering. The fact the US prevented a genocide of Muslims in Kosovo whilst the rest of the world was content to do nothing, is also quickly forgotten.
Note to, that every death in Afghanistan or Iraq are placed on the US doorstep, despite the fact that the vast majority of deaths in both are a result of Muslim on Muslim violence (another example of their tolerance no doubt). That a Muslim can blow himself up in a market, killing dozens of other Muslims and the community then passes blame to another party is probably one of the reasons the behaviour continues unabated throughout the Islamic world.
Indeed, notice the author of this particular piece reflects many Muslim peoples views - their failure economically and technologically is blamed primarily on the West, again shown in the polls.
Further, their own wrongs are both completly forgiven by themselves and quickly forgotten, often denied and defended at the same time.
In no Muslim country do a majority believe the official story on 9 11. Again, look at the polls. This is not because they have evidence the rest of us dont, its because they have a "team" and that "team" can not do wrong either at home or abroad. If something DOES go wrong, it is because the Americans forced them to do it, or did it themselves. Or the Jews did.
It is motivated by a pathological inferiority complex, not reason based analysis of past wrongs.
They blame who they want, its not coincidence that the people they blame happen to also be militarily, economically and (most importantly) culturally completly dominant over them. Again, if it were different one would see China and Russia as the main "enemies" of Islam that repress and torture it on a scale the US wouldnt dream of.
But Muslim childeren or not attracted to Russian or Chinese culture or ideals on the scale they are to the US. When you think about it its very clear why they describe it as a clash of civilisations, to some this incursion is extremly threatening to their way of life.
If you look at some of the polls Wes or I put up you will find that 50% of Muslims believe nearly every international and major national incident is orchestrated in some way by the US. Again, an example of the self pitty and complete lack of self criticism. Again, very clearly not a rational point of view.
Untill they a majority begin to take responsibility for situations they themselves are in I have no doubt they will continue to blame the big dog for everything that goes wrong in their house. Unfortunatly any reason based evaluation of available evidence makes it a little more complex than that.
OMG, do you ever stop? OK...I get the point as I hope many others do...please....0 -
Toby Take a Bow wrote: »Yes, it can be. Jews and Muslims in Europe, both today and in history, would be good examples of tiny minorities that the majority found very difficult to be tolerant towards. But you're ignoring the point that there may have been a period where attitudes shifted towards Jews.
Hardly, there have been many progroms throughout the middle easts past. Yes, so what your saying is that Israel is responsible for Muslims hatred for Jews througout the world? I am saying that firstly it is a piss poor excuse, secondly Islam is the one religion where this sense of self rightous outrage seems to seep throughout the community, justifying murders throughout the world, thirdly your ascertian that it began in the 1940's is entirelly false. It may be exasterbated following the states creation, however if you believe it is merely the treatment of Palestinians is the sole cause of the massive amounts of anti semetism your high. The fact that Palestinians are often treated as bad or worse by their Arab brothers is often ignored, the ethnic factor matters much more than Western supporters of Palestine should be comfortbale with.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »I did, and quoted from it. My point regarding Israel's formation applies here, too. I'm not saying the viewpoint in the poll isn't based on ignorance. I would say it's actually based on tarring a whole religion due to the actions of a small minority, which is something like what's going on here.
Next person that I have to say this to is going on a damn ignore list.
I have pointed out the vast differences within Islam about 5 times now. Read. More. Carefully.
It is not "tarring with one brush" to recognise those statistics do not represent an extremly tolerant society.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »The Janjaweed had issues that were a lot more complex than a simple hatred of westerners thing. Issues such as land control and perceived persecution played a part, albeit with a strong dose of the former.
