England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

phog

dougieruggie wrote: »

We were 3pts down with a crumbling scrum before they came on.

I dont know what would have happened but I do know TOL cost us 14pts and that ROG gave away enourmous amounts of posession.

Both were awful and hopefully for the good of the national team, we never see either of them in green again.

TOL had no choice but to ground that ball and gave England a 5m scrum that was 7 points, where do you blame him for the other 7?

If ROG gave away enormous amount of pocession what do you say about the rest of the players that knocked on, kicked stupidly, passed poorly and ran poorly. Did you see Darcy play, what do you say about him, how about Kearney knocking on in his own 22?

leftleg

phog wrote: »

TOL had no choice but to ground that ball and gave England a 5m scrum that was 7 points, where do you blame him for the other 7?

If ROG gave away enormous amount of pocession what do you say about the rest of the players that knocked on, kicked stupidly, passed poorly and ran poorly. Did you see Darcy play, what do you say about him, how about Kearney knocking on in his own 22?

TOL didnt cost us 14 points; he was still dire and should never have been on the team sheet; that is all down to Kidney; awful decision and i actually feel sorry for TOL; he doesnt make the teamsheet; Eddie does

phog

ironingbored wrote: »

Straight from the Fr. Declan school of thought:

I find this very insulting and disrepectful.

irishbucsfan

GerM wrote: »

Don't think Sexton has anything to worry about. Madigan is getting a lot of hype as the new kid on the block this season. His progression in the weak areas of his game is very slow though. Sexton had HEC starts, an ML medal and a HEC medal in his pocket at 23. There's more chance of Madigan being used as a second playmaker from 15 than Sexton moving out the line, and there's very little chance of that either.

Listing Sexton's accomplishments isn't quite fair. That's like listing O'Gara's international caps v. Sexton at the same age.

Madigan is a better player at the moment than Sexton was at that age. He's had an easier development curve though thanks to the solidity at 10 that Leinster didn't have under Cheika when D'Arcy was out. Sexton's decision making was far worse than Madigan's, especially under pressure.

Madigan's biggest leaps in development have come at the end of seasons thus far though. I'll be interested to see where he is during the next AIs.

Madigan needs to develop a possessionless game though. Sexton has it. He needs to be comfortable in a team that is looking to play territory. He's not nearly there yet.

I don't think Sexton is going to come under pressure in the short term, but Madigan's attacking game is just superb. Who knows, maybe we'll see Schmidt rotate our 10s home and away? That'll really confuse some Ireland fans.

phog

leftleg wrote: »

TOL didnt cost us 14 points; he was still dire and should never have been on the team sheet; that is all down to Kidney; awful decision and i actually feel sorry for TOL; he doesnt make the teamsheet; Eddie does

I'm not saying TOL was good but I did think at the time Kidney needed to make the change, it didn't work out.

ironingbored

phog wrote: »

TOL had no choice but to ground that ball and gave England a 5m scrum that was 7 points, where do you blame him for the other 7?

I thought that TOL could have waited a split second for the ball to over the line and then ground.

My oul fella (a Lunster through and through ) even said that TOL was shocking for Munster recently and didn't know how he was near the Ireland team.

I felt sorry for the guy he was so bad. It's impossible to turn down a call from your country if it comes but the buck stops with the coach in picking him.

Monty Burnz

phog wrote: »

TOL had no choice but to ground that ball and gave England a 5m scrum that was 7 points, where do you blame him for the other 7?

Watch it again - I think he had a choice. He should have caught it and tried to make space for a kick inside the dead-ball area. Instead he caught it and was clearly undecided what to do so he dawdled. I've seen countless players in identical situations get that kick away.

Worst case scenario - he gets caught TIG and it's a 5-metre scrum. Best case scenario - a lineout to defend around the 22.

phog

ironingbored wrote: »

I thought that TOL could have waited a split second for the ball to over the line and then ground.

My oul fella (a Lunster through and through ) even said that TOL was shocking for Munster recently and didn't know how he was near the Ireland team.

I felt sorry for the guy he was so bad. It's impossible to turn down a call from your country if it comes but the buck stops with the coach in picking him.

What would everyone be saying if TOL waited and an English player ran up and touched down the ball for a try. Think back to Rob Howley in the H/Cup a few years back. Easy be wise afterwards.

Monty Burnz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who knows, maybe we'll see Schmidt rotate our 10s home and away? That'll really confuse some Ireland fans.

Nah - they will still prefer ROG... :pac:

leftleg

phog wrote: »

I'm not saying TOL was good but I did think at the time Kidney needed to make the change, it didn't work out.

