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Shootings In France
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Prinz you're correct but then movements of any kind get a measure of rejects and drifters . Damaged or socially adrift people are easy to recruit .Cults too have a good measure of them ."Nobody want's me but these people make me feel like i'm somebody ",way of thinking .. See Memri TV ON What a good Arab said about arabs .0
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MEMRI wouldn't exactly be high on the list of reliable sources....0
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Wouldn't gravity take over and wrench the gun from your hand as you're falling? The actual fall would take seconds so how many shots would he have had time to make? Just sounds pretty unlikely to me.
The falling (fear) would cause your muscles to tense, which would cause your hand to form a fist, which would cause you to pull the trigger.
If it was an automatic weapon he could unload a magazine in less than a second or two.
I think it's unlikely he jumped and shot at people on the way down but if he jumped with a gun in his hand it's almost guaranteed a few shots would be fired.0 -
....what incidents do the polls show support for, exactly?
– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.
16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.
-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
Cant find the one supporting 7/7, couldnt be bothered looking any harder.
Deleted the irrelevant ones... I left the last one in because, and I dont know if your aware of this, but Saudi Arabia is not known for its excellent history of tollerance. It is the model they wish to follow...
Really it baffles the mind that people can look at figures like that and not say that a significant number of Muslims are intolerant...0 -
It's becoming a bit clearer as time goes on.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17473207A police sniper shot and killed the gunman who carried out a spate of murders in southern France, prosecutors say, after a 32-hour siege in Toulouse.
Mohammed Merah, 23, who claimed to have al-Qaeda training, opened fire on police commandos after they stormed into his flat at 09:30 GMT.
Prosecutors said he was shot in the head as he tried to flee.
Merah carried out three separate attacks, killing four people at a Jewish school and three soldiers.
He had said he was acting to "avenge Palestinian children" and protest against French military interventions overseas.
Prosecutor Francois Molins confirmed in a news conference that a police marksman had killed Merah as he tried to jump out of the bathroom window.
"The examination of the body shows that he was shot in the head and that he was wearing a bullet-proof vest," Mr Molins said, "and had a gun covered by a pair of jeans."0 -
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Im going to pre empt everyone who is going to say "Cant believe the SHOT him" and say you watch too many movies if you think its easy or in any way safe to take down a guy with a gun who is clearly willing to give his life and who may or may not have explosives strapped to himself.0 -
If he was trying to flee why shoot him in the head? Surely a marksman could have delivered a disabling shot to the legs? I wonder did they ever have any intention of taking this guy alive.0
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It isnt? The views of "jews" in Egypt and Jordan is 2% favourable, Lebanon 3% Indonesia scores highest with a resounding 9% ... Were you hoping I couldnt read or something?
So your saying a 19% approval is much better? Its not a whole lot better, especially considering that Israel has a significant Muslim populace:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Religion
So the amount of muslims is 16.8%, so I am going to go out an a limb here, and take they would view Muslims positively, if they were asked in a poll, so it wouldn't surprise me that the figure is due to Israeli's Muslim populace. Either way, a minority positive view of 19% isn't exactly good , if we ignore that.Even if your original statement WAS right, once again we have the powerful argument that because Israelis are not tolerant, the 99%, 98% and as low as 90% that dislike Jews in Muslim countries are suddenly to be considered tolerant. Ah logic!
No one said that actually. I was just pointing out that a mutual animosity exists, which is no excuse for either group. What you say above is something you have invented yourself. There really is no way to have any kind of conversation with you, when you start making crap up.Also you will find that poll does not in fact measure the same things as the one I polled, it measures the perception of each other. The original measured stuff as diverse as support for violent attacks amoungst Muslims.
That was just an example, there are multiple newer polls on PEW. Here is another example:
Osama bin Laden Largely Discredited Among Muslim Publics in Recent YearsBut sure Im sure this will be disregarded to as yet another overture towards tolerance.
Again, no one said this. You are making crap up as per usual, as you can't actually argue with what was actually said. The fact remains you used an out of date poll, as there are several more recent polls, and that was just one of them.0 -
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If he was trying to flee why shoot him in the head? Surely a marksman could have delivered a disabling shot to the legs? I wonder did they ever have any intention of taking this guy alive.
