SF Aengus O'Snodaigh has claimed €50,000 in expenses for Printer Ink

yourpics

lugha wrote: »

Can you cite even one example of a politician who suffered at the ballot box as a consequence of their unethical, or even illegal, behaviour? I, can not.

Any member of FF who was not elected last time out.
All of the Green Party.

Liam Byrne

john reilly wrote: »

this thread should be renamed the f.g and their friends in the media will try anything to distract from the balls they are making of the country

Really? So how do you explain my objection to this unjustified waste of our money, given that I'm not FG, nowhere near being a friend of theirs, and I object to ALL con-men wasting our money ?

You see, even if I've made the mistake of voting for someone who later turns out to be corrupt, I'll not only object but I'll turn on them for betraying my vote.

Those who blindly defend the indefensible regardless of what goes on are as bad as the FF brigade who led us into this mess by turning a blind eye to THEIR corruption.

It is actually possible to object to all corruption, you know....all you have to do is study the act and ignore who did it.

JustinDee

john reilly wrote: »

how many posters are from his constituency. maybe he doesnt want to offend or corrupt their anti republican sensibilities and only sends them to people who would have an open mind

Lol.
Classic .

Maybe just a simple case of guilty as a puppy next to a pile of poo.

raymon

lugha wrote: »

agreed!


But why do you think they will? They never have before! My reservation is empirically based. The electorate simply have not punished politicians whose ethical conduct was, shall we say, questionable.

Can you cite even one example of a politician who suffered at the ballot box as a consequence of their unethical, or even illegal, behaviour? I, can not.

Callely

kippy

To hell with this ballot box punishment. It simply isnt good enough even if it happens in some cases.

These guys, who do something which hasnt been investigated but which looks a imoral, unethical or appears to skirt the law and then lose their seat, still get paid and retain all benefits that were due to them. They don't get punished.
We have laws in this country, for too long those at the top (politicians,bankers,regulators, senior public/civil servants) have managed to avoid them.

stantom

Sinn Fein have, again and again, proved that they are unable to take part in a normal democracy.

Lets all ensure that, forever more, they are labelled the "Cartridge Family" which has the wonderful ability to ridicule and remind everyone of their disgusting behaviour, and all the implication of "family" .

Godge

Godge wrote: »

Yes, relying on the electorate to discern the truth is the last refuge of the rogue

Well said. The electorate by and large have short memories for stuff like this, and the wool can be pulled over a lot of their eyes very easily in the last six to twelve months before an election.

Remember in the middle of the boom, when fianna fail corruption was rife and was frequently in the headlines? There were tribunals, unvouched expenses, dodgy bank accounts, NO bank accounts, speaking engagements for cash, etc, etc, and all the furore and outrage that went with all of that being made public on a regular basis. Now remember the regular giveaway budget or two before election time, where everybody got what they wanted regardless of the cost to the state, and miraculously all the chancers still managed to get re-elected?

Back when they were being outed in the press for fiddling the system, those same chancers were all crying "the electorate will decide come polling day" too.

Godge wrote: »

Come on guys, there are no leaflets, certainly not millions of them like there should be. But there are millions of leaflets postered around Dublin by various protest groups over the last 5 years for meetings to protest about this or that. Wonder who gave them the paper and the ink?

Well said, again. This is where i think the crux of the issue is, but unfortunately we'll never find any proof. I suspect the taxpayer has been (and still is) paying for ink and paper for all sorts of grass-roots literature, flyers, leaflet drops, etc for movements entirely outside the official remit of Sinn Fein. Mr O Snodaigh would deny this of course, as well he should, because he could get into a lot of trouble if he had done such a thing, but the fact remains, the explanation he's offered so far for this just isn't credible.

jmayo

john reilly wrote: »

nice to see you are keeping this to the issue on the thread. which is the legitimate use of ink cartridges and not just another s.f bashing. would give nothing you say any credencne as your hatred would be clouding any rational commentary. sinn fein has put up with this media and establishment bias for years, the good news is this only makes them stronger. keep up the good work

Excuse me I pointed out a fact and I used the names of two of the people involved to illustrate your point about the different spelling of the name Gerry/Jerry.
And of course one of those named was actually visited/collected from prison by no other than a SF TD.
So there is your connection.

