Renault Zoe, would you buy it ?

Eric Cartman · 19-03-2012 8:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm more of a technology nut than a petrol nut. I do,love my cars too. But tax is a killer, Evs will get cheaper no doubt. I need my car and I don't want to have to,pay high taxes to,use it any more and so electric offers me any many others an alternative . I never buy new and probably won't buy a new ev either, But as soon as I can pick one up at a decent price and the battery is has proved to be reliable, then I'll buy one.

so what happens if EV's become popular and the cost of electricity rises and the government put a 300 per year tax on EV's to make up a shortfall, along with demand for charging points increasing until you have to pay 20 euro for an hour to charge your EV in dublin and have to be back to collect your car within 15 minutes of that hour ending or you get a fine/ towed, so suddenly the tax is 300 per year and you might have to shell out 20 a week / every few days to drive in dublin.

What will you do then ? if taxes are your biggest motoring gripe

19-03-2012 8:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

............. If you read back you will read where I said I would wait until the price of e.v's come down...............

I'd class spending €8000 as a decent wedge

Deleted User wrote: »

............

I myself would probably wait until the car costs 8k in 4 years, by that time petrol will be a lot closer to 2.00 per litre and it costs 66 Euros for 40 litres of petrol today at 2.00 euros it will cost 80 Euros for 40 litres, that's very scary...........

19-03-2012 9:09pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so what happens if EV's become popular and the cost of electricity rises and the government put a 300 per year tax on EV's to make up a shortfall, along with demand for charging points increasing until you have to pay 20 euro for an hour to charge your EV in dublin and have to be back to collect your car within 15 minutes of that hour ending or you get a fine/ towed, so suddenly the tax is 300 per year and you might have to shell out 20 a week / every few days to drive in dublin.

What will you do then ? if taxes are your biggest motoring gripe

Energy costs are only going one direction, it's inevitable that electricity costs will rise.

If they put a 300 year tax on ev's that will still not matter to most people really, because by then ice cars will cost a hell of a lot more to buy, tax, and petrol and diesel might be closer to 3 Euro's per litre in 10 years +

If solar keeps dropping at such rates it will make a lot of sense to install solar pv panels in a few years. Some people have done just that heare on boards.ie and are getting some pretty good results!

20 euro's to park an hour is completely unrealistic, then no one will park and they won't get any parking revenue at all.

19-03-2012 9:11pm

RoverJames wrote: »

I'd class spending €8000 as a decent wedge

You class that as a lot of money ?

Eric Cartman · 19-03-2012 9:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Energy costs are only going one direction, it's inevitable that electricity costs will rise.

If they put a 300 year tax on ev's that will still not matter to most people really, because by then ice cars will cost a hell of a lot more to buy, tax, and petrol and diesel might be closer to 3 Euro's per litre in 10 years +

If solar keeps dropping at such rates it will make a lot of sense to install solar pv panels in a few years. Some people have done just that heare on boards.ie and are getting some pretty good results!

20 euro's to park an hour is completely unrealistic, then no one will park and they won't get any parking revenue at all.

ICE cars will always be cheaper to produce than EV's because of the metals used to construct batteries, aswell as the engineering history to them.

20 euro to park and charge an EV sounds like madness, but if you only had 100-200 charge points in dublin city and even a few thousand EVs around the GDA it could very well become a reality as demand outstrips supply. There is simply not enough cable in the ground or money in the councils budget to put in thousands of charging points

19-03-2012 9:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You class that as a lot of money ?

I'd class €8000 as a lot of money to spend on a car.

I presume you would too considering you think spending €55 per week for 450 miles ish in your Prius is a lot

19-03-2012 9:47pm

RoverJames wrote: »

I'd class €8000 as a lot of money to spend on a car.

I presume you would too considering you think spending €55 per week for 450 miles ish in your Prius is a lot

I don't consider 8K a lot to spend on a car, we do a lot of miles so I want something that will last a few years.

I consider spending 55+ euros on petrol a lot when 70+ % of a tank is tax. I would rather the option to spend that on something I choose, be it e.v or whatever and not have it go straight to the Government.

19-03-2012 9:52pm

€8000 not a lot of cash on a car, €55/week in a 60mpg car is a lot, manuals are sh1t, diesels are sh1t, the Zoe are great, so too the Prius, free parking for EVs so you can go to Dublin shopping if you had one..................:pac:

19-03-2012 9:56pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ICE cars will always be cheaper to produce than EV's because of the metals used to construct batteries, aswell as the engineering history to them.