Next time there is a similiar situation you should fly over and apprehend the suspect alive, you seem to know quiet a bit about it.0 -
– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.
16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.
-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
Cant find the one supporting 7/7, couldnt be bothered looking any harder.
Deleted the irrelevant ones... I left the last one in because, and I dont know if your aware of this, but Saudi Arabia is not known for its excellent history of tollerance. It is the model they wish to follow...
Really it baffles the mind that people can look at figures like that and not say that a significant number of Muslims are intolerant...
I'm not seeing anything like 'approve of going into Jewish schools and killing small children' there.....
I've never said that there wasn't a problem of intolerance with some elements and regions associated with Islam. Quite the opposite.0 -
So your saying a 19% approval is much better? Its not a whole lot better, especially considering that Israel has a significant Muslim populace:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Religion
So the amount of muslims is 16.8%, so I am going to go out an a limb here, and take they would view Muslims positively, if they were asked in a poll, so it wouldn't surprise me that the figure is due to Israeli's Muslim populace.
Again, irrelvant to the point made about the reletive tolerance or lack thereof in Islam.No one said that actually. I was just pointing out that a mutual animosity exists, which is no excuse for either. What you say above is something you have invented yourself. There really is no way to have any kind of conversation with you, when you start making crap up.
So you were making a point no one else was contesting and that has no bearing on what was said before? Thanks.That was just an example, there are multiple newer polls on PEW. Here is another example:
Osama bin Laden Largely Discredited Among Muslim Publics in Recent Years
Great now a discredited OBL = tolerance. Do you even know what your arguing?Again, no one said this. You are making crap up as per usual, as you can't actually argue with what was actually said. The fact remains you used an out of date poll, as there are several more recent polls, and that was just one of them.
An "out of date poll" ? what the hell is that? You linked to another poll that then asked different questions. It is a 6 year old poll, not 60. If you can find a poll that asks the same questions (unlikely) and shows a cosmic shift in Arab and Muslim opinion and levels of tolerance (more unlikely) show it.
If you cant, deal with it.0 -
If he was trying to flee why shoot him in the head? Surely a marksman could have delivered a disabling shot to the legs? I wonder did they ever have any intention of taking this guy alive.
You can anticipate where the head and body will be as they remain relatively stable even when running.
The legs are all over the place when running.
And you don't shoot an armed suspect to disable them. The last thing you want is a desperate, adrenaline-filled lunatic shooter out in the open as police attempt to arrest him.0 -
Again, irrelvant to the point made about the reletive tolerance or lack thereof in Islam.
Perfectly relevant, as I am saying that imo that the animosity is due to the ongoing conflict between the 2 groups. I am talking about the why in that case. Which is hardly irrelevant.So you were making a point no one else was contesting and that has no bearing on what was said before? Thanks.
I was saying that both sides have a mutual animosity e.g. why. You know both sides don't like each other, and it fuels hatred on both sides.Great now a discredited OBL = tolerance. Do you even know what your arguing?
It shows a changing view, and yes people going from supporting him, to rejecting him and his methods, would show some changes in that regard.An "out of date poll" ? what the hell is that?
There are more recent polls from the same source that address the same issues.You linked to another poll that then asked different questions.
They covered similar ground nontheless.It is a 6 year old poll, not 60.
Things can change in 6 years e.g. the views toward OBL being one example.If you can find a poll that asks the same questions (unlikely) and shows a cosmic shift in Arab and Muslim opinion and levels of tolerance (more unlikely) show it.
I showed 1 poll that showed a change, but you rejected it right away. Using more recent data, can tell us if there are any trends. In case of OBL, we can see a change, in other cases, there is no change. You can't ignore more recent data imho, even if they aren't huge shifts in attitude.If you cant, deal with it.
Deal with what exactly? Again, there are more recent polls that cover similar ground, and I already shown one that showed some changes.0 -
I'm not seeing anything like 'approve of going into Jewish schools and killing small children' there.....
I've never said that there wasn't a problem of intolerance with some elements and regions associated with Islam. Quite the opposite.
Im afraid there is no poll done amoungst french muslims about the current situation yet, but then I was proving that intolerance is rife not that every French Muslim will be jumping up and down with excitment at this particular incident.
