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Ireland v Scotland -Aviva Stadium - Saturday 10th March 5pm

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    #902
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Watching that Gray try again there and Bowe was taken out, I dont see much difference in that and the penalty Bowe himself gave away when he took the Scotting player out off the ball.

    He shot up, ball didnt go and he collided with the Scottish player. Penalty. Switch it and the Scottish player comes up looking for the offload, Gray didnt give it, he collides with Bowe stopping him from tackling Gray and nothing is said.


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    #903
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    lemansky wrote: »
    About two minutes in...posted the last one to buy me some time :pac:


    That's the one.


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    #904
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    leakyboots wrote: »
    Did something similar for the second Davies try in the Aviva, neglected to tackle anyone as last man



    (Can't link the exact time for some reason but go to 1m15s in the video)

    That's pretty much the same situation. Davies has players outside of him. Kearney does what any good fullback does and covers by leaving it to the last second. Davies was surrounded by green shirts and should've been taken out before he got near Kearney.


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    #905
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    MungBean wrote: »
    Watching that Gray try again there and Bowe was taken out, I dont see much difference in that and the penalty Bowe himself gave away when he took the Scotting player out off the ball.

    He shot up, ball didnt go and he collided with the Scottish player. Penalty. Switch it and the Scottish player comes up looking for the offload, Gray didnt give it, he collides with Bowe stopping him from tackling Gray and nothing is said.

    Hard to tell at that angle, but I thought Gray just fended Bowe off with ball in hand?


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    #906
    Hippo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭Hippo


    .ak wrote: »
    Hard to tell at that angle, but I thought Gray just fended Bowe off with ball in hand?

    I was certain at the time that another Scot had taken Bowe out, but my recording didn't work so have no way of checking


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    #907
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    .ak wrote: »
    Hard to tell at that angle, but I thought Gray just fended Bowe off with ball in hand?

    Around 1.28ish I think its Hogg who gets in between Bowe and Gray and bowles him over pretty much, Gray does get a hand to Bowe too but Hogg definitely took him out. Whether Bowe would have stopped him or not I dont know but is it relevant if Bowe was taken out anyway ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OZnj2JH74


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    #908
    vetinari
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭vetinari


    As a Munster fan, I have to say this tactic of ROG coming on and Sexton moving to 12 is embarrassing. O Gara has been a great servant for Ireland but should not be favoured in this way.

    The tactic makes absolutely no sense. It increases the injury risk for Sexton and also prevents the likes of McFadden from getting game time at 12. Darcy hasn't too many years left. We need to be blooding new 12s not putting our best 10 there!!


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    #909
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Hippo wrote: »
    I was certain at the time that another Scot had taken Bowe out, but my recording didn't work so have no way of checking
    MungBean wrote: »
    Around 1.28ish I think its Hogg who gets in between Bowe and Gray and bowles him over pretty much, Gray does get a hand to Bowe too but Hogg definitely took him out. Whether Bowe would have stopped him or not I dont know but is it relevant if Bowe was taken out anyway ?

    Yeah it was Hogg all right. He was running a line for the off-load and collided with Bowe. Nothing in it really.
    vetinari wrote: »
    As a Munster fan, I have to say this tactic of ROG coming on and Sexton moving to 12 is embarrassing. O Gara has been a great servant for Ireland but should not be favoured in this way.

    The tactic makes absolutely no sense. It increases the injury risk for Sexton and also prevents the likes of McFadden from getting game time at 12. Darcy hasn't too many years left. We need to be blooding new 12s not putting our best 10 there!!

    Yeah I'd agree with that. We need to be looking at a replacement for Darce at this stage and Sexton obviously isn't it. Some of the substitutions were just strange. Reddan coming off when he did, putting your OH to inside centre, then your winger/outside centre to full-back, another winger into the centre and a centre to the wing just seems very bizarre to me.


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    #910
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,795 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Hippo wrote: »
    I was certain at the time that another Scot had taken Bowe out, but my recording didn't work so have no way of checking
    MungBean wrote: »
    Around 1.28ish I think its Hogg who gets in between Bowe and Gray and bowles him over pretty much, Gray does get a hand to Bowe too but Hogg definitely took him out. Whether Bowe would have stopped him or not I dont know but is it relevant if Bowe was taken out anyway ?

    Yeah it was Hogg all right. He was running a line for the off-load and collided with Bowe. Nothing in it really.
    vetinari wrote: »
    As a Munster fan, I have to say this tactic of ROG coming on and Sexton moving to 12 is embarrassing. O Gara has been a great servant for Ireland but should not be favoured in this way.

