The 80's Recession V's this one?

phil1nj

iguana wrote: »

As for so much of what is described on this thread as the great hardship of the 80s, I just don't get it. Sharing clothes with relatives was brilliant. Every year or so I'd get a bag of stuff from my mother's cousin, who was a few years older than me and it was fantastically exciting. Those EEC food parcels were great, bags of random free food, how could it not be fantastic.

Perhaps some people would see the EEC food parcels as a form of charity and this would then only strengthen the fact that parents, a lot of the time through no fault of their own, could not support themselves and/or provide for their loved ones because of the times they lived in. That stings people's pride and would not be viewed by myself as being something to be excited about. We also availed of intervention corned beef and butter that was made available to families during the eighties (white tins with balck lettering on it). We weren't exactly doing cartwheels when we picked it up though.

iguana wrote: »

As an adult I've always been relatively well off but I'm not a money waster. Apart from a mortgage I've never touched credit, nearly all my clothes are second hand, all my books/dvds/computers/tv/etc are. I either go to those super cheap hairdressers or cut my own hair, my bike is one my dad pulled out of a canal and fixed up for me. I've been shopping in Aldi/Lidl for over 10 years, in regular supermarkets I always check the nearly out of date stuff first (long before it's sudden popularity). I get most toiletries in pound/euro shops. If I wear make-up, which I usually don't, I get it in Aldi. I've always chosen the same financial lifestyle as that my parents lived in the 80s because it's a bloody sensible one.

I think people were more in the habit of saving for things during the last recession than now. For the majority of ordinary joe soaps the only other alternative for them were the dreaded money lenders and their punitive interest rates. As a result, if people needed something, they saved for it or did without. This practice, if kept up, probably would have saved some people a lot of hardship in the current recession as private debt (brought on by the allure of cheap credit) may not have been so high. It doesn't do anything for the property crisis or negative equity but that's a discussion for a separate thread.

I think people can be too extreme in their approachs to saving/frugality and unfortunately the current economic cycle that we are locked in to requires a constant churn of money out there to ensure that jobs are both created and sustained. It's striking a balance between the saving and spending aspect that is the difficult thing.

BostonB

iguana wrote: »

...As for so much of what is described on this thread as the great hardship of the 80s, I just don't get it....

Isn't the point that the 80's was more austere because people didn't have the facilities they have today. its a relative term. Its not like comparing the 1880 with the 1980's in terms of absolute hardship.

iguana

BostonB wrote: »

Isn't the point that the 80's was more austere because people didn't have the facilities they have today. its a relative term. Its not like comparing the 1880 with the 1980's in terms of absolute hardship.

What I mean is that I don't get why many of the things mentioned as hardships seem like hardships. For example getting handmedowns from friends/relatives is just good sense not a sign of hardship. As is sharing school books or covering them with old wallpaper to protect them.

PrincessLola

Do children not get hand-me-downs anymore?

Never mind the 80s, I grew up in the 90s and pretty much all my clothes came from my older cousins lol.

I don't consider that 'hardship' though.. Just that not all families went crazy with spending in the 'good times'

Wibbs

iguana wrote: »

What I mean is that I don't get why many of the things mentioned as hardships seem like hardships. For example getting handmedowns from friends/relatives is just good sense not a sign of hardship. As is sharing school books or covering them with old wallpaper to protect them.

+1. I think for many the mindset has changed. There would be a lot more of a "eeeugh that's old/second hand" vibe than back in the day. We bought into the consumer society more in the "boom". I've always looked for a bargain whenever possible and used stuff is one such avenue. I look at value first. If I had money I'd be rich. I'd also save for something or do without. Always paid with cash. No debts for me. Just doesn't sit well for me personally. Though I would be an extreme. Risk averse on that score. At the other end are people who hit the credit for everything and hang the consequences. There are a lot more of them. There's a balance to be struck between the two.

Biggins

iguana wrote: »

...The fact we always knew about finance and making the most of very little is something that has benefited me enormously. As an adult I've always been relatively well off but I'm not a money waster. Apart from a mortgage I've never touched credit, nearly all my clothes are second hand, all my books/dvds/computers/tv/etc are. I either go to those super cheap hairdressers or cut my own hair, my bike is one my dad pulled out of a canal and fixed up for me. I've been shopping in Aldi/Lidl for over 10 years, in regular supermarkets I always check the nearly out of date stuff first (long before it's sudden popularity). I get most toiletries in pound/euro shops. If I wear make-up, which I usually don't, I get it in Aldi. I've always chosen the same financial lifestyle as that my parents lived in the 80s because it's a bloody sensible one.