The change we needed was uncontested scrums; This is the last thing i am going to post on this topic as id rather it all got locked away and forgotten about asap;

1. Mike Ross is indispensable to the Irish Team; He is our only Tight Head and he's a good one at that.

2. Declan needs to bring through talent at scrum half; He needs a decent 3rd choice; he needs to give Marshall a go.

3. D'arcy is finished at international level; maybe he's having a crisis of confidence or just missing BOD; whatever it is, its affected his game in a major way.

4. Tom Court is a good loose head but should never be included on an international team sheet at tight head again. I would not put any blame on him for the front row performance last night. This is the coachs ship; he made the decisions all the way through.

5. Keith Earls is a 13 and I must apologise to all the people who spoke him up and i doubted. I was wrong. he has good form at 13.

6. D. Ryan simply has to have the 4 shirt from now on. He was great yesterday and stood out a mile. well played.

7. DOC has been great but needs to be consigned to the "seeing the game" out crew at most. Maybe replaced all together by Dan Touhy.

8. Jamie Hagan needs game time at Leinster and International level; he needs to be progressed asap; I just have no idea of he's up to it yet but he has to take the plunge sometime; sooner rather than later.

9. Sexton is a 10 not a 12; Im not going into axis talk; just keeping it simple hes an amazing 10 and an unspectacular 12. I just dont understand the fascination with moving him from 10.

10. Heaslip was awful yesterday; I have been defending him here, but i do think he too is suffereing a bit of a confidence dip as is SOB.

Thats what i took from the game. We do need a new coach as the this team needs alot of changing around and i don't think Declan like changing lots of things around. He has proved in the past that he can change things around but i dont think he makes good choices in terms of what he changes around hence always plying the same players.

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Madigan is a better player at the moment than Sexton was at that age. He's had an easier development curve though thanks to the solidity at 10 that Leinster didn't have under Cheika when D'Arcy was out. Sexton's decision making was far worse than Madigan's, especially under pressure.

Think I may have had this debate before with you before IBF! Suffice to say, I reckon Sexton was a more accomplished and rounded player at that age. I'd be far less confident of Madigan being called on the start a HEC final this season than I was in 2009 with Sexton who had achieved much more by then at 23 (which Madigan turns this week). Madigan is the best natural attacker in the country with the ball in hand but his control and defence are still way off the mark.

dougieruggie

phog wrote: »

TOL had no choice but to ground that ball and gave England a 5m scrum that was 7 points, where do you blame him for the other 7?

The quick tap try where TOL just went to sleep was the other one. And he did have a choice on the first one and it was the wrong one.

dougieruggie

9.Marshall
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.Madigan
13.Fitzgerald
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

That would be some attacking backline.

phog

dougieruggie wrote: »

The quick tap try where TOL just went to sleep was the other one. And he did have a choice on the first one and it was the wrong one.

15 players went to sleep there, they all expected another scrum. Hard to single out one player for that.

thomond2006

leftleg wrote: »

3. D'arcy is finished at international level; maybe he's having a crisis of confidence or just missing BOD; whatever it is, its affected his game in a major way.

Nothing to do with missing BOD, he played with BOD all through the 2011 6N and was poor.

D'Arcy was a top class player in his pomp, but thanks to this inept management who can't select to save their lives, he is being kept in the team whilst in woeful form, which is ruining his legacy as a great rugby player.

JRant

thomond2006 wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

3. D'arcy is finished at international level; maybe he's having a crisis of confidence or just missing BOD; whatever it is, its affected his game in a major way.

Nothing to do with missing BOD, he played with BOD all through the 2011 6N and was poor.

D'Arcy was a top class player in his pomp, but thanks to this inept management who can't select to save their lives, he is being kept in the team whilst in woeful form, which is ruining his legacy as a great rugby player.

We've seen this play out before, most notably with the 'Bull'. The thing is with the 6N's only being 5 games you really need your form players on the field from the b of the bang. You can't wait for players to play there way into form in such a short time frame.
The really dissapointing thing is that we no next to nothing about our squad atm. All we can do is speculate on certain players who may or may not make it at International level but if they can't get on the pitch we'll never know.

phog

The timelines where Ireland turned over the ball or score against them. I think I've covered everything.