However support for the deliberate killing of innocent childeren is hardly unheard of in the past
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html
Well then your agreeing with me on the second point. I have repeatedly said that it is an (albiet large in some places) minority and very specific to the particular type of Islam groups follow. One of the problems of not having the dialogue that without a shadow has to take place about Islam and the particular problems it faces is that we still use what is an essentially an umbrella term "islam" to refer to 100's of different groups which vary wildly in there dedication to violence, and more importantly in this discussion "tolerance".
I did not address what you said about Hamas earlier, and I dont disagree that those 50% that say they support Hamas are hardly all in favour of the genocide of Jews i nthe Middle East and elsewhere, much more likely they merely see Hamas standing up to Israel, like what they see, and probably are not even aware of the groups stated greater aims. My point was how far support for such a group streches, regardless of the reasons for the amount of support.0 -
However support for the deliberate killing of innocent childeren is hardly unheard of in the past
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html
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The Palestinians would hardly be the most representative view, considering the ongoing violence between them and Israel. There would surely be far more hard line views there than anywhere else.0 -
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Perfectly relevant, as I am saying that imo that the animosity is due to the ongoing conflict between the 2 groups. I am talking about the why in that case. Which is hardly irrelevant.
Ok so the killer has a "reason" in your eyes to shoot jewish kids, I dont really care.
I was pointing out the widespread intolerance in Muslim societies.
You linked to a poll that proved me right but claimed that because it exists elsewhere, it should then be ignored amoungst Muslims.It shows a changing view, and yes people going from supporting him, to rejecting him and his methods, would show some changes in that regard.
Not with regard to tolerance. The fall in popularity of al Qaeda no doubt has more to do with thier deliberate targeting of Muslims, rather than a recognition of the need for greater tolerance.There are more recent polls from the same source that address the same issues.
:rolleyes: Then stop hiding them and show them. You would probably want to check first this time if it actually shows a change in what actually matters, ie the tolerance of Muslims towards non Muslims throuhgout the world.They covered similar ground nontheless.
Perhaps, but then the conclusions are the same so its irrelevant.Things can change in 6 years e.g. the views toward OBL being one example.
Surely, but then you can form your opinion on hopes or facts. I choose facts, even if a poll does age. (and 2011 as in the case of the one you found isnt exactly "out of date")I showed 1 poll that showed a change, but you rejected it right away. Using more recent data, can tell us if there are any trends. In case of OBL, we can see a change, in other cases, there is no change. You can't ignore more recent data imho, even if they aren't huge shifts in attitude.
I did not reject it, I pointed out it did not support your argument.
And yes we can look at trends, and they may even be encouraging however we cannot ignore where the opinion is now.
In 100 years an Islamic society may be the most tolerant on earth, it will not change where it is at now.Deal with what exactly? Again, there are more recent polls that cover similar ground, and I already shown one that showed some changes.
Deal with what the data places beyond any doubt, that at this moment in time a siginifcant minority amoungst Muslims are intolerant and more than willing to justify murder in numerous cases on religious grounds.0 -
We're living in what seems to be a somewhat unique time. We have almost instantaneous reports from the world media of mind boggling events. It never ease's the pain of those closely affected or a complete stranger watching images on TV that transpire. For some reason, recent events seem to be man made. Be it a coach crash with the loss of such innocent souls or somebody that takes it upon themselves to take it upon his evil persona to extinguish innocence.
When does it stop? The world is an absolutely beautiful place and as always, that beauty in infected with instances and situations that causes me (I don't know about ye?) to wonder what really goes on in somebody's mind when they ultimately contribute to someone's passing?
Its sad, so fookin sad. I can't help but be moved from what I see what goes on this small planet of ours. I think that we as people and humanity, have lost and continue to loose what empathy that was naturally instilled into us (well maybe some) at some stage.....
What happened in Toulouse is just soo wrong on many levels...0 -
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The Palestinians would hardly be the most representative view, considering the ongoing violence between them and Israel. There would surely be far more hard line views there than anywhere else.
Thats true, I dont doubt that their opinion is more informed by poverty, history and recent conflict than religion or rasicsm, as informs the intolerance and violence in other regions.0 -
You can anticipate where the head and body will be as they remain relatively stable even when running.
The legs are all over the place when running.
And you don't shoot an armed suspect to disable them. The last thing you want is a desperate, adrenaline-filled lunatic shooter out in the open as police attempt to arrest him.