Sounds like you had wise and good parents indeed.
It seems the lessons you have learned in the past are a credit to you and because of they you will survive (hopefully) better.
A good few current of the society, ie, the more throw away society, have not learned these lessons - how could they to be honest!
...But some will if they have the sense to, learn this time around and never forget...

One things I always do now (amid a number of things) from previous experiences of the past, ALWAYS make sure I have enough food in the home for the morning, for our kids to eat when they rise.
Breakfast cereal of some basic good and healthy description, is always stocked good in our presses.
It sounds daft maybe but some things that happened and/or witnessed, have had their effect. I don't want to see images of the past, return upon our own.
I never want my kids to get up in the morning and say that there is nothing to eat even then.
You, iguana, it sounds like you too have learned well too, remember some old fashioned good practicable sense and put it to good use.
Many could learn from you!

BostonB

I think there's a difference between deciding to recycle clothes through the extended family, hand me downs, etc, or bargain hunting in 2nd hand clothes shops and not having any choice but to seek used clothes from outside the extended family. So I don't think you are all talking about the same thing.

One thing use you to see was patches and repairs on kids clothes. Pretty normal back then. These days it would unusual.

Biggins

BostonB wrote: »

...One thing use you to see was patches and repairs on kids clothes. Pretty normal back then. These days it would unusual.

Aye, funny, I forgot about that.
The brown patches on the elbows of many a school jumper including my own.
The memories...

gazzer

The 80's recession was definately worse.

Coddle twice a week for dinner (it was lovely though)
No such thing as having steak for dinner. It was Granby burgers all the way.

Going with my mother on the free bus from Cabra out to Crazy Prices once a week and hoping that the loud buzzer would go off so you could get your food even cheaper.

Parents never had spare money to go to the chipper for a treat, never saw the inside of a McDonalds until I was in my teens

My parents never got to go out to the cinema or on any type of date as there was no spare cash.

The vast majority of the clothes in the house were from Pennys and Dunnes.

If you even dared moan because Tommy down the road had a Nike top or pair of runners and why couldnt I have the same you would get a box.

Hand me down clothes was common amongst me and my brothers.

80% unemployment in the flats complex I lived in.

My parents rented a tv and they gave £1 a week to the person who came to the house collecting for Cablelink.

Wallpaper covered school books.

No car. For all of our communions and comfirmations it was a family bus ticket and out on Dublin Bus to visit all the relations.

No holidays (except for one week in Butlins in 1981)

We hadnt a pot to piss in and how my parents managed to rare us all on one wage and didnt have a nervous breakdown with then stress of trying to manage I will never know.


I honestly cant see how this current recession could be in any way worse than the 80's.

44leto

I recently said to my father, its amazing how cheap batteries are these days and he said you will find they are roughly the same price its just we have more money now.
Its something I was lucky enough to get a Christmas job in superquinn and what I wanted more then anything at that time was a walkman. So got the cash together and realising I would not be able to afford the batteries (the tape deck ate batteries) I bought a separate rechargeable unit and batteries. I also use to spend my Sunday afternoons taping some of the songs on top of the pops on the radio, LOL my first inroads into the world of piracy.

JupiterKid

One thing that strikes me is how many posters on web forums, when the subject of the 1980s and the recession (really a depression IMO) is discussed, recall how they lived in real poverty and hardship. I count myself as very fortunate that I was comfortably off growing up in the 80s but the recession of that time still touched my family and friends. Ireland was a much, much poorer country back then.

A survey carried out around 1988 showed that half of all children in Ireland were living in poverty. Half - that's a shocking figure.

People were much more frugal then - as others mentioned, saving up for things was the norm. There was very little credit available. Swapping things with mates, hand me downs, patched clothes, yellow and white pack goods (white pack was Superquinn's answer to yellow pack) were all the norm at the time. My parents really instilled the concept of treating money with care. Summer jobs in my teens to earn things that I wanted made me value the things I got with the money saved up. It was the same with all my friends. We all worked at something - cutting people's grass, doing a bit of gardening, newspaper rounds.