    The tactic makes absolutely no sense. It increases the injury risk for Sexton and also prevents the likes of McFadden from getting game time at 12. Darcy hasn't too many years left. We need to be blooding new 12s not putting our best 10 there!!

    Yeah I'd agree with that. We need to be looking at a replacement for Darce at this stage and Sexton obviously isn't it. Some of the substitutions were just strange. Reddan coming off when he did, putting your OH to inside centre, then your winger/outside centre to full-back, another winger into the centre and a centre to the wing just seems very bizarre to me.

    It was also surprising he didn't give Fez a break either. There was a few combo's that could have been played. Moving Ryan to 6 and getting McCarthy on or bring on Jenno and put POM at 6.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #911
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    JRant wrote: »
    It was also surprising he didn't give Fez a break either. There was a few combo's that could have been played. Moving Ryan to 6 and getting McCarthy on or bring on Jenno and put POM at 6.

    Whatever about shifting players around I was disappointed he didn't get McCarthy on a little earlier. He's been in great form this season and deserved a chance to show what he can do, which he didn't get.


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    #912
    prospect
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭prospect


    Back to the game and apologies if this was covered earlier:

    Can I ask;
    Sextons crossfield kick to Bowe that resulted in a penalty to Scotland because Bowe didn't release the ball on the ground (attempting to ground it for a try).
    Why was the Scottish player not penalised for not releasing Bowe? He tackled him, Bowe went to ground and the Scottish player continued to wrestle with him on the ground.


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    #913
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Whatever about shifting players around I was disappointed he didn't get McCarthy on a little earlier. He's been in great form this season and deserved a chance to show what he can do, which he didn't get.
    Deccie seems to treat all backs the same; as being completely interchangeable in all back positions. If it remotely looks like working, he'll do it ad nauseum and always try o keep the most experienced players on the pitch (in his opinion). Hence McFadden and McCarthy only getting a few minutes relative to the other substitutes.

    Must be very frustrating for the players concerned and Sexton must be scratching his head.


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    #914
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    prospect wrote: »
    Back to the game and apologies if this was covered earlier:

    Can I ask;
    Sextons crossfield kick to Bowe that resulted in a penalty to Scotland because Bowe didn't release the ball on the ground (attempting to ground it for a try).
    Why was the Scottish player not penalised for not releasing Bowe? He tackled him, Bowe went to ground and the Scottish player continued to wrestle with him on the ground.
    Dis Bowe get penalised for not releasing? I thought that over the line, the ball was out of play and the tackle and release laws didn't apply. :confused:


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    #915
    ongarite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,214 ✭✭✭ongarite


    prospect wrote: »
    Can I ask;
    Sextons crossfield kick to Bowe that resulted in a penalty to Scotland because Bowe didn't release the ball on the ground (attempting to ground it for a try).
    Why was the Scottish player not penalised for not releasing Bowe? He tackled him, Bowe went to ground and the Scottish player continued to wrestle with him on the ground.

    Supposedly the rules state that the defending player doesn't have to release the opposing player from a tackle when in the goal line area.


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    #916
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Yeah it was Hogg all right. He was running a line for the off-load and collided with Bowe. Nothing in it really.

    Its still interference/crossing etc. He took Bowe out off the ball and stopped him from making a tackle. Bowe was pinged for something similar even though it didnt interfere with play.


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    #917
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    rrpc wrote: »
    Dis Bowe get penalised for not releasing? I thought that over the line, the ball was out of play and the tackle and release laws didn't apply. :confused:

    The penalty was for a double move I think, Scottish player doesnt have to release but Bowe only has one move to ground the ball and touch judge saw it as more than one move and as such foul play.


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    #918
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    MungBean wrote: »
    rrpc wrote: »
    Dis Bowe get penalised for not releasing? I thought that over the line, the ball was out of play and the tackle and release laws didn't apply. :confused:

    The penalty was for a double move I think, Scottish player doesnt have to release but Bowe only has one move to ground the ball and touch judge saw it as more than one move and as such foul play.
    IF it was in goal. Which they adjudged that it was, then "double movement" doesnt apply similar to tackler releasing. Double movement is just an extension of the holding rule.


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    #919
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    MungBean wrote: »
    The penalty was for a double move I think, Scottish player doesnt have to release but Bowe only has one move to ground the ball and touch judge saw it as more than one move and as such foul play.

    If the Scottish player doesn't have to release Bowe then Bowe has as many attempts as he wants to try and ground the ball. If they're in-goal then they stay at it til the ref blows it up, if they're not in goal then the Scottish player would have had to release Bowe as well. Should have been a scrum 5 for held up or a try. At least that's what I think, I could be woefully wrong (and I haven't looked at it again to see where Bowe was exactly).