20 euro to park and charge an EV sounds like madness, but if you only had 100-200 charge points in dublin city and even a few thousand EVs around the GDA it could very well become a reality as demand outstrips supply. There is simply not enough cable in the ground or money in the councils budget to put in thousands of charging points

The cost of batteries will come down as more and more batteries are built.

Vehicle manufacturers won't keep producing both ice and e.v, the cost to run an ice will keep going up. I can see it costing far less for a manufacturer to build ev's in the future as emissions regulations get tougher and battery costs drop.

The esb are installing the chargers, not the councils.

You seem to be forgetting that most people will do all their charging at home at night. And some will only need to charge once a week or twice.

As e.v's get smarter and the grid, then cars can take excess wind at night and e.v's can output it to the grid when not being used.

The esb are also planning on reusing spent e.v batteries.

eringobragh · 19-03-2012 10:10pm

....this must have EV attitude reminds me of the sheep queuing for iPads...talking about getting one for weeks and its run its course after month 1..

don't be under any illusion the EV community will be exempt forever as soon as this technology gets in anyway popular the taxman will come knocking....

look what happened to the BioFuel - I know of 1 lad who got the focus flexifuel and I don't think theres many stations in the country that even stock it due to tax rebates being lifted.

Guy:Incognito · 19-03-2012 10:32pm

RoverJames wrote: »

Seventy a month would fuel a diesel one for than mileage me thinks.

But dont all diesels explode in under 100,000km's costing €5k + in repairs?

19-03-2012 10:49pm

eringobragh wrote: »

....this must have EV attitude reminds me of the sheep queuing for iPads...talking about getting one for weeks and its run its course after month 1..

don't be under any illusion the EV community will be exempt forever as soon as this technology gets in anyway popular the taxman will come knocking....

look what happened to the BioFuel - I know of 1 lad who got the focus flexifuel and I don't think theres many stations in the country that even stock it due to tax rebates being lifted.

No matter the revenue collection, it will take some years to pay back the bank loans. Now that property tax is coming , and water charges, they will be collecting far more revenue. It makes no sense to keep applying extortionate taxes on vehicles.

Don't knock Ipads, they are a very popular device!

Sesshoumaru · 19-03-2012 11:12pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ICE cars will always be cheaper to produce than EV's because of the metals used to construct batteries, aswell as the engineering history to them.

20 euro to park and charge an EV sounds like madness, but if you only had 100-200 charge points in dublin city and even a few thousand EVs around the GDA it could very well become a reality as demand outstrips supply. There is simply not enough cable in the ground or money in the councils budget to put in thousands of charging points

ICE are overly complex, hundreds of moving parts to accomplish a task that an EV can accomplish with 5 or less moving parts. Also battery costs are coming down rapidly.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/19/mitsubishi-again-discusses-lower-i-miev-price-target-of-22-000/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2012/03/15/prweb9280084.DTL

http://arpa-e.energy.gov/ProgramsProjects/OtherProjects/EnergyStorage/HighEnergyDensityLithiumBatteries.aspx

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/battery-innovation-is-alive-and-well-in-the-u-s/

In Chu’s speech he referenced a startup called Vorbeck Materials, which is working with Pacific Northwest National Labs (PNNL) and Princeton University, to develop next-gen lithium batteries using graphene. In a speech by former Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott, Scott took the opportunity to talk about Fluidic Energy, an energy storage company in Phoenix, Arizona, that’s making rechargeable metal air batteries, and on which Scott is on the Board.

Silicon Valley battery maker Envia Systems made news at ARPA-E this week thanks to its breakthrough that it can build a high energy-dense battery that could create a 300-mile range electric car and could cost around $25,000 to $30,000. Envia is backed by venture capitalists, General Motors, and the Department of Energy. “There are three countries in the race for batteries for electric vehicles: Japan, Korea and the U.S.,” said Atul Kapadia, CEO of Envia Systems to me in an interview at ARPA-E. Envia is looking to partner with global battery manufacturers to license it’s tech or establish joint ventures.

EV owners charge mostly at home. I've done 22,000 kilometer in the last 11 months in my EV and I've very rarely charged my car at a public charging station. Nearly half the time I use a public charging station it's because it's new and I like to try it out for the novelty factor! Talking to other EV owners around the country, this experience has been replicated among all of them.