The amount of cars on the roads that were complete bangers was huge. And the roads themselves were in complete bits - little better than goat tracks. The country was governed very poorly for most of the 1980s with Fianna Fail's disastrous and reckless budgetary policies of the late 70s and early 80s making things far worse for Ireland than might otherwise have been. Does that ring any bells?

BostonB

gazzer wrote: »

...
I honestly cant see how this current recession could be in any way worse than the 80's.

Not yet. I suspect it will get worse though.

SomeFool

I remember the getting big tub of cheap margarine instead of butter, the tub would be used as a lunch box when it was used up.

bullpost

Maybe, but there's also the chance that we will ride this one out . The cost of that will be no increase in living standards for a long time and it will also be a long time before the economy recovers.
But I was told by a very wealthy individual at the beginning of this recession four years ago that there would shortly be widespread poverty and we need to get used to soup kitchens etc. Hasn't come to that yet.

BostonB wrote: »

Not yet. I suspect it will get worse though.

crapmanjoe

Some truly depressing stories here but up lifting at the same time - shows how far as a nation we came in a generation!

Yes times are tough and will remain so but the extra comforts definitely make the tough times more managable.

There is no answer as to which was the worst period - I think the 80's were tougher times to live in but the financial impact of this recession will take years / decades to recover from (purely from a private and national debt perspective).

As long as we stay in the Euro we will avoid the complete lack of credit, extreme interest rates and inflation rates that plagued the 80's

44leto

LOL Anyone remember the same bath water bathing a family. Hot water was also a luxury and central heating was only for the rich.

Biggins

44leto wrote: »

LOL Anyone remember the same bath water bathing a family. Hot water was also a luxury and central heating was only for the rich.

Big time!

44leto

Biggins wrote: »

Big time!

LOL
I was usually number 4 so when my turn came the bath was freezing and the water was ehhh, more soup.

A shower then was a basin of warm water and a face cloth.

Biggins

44leto wrote: »

LOL
I was usually number 4 so when my turn came the bath was freezing and the water was ehhh, more soup.

A shower then was a basin of warm water and a face cloth.

I was number three (of four).

MidlandsM

I was number 5..............Ughhhhhhh, still, did me no harm ehhhhhh

Dr Expired

Biggins wrote: »

The 80's depression (even a few years up to it) was far worse in a number of ways (to me anyway).
There was not as much avenues that could be seen, as to how to stimulate the economy back again.
We were still fairly new to the mechanisms of the EU and how things were done, on that alone sometimes we were feeling in the dark, having hit and miss opportunities and disasters till we slowly learned better.

There was also not (and this cannot be understated) so many charities and/or organisations that were willing, never mind able, to help out - even government help to those that were really down and broke - and I mean broke (I remember one day my mother, god bless her, having to bring food to a friend of hers who was heartbroken and depressed at not being able to provide for her children. The 4 kids the next morning really didn't have anything in the home to eat - not even a form of breakfast cereal.), so broke we shared shoes with other families and some clothing.
- I remember the provincial town hall center in my town having to hand out EU unbranded tinned food in plastic bags. All those that had nothing, took these tins and hoped for the best it was eatable. Oft times it wasn't. It was worse than dog food, looked and smelled like it.

My father bordered on the line of becoming an alcoholic at the time, such was the real stress and strain of trying daily to find work just to feed and clothe us.
The schools somehow managed to find money to feed some of the 'special' kids that had nothing - again, oft times not even books or pencils, things was that bad.
(School books was shared a lot more. It was normal to see class rooms with two desks shoved together, sharing books)
One of the first things a teacher would ask daily on entering a class would be "Ok, who's got a book? Do you mind sharing?"

There was no such thing as school trips/holidays away. I couldn't understand at the time why some kids got to go away for school trips and others had to stay at home on a regular basis. Be it one day trips or week trips abroad.
The money was just not there.

My father (electrician) we eventually said goodbye to, what seems like years.
He ended up down in the construction of the Channel tunnel, he ended up in Bermuda for a year on a construction site. He rarely came home during the times but always sent home what money he could.

Everyone we knew in our family was down and broke - and I mean everyone.
It was a terrible, terrible grey depressing time and it breaks my heart to see vestiges of it returning yet again so that in fear, my own kids might suffer from touches of a depression once again.