As for hatred, yes I do hate SF because I see through their BS and waffle.
But have any of my posts being hatred as you claim or have I debated/questioned the over use of one SF deputy's free taxpayer funded toner/ink cartridges and that fact that SF are actually doing exactly the same as some other parties in trying to sweep this gross misuse of taxpayers money under the carpet ?

Perhaps you should ask one of the mods, who no doubt have been monitoring my posts in this thread because I got infracted for discussing moderation in this thread, if I have been spewing hatred as you claim ?

SF have richly deserved the questioning, by media and establishment, of them and their methods for years because of what they did and what they condoned.
For fecks sake if you can't see why that was the case then it really illustrates why a lot of people think SF have not moved on.

"the good news is this only makes them stronger. keep up the good work"
What on earth are you on about ?
You think the wastage of taxpayers funds is good work ? :rolleyes:

Dr Galen wrote: »

So you don't believe that AOS has a legitimate question to answer?

john reilly wrote: »

not really. what i would like to see is all expense banned or very strict limits. so we wouldnt need to have media giving selective reports of certain peoples expenses to promote their own agenda.

So AOS has no questions to answer on the fact he spent 3/4 times more than anyone else on taxpayer funded printing supplies ?

Would you say the same about the wastage of taxpayer funds by any politican of any other party ?

You are no better than the ones who paraded on here defending the indefensible behaviour of ff politicans who lied (o'dea), stole (stroke fahy), may have committed fraud (callely) and arrogantly wasted (the whole job lot of them) our money.

You cannot ban all expenses.
Like in a lot of jobs people incur expenses, these need to be vouched for and then the people need to be recompensed for the cost.

All expenses of all public representatives should be freely available to the citizens since they after all are paying for them.

lugha

yourpics wrote: »

Any member of FF who was not elected last time out.
All of the Green Party.

The reason they lost their seats was for much the same reason any party of government gets hammered when the economy falters, because the economy falters.

And the hit on governing parties tend to be proportional to the hit on the economy, even if they were in no way responsible. Their demise had nothing to do with them being unethical.

raymon wrote: »

Callely

Ivor certainly does not count! The electorate rejected him in 2007. They did not reject him as a senator in 2011 because they never selected him! He was put there by the Taoiseach, not the people.

yourpics

lugha wrote: »

The reason they lost their seats was for much the same reason any party of government gets hammered when the economy falters, because the economy falters.

And the hit on governing parties tend to be proportional to the hit on the economy, even if they were in no way responsible. Their demise had nothing to do with them being unethical.

FF demise had as much to do with them being unethical as it had to do with the economy. Most of their unethical behaviour left us where we are today. I know there is a worldwide recession, but Ireland is worse off than most other countries e.g. unemployment in the eurozone is average 10.3% whereas Ireland is over 14%

trishasaffron

Any updates on what your man was doing with the cartridges?

I have to admit that leaving aside political parties for a minute this particular scandal has a certain appeal for me. Its reminds me one of Parkinson's lesser known laws - the law of Triviality - As he put it, "The time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum involved." The example given is the nuclear reactor and the bicycle shed or even the painting of the shed. So at a Board meeting the nuclear reactor expenditure will be approved on the nod while the painting of the shed will be poured over in great detail because all Board member have chosen and painted a shed. The item may even have to be referred to a sub-committee!! So some abuses are just too complex for my mind to grapple with but this one is so pathetically mundane that I'm a bit obsessed with it.

It resonates with me because having worked in various organisations with a whole range of purchasing and stationery procedures I just cannot get my head around walking out of my office every single evening with a new printer cartridge under my arm. Nor can I imagine the daily conversation with the lads (or lassies) in the stationery room/supplies Depot when collecting the cartridges. I'd love more info. Did he have to sign for them? did he do it himself or did he send an assistant for them? Were the lads willing collaborators? Where is Scrap Saturday when you need it????