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    #920
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭fitz


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    IF it was in goal. Which they adjudged that it was, then "double movement" doesnt apply similar to tackler releasing. Double movement is just an extension of the holding rule.

    Yeah...tbh, I think they made a balls of that call.
    Should have been a try.


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    #921
    castie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    IF it was in goal. Which they adjudged that it was, then "double movement" doesnt apply similar to tackler releasing. Double movement is just an extension of the holding rule.

    Yes but he grounded it outside the in goal area with his first attempt and in my opinion then exposing himself to the holding rule as youve put it.
    Hence with his second try which is then over the line he has infringed.


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    #922
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭fitz


    castie wrote: »
    Yes but he grounded it outside the in goal area with his first attempt and in my opinion then exposing himself to the holding rule as youve put it.
    Hence with his second try which is then over the line he has infringed.

    I thought he only grounded it once.
    Can hardly say the ball was held up either, as the defender didn't have hands on the ball...


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    #923
    prospect
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭prospect


    castie wrote: »
    Yes but he grounded it outside the in goal area with his first attempt and in my opinion then exposing himself to the holding rule as youve put it.
    Hence with his second try which is then over the line he has infringed.

    IF that was the case (and I am not saying it was or wasn't), surely the Scottish player would have been equally guilty of not releasing the tackled player.


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    #924
    prospect
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭prospect


    Footage is here @ 2:00 minutes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAMvE6Iw0o


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    #925
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭fitz


    prospect wrote: »
    Footage is here @ 2:00 minutes:

    Clearly only one grounding.
    If they're both judged to be in-goal, allowing the tackler to hold on, then what did Bowe do wrong?
    Looking at it again, I'm even more convinced it should have stood.


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    #926
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    fitz wrote: »
    Clearly only one grounding.
    If they're both judged to be in-goal, allowing the tackler to hold on, then what did Bowe do wrong?
    Looking at it again, I'm even more convinced it should have stood.
    I've never actually seen a rugby union law that specifically defines and penalises 'double movement'. The concept appears in rugby league alright, but in union you can specifically reach out when tackled and ground the ball for a try, but that's described as being 'in the same movement'. You can't attempt to get up when held and move closer to the line to score though.


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    #927
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Does it matter that the tackle was made in the field of play ? Either way I suppose its either not releasing or not a double move I suppose. Its an odd one alright.


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    #928
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭fitz


    MungBean wrote: »
    Does it matter that the tackle was made in the field of play ? Either way I suppose its either not releasing or not a double move I suppose. Its an odd one alright.

    I remember thinking at the time...I couldn't think of any reason to not award it.
    Tbh, I think it caught the officials on the hop.


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    #929
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    MungBean wrote: »
    Does it matter that the tackle was made in the field of play ? Either way I suppose its either not releasing or not a double move I suppose. Its an odd one alright.
    Tackle was completed in the scoring area. Or rather wasn't completed in the field of play.

    So effectively Morrison was in the right to cling onto Bowe. However if he was in the right to cling onto Bowe then Bowe was in the right to ground the ball, which makes it a try in my opinion.


    It matters a great deal to Bowe breaking the try scoring record unfortunately.


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    #930
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    I have another observation regarding the Bowe non-try.

    It looked very close to the Scottish player taking him in the air while he was making the catch, not sure if Bowe had a leg on the ground though??

    My initial thoughts were no-try, but confused over the penalty, difference between that and a ruck being held up over the line?? If the ball and man were held up then scrum attacking team - anything that happens afterwards is irrelevant (unless dangerous play).

    Am I wrong?


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    #931
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Tackle was completed in the scoring area. Or rather wasn't completed in the field of play.

    So effectively Morrison was in the right to cling onto Bowe. However if he was in the right to cling onto Bowe then Bowe was in the right to ground the ball, which makes it a try in my opinion.


    It matters a great deal to Bowe breaking the try scoring record unfortunately.
    (e)

    Tackled near the goal line. If a player is tackled near to the opponents’ goal line so that this player can immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line, a try is scored.

    I take it this is what the touch judge based his decision on. He judged that Bowe did not immediately ground the ball.

    Some may see it as this though.
    (d)

    Momentum try. If an attacking player with the ball is tackled short of the goal line but the player’s momentum carries the player in a continuous movement along the ground into the opponents’ in-goal, and the player is first to ground the ball, a try is scored.

    If its the first then a penalty for a double movement was probably the wrong call and if its the second it was try. I'd agree with you and say its a try as I think his momentum carried him into the in goal area the ball wasnt held up and there is nothing he can be penalised for.


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