00.11 Reddan boxkicks leads to knock on
01.08 England awarded penalty from the scrum – Score 3 – 0
03.85 Irish LO, Heaslip knocks on
05.00 Garryowen by Kearney into England’s 22, Foden kicks to touch to our 10m line.
06.28 Reddan boxkicks, Bowe taps back, Botha collects and breaks to our 10m
10.12 Ryan loses the ball forward in contact.
10.59 Kearney’s attempted drop goal rebounds, Ferris penalised for offside
16.30 Reddan boxkicks, England gather
18.07 SOB penalised
19.00 Darcy’s loses the ball in an attempt to pass
20.00 Scrum penalised – England kick for touch
21.30 Sexton knocks on in the tackle, Scrum to England, Ireland penalised in the scrum, England kick for the posts, Score now 6 – 0
25.09 Darcy’s attempted dropgoal is blocked down
27.39 Kearney runs into his own player, scrum to England
29.04 England win our scrum and Morgan breaks up the field
29.17 Ireland turnover the ball and Darcy kicks the ball out in the full
32.13 Ryan knocks on
33.39 England win our scrum
34.03 Best penalised – Score now 9-3
36.06 Reddan delays with ball in hand, then passes to Darcy who is blinded by white shirts
36.56 Inside England’s 22, Ireland maul from lineout and lose the ball in the maul.
38.19 Poor pass from Trimble to Bowe, knock on. Scrum to England.

Halftime

40.43 Healy loses ball in the ruck
41.17 Reddan boxkicks, Ashton gathers
42.28 Irish scrum, ball won by England but knocked on
43.06 Irish Scrum, Reddan hesitates about passing to Ferris, leads to a knock on
43.55 England scrum
45.10 Reddan boxkicks when his runners are under the ruck, Foden gathers and counters, Croft knocks on inside our 22. – Scrum to Ireland
46.26 Ireland penalised in the scrum, kick at posts. Score 12 – 6
49.14 England get a scrum inside their 22
52.03 TOL boxkicks, straight to touch
54.40 TOL has to chase back, touches down for a 5m scrum to England
58.05 Penalty try from resulting scrums Score 19- 9
60.52 TOL boxkick, England retakes the ball
61.52 TOL poor pass to Bowe, knock on, Scrum to England
64.00 Scrum penalised, penalty to England, Score 22 – 9
64.48 ROG restarts, Bowe taps back but no Irish player available, England regather
65.06 Farrell kicks for touch, bounces between Heaslip and Bowe as they watch it bounce into touch
65.47 Poor pass from ROG, Earls gathers and makes a break to inside England’s 22
66.03 TOL crossfield chip to Heaslip, into touch
67.30 SOB knocks on from a pass from TOL
68.28 Ireland penalised in an English scrum kick to touch, kept in by Bowe
69.15 TOL boxkicks into touch
70.03 Kearney knocks on inside our 22 – scrum to England
71.25 Sexton’s rebound pass to Earls goes to ground, knock on. Scrum to England
73.05 Ireland penalised in the scrum, quick tap and go, try scored. Score 27 – 9
75.40 Knock on from lineout
76.09 Offside – penalty to England Score 30 -9

It was a tough day in the office for the lads, so disappointing.

Lelantos

leftleg wrote: »

phog wrote: »

I'm not saying TOL was good but I did think at the time Kidney needed to make the change, it didn't work out.

The change we needed was uncontested scrums; This is the last thing i am going to post on this topic as id rather it all got locked away and forgotten about asap;

1. Mike Ross is indispensable to the Irish Team; He is our only Tight Head and he's a good one at that.

2. Declan needs to bring through talent at scrum half; He needs a decent 3rd choice; he needs to give Marshall a go.

3. D'arcy is finished at international level; maybe he's having a crisis of confidence or just missing BOD; whatever it is, its affected his game in a major way.

4. Tom Court is a good loose head but should never be included on an international team sheet at tight head again. I would not put any blame on him for the front row performance last night. This is the coachs ship; he made the decisions all the way through.

5. Keith Earls is a 13 and I must apologise to all the people who spoke him up and i doubted. I was wrong. he has good form at 13.

6. D. Ryan simply has to have the 4 shirt from now on. He was great yesterday and stood out a mile. well played.

7. DOC has been great but needs to be consigned to the "seeing the game" out crew at most. Maybe replaced all together by Dan Touhy.

8. Jamie Hagan needs game time at Leinster and International level; he needs to be progressed asap; I just have no idea of he's up to it yet but he has to take the plunge sometime; sooner rather than later.

9. Sexton is a 10 not a 12; Im not going into axis talk; just keeping it simple hes an amazing 10 and an unspectacular 12. I just dont understand the fascination with moving him from 10.

10. Heaslip was awful yesterday; I have been defending him here, but i do think he too is suffereing a bit of a confidence dip as is SOB.

Thats what i took from the game. We do need a new coach as the this team needs alot of changing around and i don't think Declan like changing lots of things around. He has proved in the past that he can change things around but i dont think he makes good choices in terms of what he changes around hence always plying the same players.