I didnt say they were motivated by hatred of Westerners. They were motivated explicitly by racial hatred and belief in Islamic dominance over Christian. My point was that if one were able to do waht Islamic people seem more than comfortable doing and propogate a percieved wrong commited in one place untill all adherents of the faith feel they must retaliate, a similiar position taken by Christians would have an enormous amount of ammunition. That Muslims feel comfortable doing this so often ,and they are so often given at least a semi nod of approval by people like you is yet another sign and cause of their continued intolerance.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »Again, you're missing my point: Implying that Anders was a Christian fundamentalist completely misses a whole range of ideology that was present in his worldview. And in doing so means we will replicate the same problems over and over again.
Thats because the situations are not analagious. Anders was a Christian who killed for political reasons. Mohammed Atta was a Muslim who killed believing he would be rewarded in the after life, inspired to do what he did explicitly by religion. If you cant see how that is different, really I dont know how to make it much clearer.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »Everyone knows, eh? Someone posted earlier about the lack of terrorist atrocities associated with islamic extremism in Europe recently. But then, they had an 'artificial' cut off point. So, when do you begin? And, if you want to again misunderstand a complex situation with lots of different reasonings for 'religious' violence, do you include Northern Ireland in this list? I'd say that would sway the figures somewhat. But then, we know it was a lot more complex than that.
Make it recent history, and once again like I said a few times now by far the most Islam inspired violence is carried out in Islamic countries, against sects those people believe are apostasy. Last time I bothered checking it was 600 cases in Pakistan alone in 2009. The opinion that this is "right" is as high as 30% in Britian. If this is indicitive of a tolerant religion to you, what would it take for it to become "intolerant"?Toby Take a Bow wrote: »Definitely couldn't be considered moderate. But you original said major sects. Neither would be considered a major sect. But feel free to change the terms as you respond.
Wahabism most definitly is.
Again, irrelevant when so many individualy take it upon themselves to support various groups and be intolerant, as again the polls have shown.Toby Take a Bow wrote: »Ah, so my 'anecdotal' evidence isn't satisfactory, but polls wouldn't prove anything anyway? But, yeah, my point would be that extremism does exist everywhere. And it's never a good idea to tar a whole group or religion with what the extremists get up to.
No polls would not prove anything with regard to what you are arguing. Try and keep up.
I didnt tar the entire religion, I pointed out there is massive amounts of evidence that it is far from a tiny minority that are intolerant and willing to support violence in various places and towards various groups. If the fact that Muslims responded in such a way as to "tar" their own religion, I guess you could take it up with them somehow.0 -
cartell_best wrote: »OMG, do you ever stop? OK...I get the point as I hope many others do...please....
Bless ya, brought a pea shooter to a gun fight
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Well, there are parts of the world where someone who conforms to the worst Irish stereotype (i.e. loud obnoxious drunk) might not fit in very well in the local community. The Muslim world for one, where alcohol is forbidden, but also I'm thinking of Japan, where a safety culture is "cool," for whose people grace and dignity are core attributes. Misbehaviour of any kind is severely frowned upon.Paddys. Pasty faced drunken corrupt shower of shites. And yes, they are all the same. You PC Liberal Ivory tower livin middle class types just don't want to face the truth. Ye wouldn't be that smart if one moved next door to you.
Many of the peoples of the world have different values. What's acceptable on O'Connell St - or for that matter many English cities where people also get drunk and misbehave - on a Saturday night, would not be acceptable in Downtown Abu-Dahbi or quiet residental area of Tokyo.
Likewise, I contend that Muslims who have certain hateful values, like misogyny, anti-Semitism and Islamist supremacy, should not be welcome here in Europe, their values are incompatible with ours, they don't add anything but trouble and we don't need them.
Secondly you're contesting a point that no one has made. I.E.
STRAWMAN!!!
I for one, have no problem with a Muslim in Europe who:- Doesn't hate Jews
- Doesn't hate homosexuals.
- Doesn't rape non-Muslim women.
- Doesn't believe in honour violence.
- Don't want to kill apostates/blashphemers in the name of Islam.
- Doesn't support terrorism.
- Doesn't force their women to dress in Burkas or other such insane outfits.