Lets face it as well, a Leaf on a public charger is using 220volt at 16 amp. That's only 50% of what a fairly standard oven would use

http://www.harveynorman.ie/belling-60cm-freestanding-cooker-with-double-oven-no-timer.html

http://www.belling.co.uk/freestanding-cookers/fse60do/

If you check out the specifications tab on the manufacturers website, you'll see that oven for €479 draws twice as much power when in operation as a Nissan Leaf would when charging. So I would just say, lets not get hysterical about powering these cars.

Most EV owners charge at home AND at night time on cheaper rate electricity that would normally be wasted anyway.

19-03-2012 11:17pm

I got an E.V already

41 mph max, fantastic acceleration!

I lost 2 stone from cycling last year and using it when I was knackered or for steep hills!

Full charge about 10 cent for a complete charge for 10-12 miles range at 35-40 mph or 25 miles at 20 mph. No peddling!

All from a little 60 volt 8.5 ah battery! Now that's an efficient way to travel! :-)

Here's good old leccy!

BTW the battery is only half the size of the bag!

Guy:Incognito · 19-03-2012 11:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I got an E.V already

41 mph max, fantastic acceleration!

I lost 2 stone from cycling last year and using it when I was knackered or for steep hills!

Full charge about 10 cent for a complete charge for 10-12 miles range at 35-40 mph or 25 miles at 20 mph. No peddling!

All from a little 60 volt 8.5 ah battery! Now that's an efficient way to travel! :-)

Here's good old leccy!

BTW the battery is only half the size of the bag!

I'd happily pay the extra to be safely and warmly in a car thanks.:)

19-03-2012 11:41pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'd happily pay the extra to be safely and warmly in a car thanks.:)

Yeah for long distance you need a car, I live about 8 miles form the nearest big town, if I could find work there that 16 mile round trip I would do on leccy in all but the worst of weather. IF I get cold I peddle, simple. Peddle 8 miles a day and watch the weight drop off!

If you don't want to peddle then you can get heated body ware bikers use, still far more efficient than any car!

Or get one of these, I think they have doors as an option ? yeah you did read that correctly, I said doors as an option!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzLxae3gI

Sesshoumaru · 19-03-2012 11:49pm

RoverJames wrote: »

Because for every electric vehicle in a parking space not paying that's lost money, empty parking spaces are at somewhat of a premium.

There is a free electric space in Cork City as far as I know, I think they should charge for it the same as any other space.

Why should EVs get free parking in cities?

Unfortunately this is the only copy of the the review I could find:

http://www.gearsgarage.com/video/video/&v=117788027992

It's Clarkson reviewing the Prius and completely slating it. James does ask him at approximately 5 minutes into the video, was there anything at all he liked about it. Jeremy does reluctantly admit he rather liked the idea of living in a village where everyone's car was this quiet.

"I suppose, I quite like the idea of living in a village, if all everybodies car was this quiet"

There is a segment in the video where he drives through a village in electric only mode and comments on how quiet it is. So I would say it's safe to guess he is talking about how quiet it is in EV mode.

I'm guessing I'm picking Jeremy Clarkson and this video to illustrate that even a devoted petrol head like Jeremy Clarkson would like to live somewhere that internal combustion engines do not constantly intrude.

One last anecdote on this point

I was walking my daughter to school one morning (she is only 5) and we were nearing the school entrance. As usual it was jam packed full of cars. Usually parents parking, dropping off kids and then pulling off again. As we were walking by the cars, my daughter was trying to tell me something. But she was having to raise her voice over the rattles and clanging of probably lots of diesels spluttering about their business. At that point she asked me in all seriousness "why are those cars so loud daddy?".

I'm sure most people are used to all the noise their cars make, but once you start driving an electric car, you really start to notice just how noisy ICE cars are. So pulling all that together, I guess what I'm saying is:

It is a desirable goal to live in villages, towns and cities that are quiet. I think since we've seen heavy trucks disappear from Dublin city centre it has improved the city centre environment a lot.

http://www.dublincity.ie/ROADSANDTRAFFIC/HGV/Pages/HGV%20Management%20Strategy.aspx

For me, removing ICE vehicles entirely from our village, town and city centres would make them a much nicer place to bring your family. I would agree with Jeremy Clarkson, I quite like the idea of living somewhere where all the cars were quiet. I think free parking for electric vehicles in our urban centres is a good start. It is one more perk to encourage EV ownership which I feel is beneficial to society.

20-03-2012 12:02am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

...........