Is it not worth remembering that we have 4 provinces, and it seems if you play for connaught you dont figure in the managements plans. That leaves us with Ulster, Munster & Leinster, take away the foreign players, that leaves us with à pool of 60 players roughly. This needs to be increased significantly I'm order for us to remain competitive on the international stage. The IRFU have appointed Mark Blair recently as a scout charged with finding overseas players, of Irish birth, or Irish parentage, and bringing them into the setup, personally I think this is necessary to increase our talent pool.

Monty Burnz

Lelantos wrote: »

Is it not worth remembering that we have 4 provinces, and it seems if you play for connaught you dont figure in the managements plans. That leaves us with Ulster, Munster & Leinster, take away the foreign players, that leaves us with à pool of 60 players roughly. This needs to be increased significantly I'm order for us to remain competitive on the international stage. The IRFU have appointed Mark Blair recently as a scout charged with finding overseas players, of Irish birth, or Irish parentage, and bringing them into the setup, personally I think this is necessary to increase our talent pool.

+1

I don't know if the money can be found, but if we can run either a fully-fledged Connacht or an Irish 7s team, it will be a great help in bringing players through. Ideally we would have both.

Tox56

Lelantos wrote: »

Is it not worth remembering that we have 4 provinces, and it seems if you play for connaught you dont figure in the managements plans. That leaves us with Ulster, Munster & Leinster, take away the foreign players, that leaves us with à pool of 60 players roughly. This needs to be increased significantly I'm order for us to remain competitive on the international stage. The IRFU have appointed Mark Blair recently as a scout charged with finding overseas players, of Irish birth, or Irish parentage, and bringing them into the setup, personally I think this is necessary to increase our talent pool.

That made our national football team a laughing stock and it's not necessary at all, we have plenty of people to chose from, it's just Kidney has only 22 and that's it.

leftleg

dougieruggie wrote: »

9.Marshall
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.Madigan
13.Fitzgerald
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

Coach; Declan Kideny

That would be some attacking backline.

Really; not anymore

OldRio

Tox56 wrote: »

That made our national football team a laughing stock and it's not necessary at all, we have plenty of people to chose from, it's just Kidney has only 22 and that's it.

Laughing stock ????

Monty Burnz

OldRio wrote: »

Laughing stock ????

You must be too young to remember everyone laughing at us as we got to the quarter finals of WC'90 and nearly reached the semis in Euro'88...

Of course, in recent years nobody has really noticed us at all.

leftleg

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You must be too young to remember everyone laughing at us as we got to the quarter finals of WC'90 and nearly reached the semis in Euro'88...

Of course, in recent years nobody has really noticed us at all.

Really I remember being particularly proud of those teams and what they achieved;

Tox56

By laughing stock I meant the running joke about X player from another country and his great-great-great grandfather in-law knew a guy who owned an Irish Wolfhound and therefore he can play for Ireland.

It's not the point, we don't need to "bring in" Irish players from other countries because our talent pool is too small, we have plenty to chose from they just aren't being chosen.

sting60

Monty Burnz wrote: »

+1

I don't know if the money can be found, but if we can run either a fully-fledged Connacht or an Irish 7s team, it will be a great help in bringing players through. Ideally we would have both.

There will be no investment in all counties because the people in power have their little nest and dont want any eggs to fall out.Just look at the Aviva stadium one end looks like an unfinished building site with steel guirders everywhere.It should never have been built where it stands but the nest minders did not want leave their nest.Cromwell was right.

OldRio

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You must be too young to remember everyone laughing at us as we got to the quarter finals of WC'90 and nearly reached the semis in Euro'88...

Of course, in recent years nobody has really noticed us at all.

Too Young???
I remember when we played in front of a couple of thousand fans in the 60's if thats old enough for you.

AS for laughing at us. It was called envy. Success brings it.

OldRio

sting60 wrote: »

There will be no investment in all counties because the people in power have their little nest and dont want any eggs to fall out.Just look at the Aviva stadium one end looks like an unfinished building site with steel guirders everywhere.It should never have been built where it stands but the nest minders did not want leave their nest.Cromwell was right.

IMHO Overcooked your good point with that last sentence

Monty Burnz

OldRio wrote: »

Too Young???
I remember when we played in front of a couple of thousand fans in the 60's if thats old enough for you.

AS for laughing at us. It was called envy. Success brings it.

I think you may have missed the ironic tone of my post.

OldRio

Tox56 wrote: »

By laughing stock I meant the running joke about X player from another country and his great-great-great grandfather in-law knew a guy who owned an Irish Wolfhound and therefore he can play for Ireland.

It's not the point, we don't need to "bring in" Irish players from other countries because our talent pool is too small, we have plenty to chose from they just aren't being chosen.

The grandparent rule was a damn site better than allowing some guy to play in another country for a few years and then represent that country.