I am a man. I'm as stubborn and thick as any man can be at the grumpiest of times but will still admit to occasionally having tears in my eye when I look back at the previous times when things were really, really bad, when I look back at how my mother and father suffered - yet amazingly sacrificed food and clothes for themselves so my parents younger offspring could eat.

It was a truly awful time and for many, there seemed no way out. Our local river took many lives and with news of each death, everyone got more depressed.

Long story short, we (Ireland) didn't have the more means, resources, avenues, contacts, experience and much more, to be able to better our economy for some time.

I could go on but I've said enough for now.
The memories are still too painful.

wow....thats some story alright

Tiocfaidh Armani

I was born in 79 and can remember the ice inside the window in my bedroom, I got changed under the sheet going to school the house was that cold. We have it easy compared to them days.

the_syco

smash wrote: »

The 80's recession had nothing on this one. Mainly because in the 80's people weren't buying houses for 10/15 times their salaries or cars worth more than a years salary. The personal debt now compared to then is phenomenal.

Back then, people generally didn't spend what they didn't have. Now people do spend what they don't have, and further more expect the government to bail them out!

Duggys Housemate

Were the internet around in the 80's ( well were it more available, for as Usenet it was available) the people in the 80's would be remembering the much much poorer 50's, and decrying the luxury of the 80's - VHS, colour TVs, Walkmans. The rest of the Western world wasn't suffering then, in general it as a prosperous decade particularly towards the end.

At any rate, its not a bad life to start poor and end rich or better off. its worse to be born to a rich time and get poorer, which is the lot of modern youngsters.

K-9

Wibbs wrote: »

+1. I think for many the mindset has changed. There would be a lot more of a "eeeugh that's old/second hand" vibe than back in the day. We bought into the consumer society more in the "boom". I've always looked for a bargain whenever possible and used stuff is one such avenue. I look at value first. If I had money I'd be rich. I'd also save for something or do without. Always paid with cash. No debts for me. Just doesn't sit well for me personally. Though I would be an extreme. Risk averse on that score. At the other end are people who hit the credit for everything and hang the consequences. There are a lot more of them. There's a balance to be struck between the two.

Well the difference is consumerism was seen as the answer to everything, which was terrible for us, never mind countries used to prosperity like the US and the UK. In many ways it seems we got the idea of what we wanted to be from Dallas! The Mac Mansions a perfect example, massive 4*4's etc, the property obsession probably was fed by an inferiority complex from the 70/80's.

iPods and LCD TV's are just the newest gadget like VHS etc., my parents never had a video player to this day, gadgets are normal now, prevalent and mobile.

44leto wrote: »

LOL Anyone remember the same bath water bathing a family. Hot water was also a luxury and central heating was only for the rich.

My sister has a picture of the 2 of us as babies in the same bath!

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I was born in 79 and can remember the ice inside the window in my bedroom, I got changed under the sheet going to school the house was that cold. We have it easy compared to them days.

That's my recollection of mornings in the winters of the late 80's. The jeans would be fecking freezing when you went to put them on. And God forbid you put on a heater or the immersion for a shower!

We actually had oil heating, I think it was used once and was never refilled!

Somebody mentioned seeing the Da's wage slip earlier, I remember that and it was ridiculous for a supposedly well paid job. In 1987 the income tax rates were 35, 48 and 58% with PRSI on top and you didn't have to be on much to be on those rates.

Inflation was near 20% in the early 80's and Interest rates nearly always in the teens, reached 18/19% I think in the early 90's currency crisis, yep we had them in those days too!

LOL, I remember getting paid a pound an hout at 14 to lift glasses at the local hotel, £50 seemed like a hell of a lot of money, until the Mum tax!

hicklespickle

The 80's recession was much worse because today you see people driving expensive cars everywhere but in the 80's it was almost a miracle if you saw someone driving an expensive car around. Also, today people have loads of food in their fridge and cupboards but in the 80's the most you had was some bread and water and maybe butter.

Archeron

gcgirl wrote: »

Do you remember in August the yellow pack copy's just in time to get stocked up for September

Ha, my ma bought enough of them that we also got a free pack of matching pens. It all went well with the free ruler that came in a pack of spiceburgers (of all things)

smash

hicklespickle wrote: »

The 80's recession was much worse because today you see people driving expensive cars everywhere but in the 80's it was almost a miracle if you saw someone driving an expensive car around. Also, today people have loads of food in their fridge and cupboards but in the 80's the most you had was some bread and water and maybe butter.