Particularly one who is a member of a group with a penchant for strapping explosives and ball bearings to themselves.0 -
The Palestinians would hardly be the most representative view, considering the ongoing violence between them and Israel. There would surely be far more hard line views there than anywhere else.
Then you should probably not try and give advice on something you dont know anything about. Just an idea.
Apologise if you are in fact a SWAT sniper.0 -
Ok so the killer has a "reason" in your eyes to shoot jewish kids, I dont really care.
I said no such thing. You are making stuff up again, or you have problems with reading and comprehension. I can't say I care either way.I was pointing out the widespread intolerance in Muslim societies.
Yes.You linked to a poll that proved me right but claimed that because it exists elsewhere, it should then be ignored amoungst Muslims.
No, I didn't. Again, either you have reading and comprehension issues, or you are making stuff up. Either way, its rather silly.Not with regard to tolerance. The fall in popularity of al Qaeda no doubt has more to do with thier deliberate targeting of Muslims, rather than a recognition of the need for greater tolerance.
Just as likely such attacks showed people the need for tolerance, and that embracing such extremists movements is bad for everyone.:rolleyes: Then stop hiding them and show them. You would probably want to check first this time if it actually shows a change in what actually matters, ie the tolerance of Muslims towards non Muslims throuhgout the world.
Your more than capable of find them yourself. I already show later polls, and even one that showed some changes.Perhaps, but then the conclusions are the same so its irrelevant.
I would disagree, as more recent data gives trends, which in this case there has sadly been no changes.Surely, but then you can form your opinion on hopes or facts. I choose facts, even if a poll does age. (and 2011 as in the case of the one you found isnt exactly "out of date")
I am forming my opinion on facts.I did not reject it, I pointed out it did not support your argument.
According to you, but I would disagree.And yes we can look at trends, and they may even be encouraging however we cannot ignore where the opinion is now.
In 100 years an Islamic society may be the most tolerant on earth, it will not change where it is at now.
I am not saying we should ignore where things are now, but let be fair here 2006 is not now, is it? Surely if we are concerned with now, then looking at more recent data is better?Deal with what the data places beyond any doubt, that at this moment in time a siginifcant minority amoungst Muslims are intolerant and more than willing to justify murder in numerous cases on religious grounds.
Yes, and I never disputed that. I just pointed out that there is more recent data, and that some things have changed, again support for OBL being one example.0 -
Just as likely such attacks showed people the need for tolerance, and that embracing such extremists movements is bad for everyone.
Perhaps, and you may be right. However if this were without a shadow then we would see a similiar decline in, say, anti jewish sentiment in countries as far afield as Turkey and Pakistan.
It is encouraging that OBL is no longer a hero for a large minority (bar in pakistan) but it is no more than that.Your more than capable of find them yourself. I already show later polls, and even one that showed some changes.
Except I dont think these polls that prove you right all of a sudden exist.I would disagree, as more recent data gives trends, which in this case there has sadly been no changes.
Again, a trend does not mean the intolerance has or will suddenly disappear. You may have hopes for the future, that does not change the situation at present.I am forming my opinion on facts.
And your opinion is Islam does not have a problem with tolerance and or violence, despite the significant statistical data?
At what numbers would you start considering intolerance a "problem" in the Islamic community if 30% believe apostasy should now be punished with death does not somehow cut it?According to you, but I would disagree.
Your poll showed the vast majority of Muslims had a negative view of an ethnic group based on nothing more than said ethnicity. You have a new definition of intolerance?I am not saying we should ignore where things are now, but let be fair here 2006 is not now, is it? Surely if we are concerned with now, then looking at more recent data is better?
Your really grasping at straws here. Show me a similiarly large and thorough poll that shows a massive shift in public opinion or accept that 6 year old evidence is not dead in sociology and that it is the most effective measure we have.Yes, and I never disputed that. I just pointed out that there is more recent data, and that some things have changed, again support for OBL being one example.