I'm guessing I'm picking Jeremy Clarkson and this video to illustrate that even a devoted petrol head like Jeremy Clarkson would like to live somewhere that internal combustion engines do not constantly intrude. ..................
It is a desirable goal to live in villages, towns and cities that are quiet.................

Personally I think Clarkson is a bigger idiot than he is a petrol head, I don't enjoy Topgear because of him mainly

I think city centres should be largely pedestrianised, longterm I'd prefer no private cars in most of the city centre, regardless of what they are powered by

No such thing as a free lunch, if EVs don't pay for parking someone else is picking up the bill.

20-03-2012 12:54am

Yep I completely agree on the noise, first thing I noticed in the Prius after over 350,000 miles in diesels.

I'll never go back now, granted the Prius is noisy on hard acceleration but once cruising it is quiet, town and city driving, only thing I hear are mainly diesels rattling everywhere around me getting far less mpg than me, thinking their diesel is great! Their mpg is going down while mine is going up once I get into town!

RandomAccess · 20-03-2012 1:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

Yep I completely agree on the noise, first thing I noticed in the Prius after over 350,000 miles in diesels.

I'll never go back now, granted the Prius is noisy on hard acceleration but once cruising it is quiet, town and city driving, only thing I hear are mainly diesels rattling everywhere around me getting far less mpg than me, thinking their diesel is great! Their mpg is going down while mine is going up once I get into town!

I was in the UK for a few weeks and the taxi company we used daily had a Prius and an Avensis. The Prius drivetrain felt very unrefined in comparison to the Diesel Avensis. Jerky transition between electric and petrol and noisy as you say under acceleration (CVT is to blame)

Not terribly impressed with it.

RandomAccess · 20-03-2012 2:19am

The 70 euro per month is kind of a disincentive to continue using public transport. The car is no longer as close to the 'pay as you go' model, so people may feel inclined to pop in to town by car when they would normally not..

I think these proper EV's are a welcome development, but I believe Nissan et al have made a mistake in their marketing by preaching to the converted, particularly in their choice of design language which has not managed to capture the imagination of a wider group.
Perhaps the imminent arrival of the Tesla Model S will be a spark to the market (albeit a fairly expensive one)

20-03-2012 1:21pm

RandomAccess wrote: »

I was in the UK for a few weeks and the taxi company we used daily had a Prius and an Avensis. The Prius drivetrain felt very unrefined in comparison to the Diesel Avensis. Jerky transition between electric and petrol and noisy as you say under acceleration (CVT is to blame)

Not terribly impressed with it.

Yes on hard acceleration and depending on the state of charge of the battery it can get noisy, yes cvt to blame, but their engine choice is more to blame. CVT transmissions are ultra smooth, but all autos work best with higher power cars.

As for jerking, there is a little jerk as the engine cuts in, however it's very slight for me, and a torque converter auto is many many times more noticeable. It's a non issue for me I don't even notice that.

CVT transmissions work great with 2.0 L 140 hp vag tdi engines, and I prefer them to their 6 speed dsg, which annoyed the hell out of me hunting all the time! Maybe they are better now, or the 7 speed dsg ?

BUt Toyota should have put a 1.0L turbo or 1.2 Turbo in the prius to give the engine more torque. It would have been more efficient too.

It accelerates fast enough, especially when the battery is fully charged. But most impressive of all is the torque the Prius has for climbing steep hills!

The new model Prius is supposed to be a lot quieter with the engine having more power. They have a plug in now too! The prius is a lot quieter than the B6 A4 TDI I had, there was a lot of wind noise on the motorway, where the prius is a fair bit quieter, and much quieter in town!

Overall I'm quiet impressed with the Prius, the MK II is the one I have. 50-55 mpg on the motorway is good for a petrol auto, but usually by the time I reach my destination I usually get 60-64 mpg and occasionally I can get 75 is mpg if I really try, the way you use the available battery power and the accelerator makes a huge difference.

I'm on winter tyres since I got the car just over a year ago, time for a new set. I'll go with the Michelin energy tyres to see if they make a difference, they are supposed to give an extra 5 mpg or so over winter tyres. Time will tell.

20-03-2012 1:24pm

RandomAccess wrote: »

The 70 euro per month is kind of a disincentive to continue using public transport. The car is no longer as close to the 'pay as you go' model, so people may feel inclined to pop in to town by car when they would normally not..