Bullsh!t. Go back and read the thread will you.

Clareboy

As someone who lived through the 80s, there is no comparison between the present economic crisis and the recession of the 80s, it is far worse now.

In the 1980s, I always had a job and I always had a car. I could get married and buy a house. I also travelled the world - all on a hotel workers wages! No comparison between then and now!

At present, I have no job and no car, but at least I own my own house as I bought it in the 80s.

In the 80s, the banks did not fail and we did not have to call in the IMF

Also in the 80s, Irish workers did not have to compete with foreign migrants for jobs.

In the 80s, there was nothing like the level of personal debt that people nowadays are burdened with.

The present crisis - much much worse than anything every we have experienced in the 80s or anytime in the past.

Terry

Young people got greedy in the late 90's / early 2000's.
Too greedy.

I grew up in a council estate in the 80's (born in '75) where only every 5th house had a car.
When I say car, I mean a motor vehicle. A lot of those who drove had delivery vans or trucks.

Both of my parents worked. My Father was a postman and my Mother was a child minder.
Neither were high paying jobs, but we were comfortable.
I'm an only child, so we really didn't have it too bad back then.
When it came to Christmas and birthday presents, I always got more than my friends.
Yes. I was spoiled.

When my Mother died in '83 and I went to live with my Aunty, I saw how people actually were struggling.
This was a family with 8 children. The youngest is 9 years older than me and most of them left school early to work as either hairdressers or chefs. Back then you could leave school at 14 and get a job that paid £8 a week.
In fairness, most of them excelled in their fields and now own their own businesses, but that's neither here nor there. They worked for a pittance back then.

A large amount of my cousins' friends had emigrated at that stage. Most went to England.
Most of them came back after a couple of years though. (I have pics of the head of Ireland's largest model agency being welcomed home. Banners hanging from houses. Funny as ****). Those who stayed came back during the boom.

It was tough back then, but times were different.
One of the cousins who emigrated (He went to Jersey) came back here in the late 80's with a wife and child.
He bought a house in a private estate just up the road for £20,000, and that was a lot back then.
In order to get the house, he and his family lived with my Father until they had the 10% deposit saved up.
Yeah. £2,000. Sounds like nothing now, but it was a fortune back then. Took them about 6 months. During the boom, many of my friends earned that every 2 weeks.

My first (tax paying) job was in 1992. I was 16 and earned £1.64 an hour (Union rates).
The foreman was pulling in over £1,200 p/w. Granted it was a 70 hour week, but that was the beginning of the madness.
We were working on the building of an Intel FAB. The low corporate tax rate allowed for the big wages (once you were over 21 or a qualified tradesman).

This, as far as I'm concerned, was the beginning of the madness.
Labourers were pulling in about £700 p/w for doing next to nothing.
You could buy a house in Leixlip for about £80,000 back then, so a labourer could afford a mortgage on their own.
It just got worse.

When I was well enough to work during the boom, I made between €100 to €150 a day, and I did little or nothing for it. Honestly, all I really did was carry a few boxes of tiles around, do some grouting and then have a smoke.
Money was just thrown around. Nobody seemed to care about it.
It was great, but there was no way it could last.

Is this as bad as the 80's?
I honestly don't think it is.
PAYE is lower than it should be.

Now you could say that the dole gives people too much, but try telling that to the 400,000+ people who are struggling right now.

If PAYE was brought back to 1980's rates, we wouldn't be too long coming out of this recession.

We all need to realise that the only way to get back on our feet is to get rid of the stealth taxes and to just have upfront taxes. No government will do that though. They all want their big bucks for screwing us over in the short term.

Yes, it will be a struggle, but it will be a shorter struggle than the one we're currently facing.

Also, more power needs to be given to social workers when it comes to single Mothers and the housing scams going on.
More power needs to be given to community welfare officers too because there are too many foreigners screwing the system.
More investigations into welfare tourists too. I know quite a of of Irish people who are working in England and still claiming the dole here.
We need to go back to having people sign on once a week instead of once a month. If you're unemployed, then you can quite easily sign on once a week.