But not the levels of intolerance, particularly towards Jews (again NOT Israelis) which in fact got much worse. Which was what I argued at the start Islam had a problem with. OBL is at best tangental and at worst a complete red herring.0 -
this nutter is now presumably in heaven with his 55 virgins, his halal meat dinner, his celestial scooter parked outside, thinking to himself "what a f****ing day!"0
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I think Muslim folk have been remarkably restrained in the EU and US considering that 'we' have killed hundreds of thousands of them, including thousands of children, in all sorts of vile ways .0
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Chuck Stone wrote: »I think Muslim folk have been remarkably restrained in the EU and US considering that 'we' have killed hundreds of thousands of them, including thousands of children, in all sorts of vile ways .
They have? Have Christians been remarkably restrained considering what takes place in the Sudan, Nigeria East Timor and numerous individual attacks across the world for decades? Or would you consider a retaliation by Christians on the Muslim community as a whole compeltly uncalled for and unforgivable, rather than something requiring "restraint"?
Or, conversly, do you think they owe us an unbelievable amount given the prosperity they have come to have through technologies and medicines almost exclusivly brought to them by the US and a handful of others?
It was hard to know where to start picking apart this particular inane statement, so I just picked two obvious little bits.0 -
Again, you are merely making excuses for rascism, like it or not. Your also clearly entirely unaware of the manifesto of the groups that carry out attacks like this (if this guy was a member or not).
No, I wasn't. I was asking whether there may be a historical 'justification', whether flawed or not, for anti-Israeli (and and ignorant extension of this feeling towards Jews in general). How did Jews in the area tend to fair before the establishment of an Israeli state? Even if polls didn't exist asking these questions, you could make a fairly informed argument based on population figures in the area prior to the establishment of the state. I would wager that there would be extensive Jewish populations throughout the 'Islamic' world prior to WWII.No I talk about it as though there is a large consensus within said religion, as the polls clearly show.
No, the figures you quoted were a small snapshot of particular groups of Muslims, which I was arguing was a dangerous thing to do.The other poll has opinions throughout the middle east. They differ but not by much. Some are more radical, some less.
I would see a marked difference in attitudes between organisations that exist solely for terrorist means (Al Qaeda) and those that at least style themselves (whether they actually are or not) as social organisations with a military arm. And, yeah, their opposition to Israel definitely plays a part, I would think, in the responses of those surveyed.Ah so you have another contender of a major religion which is similarily willing to use violence and extremism? Please, show us which one and evidence for that their intolerance is on the same scale, or as likely to lead to outward violence. I await with baited breath.
I would. Anders Breivik's nutjob Templar organisation could be considered a militant Christian organisation. You'd have to be completely ignorant of how little this group plays into Christianity in general and how extremists are not representatives of the whole, but sure why not.No I acknowledged the violence almost entirelly comes from several (large) sects within Islam. If you cant carry that thought through to the end of the post, its really not my problem.
What large sects condone violence of the sort supported by Hezbollah or Al-Qaeda? That is, what leader of Sunni or Shia Islam supports these groups? Before you answer, remember the Ayatollah represents one branch of Shia Islam.Id also like to see some actual evidence for this, just out of curiousity.
For extremist ultra-orthodox Jewish groups in the west bank?
Link
Link2
Link3
There are also some groups (Lubavitchers, I think) who operate in the area, but are actually opposed to the state of Israel (in its physical sense). I can't find the article I read (it would be years ago, and linked their worldview with some of the extremist groups that operate in Williamsburg in NYC).Really? Ok, I dont really care. My point was that discussion within Islam is still far more preoccupied with their hand ringing over their perceived vilification. See any editorial or piece on Al Jazeera, Press TV
The far left are just as likely to live in a monochromatic world as the far right. Just because they often switch it around does not mean they suddenly have an enormously complex and well informed view of moderen politics.
Hmm. That was pretty much my point, by turned on its head. But yeah, black-and-white worldviews aren't the preserve of the left, 'Islamic' media or the right.0 -
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So your saying a 19% approval is much better? Its not a whole lot better, especially considering that Israel has a significant Muslim populace:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Religion
So the amount of muslims is 16.8%, so I am going to go out an a limb here, and take they would view Muslims positively, if they were asked in a poll, so it wouldn't surprise me that the figure is due to Israeli's Muslim populace. Either way, a minority positive view of 19% isn't exactly good , if we ignore that.
Just read the thing a little more carefully and saw this "9% of Israeli Jews have a positive view of Muslims" So your right, its much lower, about as high as the most positive view of Jews in a Muslim country (Indonesia) but still wildly "intolerant".0
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