I think these proper EV's are a welcome development, but I believe Nissan et al have made a mistake in their marketing by preaching to the converted, particularly in their choice of design language which has not managed to capture the imagination of a wider group.
Perhaps the imminent arrival of the Tesla Model S will be a spark to the market (albeit a fairly expensive one)

The Model S will have 3 battery options, it remains to be seen if many will go for the more expensive option.

Would people actually pay an extra 20K for a battery to travel 240 miles in one day, when 95% of their driving is between 0-80 miles a day or less ?

I would be happy enough knowing for that 5% of the time I can pop on a fast charger, or park up and charge from an on street charger in an hour or less while I'm having a meal!

keithclancy · 20-03-2012 2:49pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

For me, removing ICE vehicles entirely from our village, town and city centres would make them a much nicer place to bring your family. I would agree with Jeremy Clarkson, I quite like the idea of living somewhere where all the cars were quiet. I think free parking for electric vehicles in our urban centres is a good start. It is one more perk to encourage EV ownership which I feel is beneficial to society.

Personally I prefer the idea of 1.5 ton hunk of metal moving around the place at 50km/h making some sort of noise.

FFS .. electric forklifts even make a noise when their moving about the place.

Almost got run down by a lexus hybrid going into the work carpark there one day.

20-03-2012 2:56pm

keithclancy wrote: »

Personally I prefer the idea of 1.5 ton hunk of metal moving around the place at 50km/h making some sort of noise.

FFS .. electric forklifts even make a noise when their moving about the place.

Almost got run down by a lexus hybrid going into the work carpark there one day.

People walk out in front of me when I'm in ev mode, How stupid are people that they can't use their eyes ?

Why is it up to car manufacturers to do the thinking for people ?

I think less noise in general is a good thing as noise is a form of pollution. Quieter towns and villages would be really good!

I just wish trucks could be made electric.

20-03-2012 3:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

........... How stupid are people that they can't use their eyes ?..............

Humans are an adaptable being, years of associating noise with cars won't disappear because of a few EVs about the place.

20-03-2012 3:21pm

RoverJames wrote: »

Humans are an adaptable being, years of associating noise with cars won't disappear because of a few EVs about the place.

You mean people learn not to use their eyes ?

I never cross anywhere without looking. If you ask me people walking around with headphones on their ears with music blasting is far more dangerous!

20-03-2012 3:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean people learn not to use their eyes ?.............

No, I mean people have learned to rely on their hearing more as cars make noise typically. The safe cross code was hammered into generations of Irish kids, listening was mentioned as well as looking iirc

28-03-2012 12:46pm

Okay based on 55 imp mpg the calculations are......

55 imp mpg divide by 4.54 litres in imp gallon = 12.11 miles per litre.

So 22.50 Euro's worth of diesel would get you 14.54 Litres.

14.54 Litres x 12.11 miles = 176 miles or 990 Euro's for 7744 miles or 12500 kms

Electricity would cost 160 Euro's per year total cost €1150 or 95 Euro's per month total battery rental including electricity to cover 12500 kms per year.

€1150 worth of diesel would get you 741 litres of diesel or 8892 miles or 14000 kms.

So based on the new calculations using imp mpg you loose 1500 kms based on 55 mpg v battery rental on zoe, not bad at all. Indeed the 55 mpg figures will not be seen in town and could go as little as 40-45 lowering the miles got and narrowing the actual real life gap between battery rental and diesel.

Of course anyone driving a petrol should seriously consider the change because the zoe e.v would actually work out cheaper.

So really the argument of ev's costing far more are now old and do not apply regarding the Renault range of e.v's and is a very brave step for Renault who will actually loose out big time over the 3 years, but should gain back most of the battery costs towards the end of the life of the battery.

Renault also take the risk of the battery and it makes total sense to convert to ev unless your daily mileage exceeds 100 miles round trip, or you can not possibly cope with waiting 30 mins on a charger or can't charge at work.

The diesel Clio higher spec works out about 1500 Euro's dearer than the Zoe which is higher spec again, 1500 =125 pm so you could easily go to a higher mileage limit if you wished, or if you only do the 12500 kms per year then the Zoe would actually save you 120 Euro's per month!!!

Anyone who can hop on the luas at the mad cow can charge there for free atm. afaik ?

28-03-2012 2:28pm

The renault clio auto would cost another 1500 extra and making the cost 3k more than the zoe. The zoe is a high spec car after all and is similar to an auto, in the fact there are no gears to change lol

I don't even see an auto version of the clio diesel on renaults site!

The road tax would also be around another 100 euro's!

Renault Zoe, would you buy it ?

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