- Don't hate their adopted country.
- Don't try to isolate themselves from the rest of society.
- Don't have ridiculously large families.
I'm not saying every single Muslim is like this - No-one has - but there's enough of it that I think we in Europe have a real problem.0 -
Then there would be increase in support for other groups then, which I have have yet to see. So I would again disagree, as I have yet to see this other banner you speak of.
Perhaps, and we are arguing in pure congecture here. However I will not accept that tolerance is rising untill there is a marked decline in radical views from what we see today, that the levels of support for individual groups is falling is no doubt a good thing, however I would liken it to a democrat losing faith in a party - they might never vote for FF again, but that doesnt mean they are willing to give up on the democratic process.
I hope that analogy made some kind of sense.I have no idea on the wider Jewish attitudes personally (should have said that earlier), and I haven't been able to find much either.
I cant find one, sorry, but I do remember seeing some heartening polls that found amoungst American Jews (particularly young ones) there was massive sympathy for the Palestinian cause and a respect for Islam in general, very much the opposite of Israeli or older American Jewish views. Amoungst Muslims there was a small increase in views we may consider radical compared to their parents, but no where near the levels of, say, the British youths who appear to see themselves as very seperate from the society they live in.
I should have commented on how much the economics and culture of the country the Muslim is living in also effects their "radicalness" to a massive degree.0 -
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I hope that analogy made some kind of sense.
I understand the analogy, but Al Qaeda was more than a group. They represented an ideology as much as anything else they did. Rejecting them also meant rejected there ideology, which was hugely intolerant, of pretty much anyone who wasn't them.I cant find one, sorry, but I do remember seeing some heartening polls that found amoungst American Jews (particularly young ones) there was massive sympathy for the Palestinian cause and a respect for Islam in general, very much the opposite of Israeli or older American Jewish views.
I haven't been able to find anything in this regards either. I have similar anecdotal things however.0 -
..................., to some this incursion is extremly threatening to their way of life.
If you look at some of the polls Wes or I put up you will find that 50% of Muslims believe nearly every international and major national incident is orchestrated in some way by the US. Again, an example of the self pitty and complete lack of self criticism. Again, very clearly not a rational point of view.
Untill they a majority begin to take responsibility for situations they themselves are in I have no doubt they will continue to blame the big dog for everything that goes wrong in their house. Unfortunatly any reason based evaluation of available evidence makes it a little more complex than that.
There ye go again....'I don't generalise (but here's a massive series of generalisations and sweeping statements)'.0 -
- Doesn't hate Jews
- Doesn't hate homosexuals.
- Doesn't rape non-Muslim women.
- Doesn't believe in honour violence.
- Don't want to kill apostates/blashphemers in the name of Islam.
- Doesn't support terrorism.
- Doesn't force their women to dress in Burkas or other such insane outfits.
- Don't hate their adopted country.
- Don't try to isolate themselves from the rest of society.
- Don't have ridiculously large families.
Wow - it's night of the living loons!0 -
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Secondly you're contesting a point that no one has made. I.E.
STRAWMAN!!!
I for one, have no problem with a Muslim in Europe who:- Doesn't hate Jews
- Doesn't hate homosexuals.
- Doesn't rape non-Muslim women.
- Doesn't believe in honour violence.
- Don't want to kill apostates/blashphemers in the name of Islam.
- Doesn't support terrorism.
- Doesn't force their women to dress in Burkas or other such insane outfits.
- Don't hate their adopted country.
- Don't try to isolate themselves from the rest of society.
- Don't have ridiculously large families.
I'm not saying every single Muslim is like this - No-one has - but there's enough of it that I think we in Europe have a real problem.
...apart from the fact that many of those could be applied to other groups as well (and no, saying its ok because theres "less of them" doesn't cut it), - who are you to say and define what a 'ridiculously large family' is for a particular group?
You might be best to read this
http://libcom.org/files/IslamisationMyth.pdf0
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