JustinDee

trishasaffron wrote: »

Any updates on what your man was doing with the cartridges?

I have to admit that leaving aside political parties for a minute this particular scandal has a certain appeal for me. Its reminds me one of Parkinson's lesser known laws - the law of Triviality - As he put it, "The time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum involved." The example given is the nuclear reactor and the bicycle shed or even the painting of the shed. So at a Board meeting the nuclear reactor expenditure will be approved on the nod while the painting of the shed will be poured over in great detail because all Board member have chosen and painted a shed. The item may even have to be referred to a sub-committee!! So some abuses are just too complex for my mind to grapple with but this one is so pathetically mundane that I'm a bit obsessed with it.

It resonates with me because having worked in various organisations with a whole range of purchasing and stationery procedures I just cannot get my head around walking out of my office every single evening with a new printer cartridge under my arm. Nor can I imagine the daily conversation with the lads (or lassies) in the stationery room/supplies Depot when collecting the cartridges. I'd love more info. Did he have to sign for them? did he do it himself or did he send an assistant for them? Were the lads willing collaborators? Where is Scrap Saturday when you need it????

Its not really "mundane" though. A TD who decries all sorts of bureaucracy and fraud, has fleeced his place of employment (funded by taxpayer) for all he can, to the tune of the same amount of a middle-management salary or two mid-table administration salaries.

Sunnyisland

SF should come out and explain how and why this happened and what action if any the party is doing about it.

lugha

yourpics wrote: »

FF demise had as much to do with them being unethical as it had to do with the economy. Most of their unethical behaviour left us where we are today. I know there is a worldwide recession, but Ireland is worse off than most other countries e.g. unemployment in the eurozone is average 10.3% whereas Ireland is over 14%

Exactly! Because of the economy, as I said. If you want to argue that it was unethical behaviour from FF that exasperated the economic downturn, fine. But they were punished for the effect, not the cause.

It was the very same individuals doing the very same “unethical” thing all through the boom and the Bertie years but somehow we managed to suppress any urge we had to hold them to account.

Until the party ended and the house came crashing down! Then you argue, we all of a sudden felt a need to demand higher standards from our politicians?

Nonsense I’m afraid. We have had ample opportunities in different constituencies over the years to punish bad behaviour. And we have always failed to do so (Flynn, Lowry etc.) I see no reason to believe it will be any different for O'Snodaigh. We just don’t do high standards.

Sully

Fairly sure we wont hear anything else about this. Other more pressing issues have taken over. While the electorate will probably go out on anti-government vote for the new Treaty Referendum - it would be nice if they just ignored the Shinners and voted Yes anyway as punishment for spending so much of their money every fecking year

Bannasidhe

JustinDee wrote: »

Its not really "mundane" though. A TD who decries all sorts of bureaucracy and fraud, has fleeced his place of employment (funded by taxpayer) for all he can, to the tune of the same amount of a middle-management salary or two mid-table administration salaries.

I get what trishasaffron is saying - it's so grubby and mundane. I can picture him popping into the stationary cupboard with his placcy bag everyday filling it up with tippex, paperclips, post-it notes, staples, thumbtacks, blutack, sellotape, biros - getting all excited when he saw they had rubbers, markers and pencil sharpners back in stock. When his little bag was full he's grab a few cartridges under his arm and stroll out the door.

Wonder if a queue ever formed after the big stationary delivery?

'feck - O'Snodaigh got here first - all the bloody Dáil Éireann rubbers are gone! Pass us over a box of that double sided sellotape there would ya, the kids....I mean...I've a load of stuff to ..ummm...stick. Oh and a box of post-it notes too....'


Some people have No style at least Charlie bought nice clothes and whole islands....:p.

Liam Byrne

lugha wrote: »

It was the very same individuals doing the very same “unethical” thing all through the boom and the Bertie years but somehow we managed to suppress any urge we had to hold them to account.

Speak for yourself.

nuac

The major issues of the day often pass over our heads. Sums if money too big.

However nearly every small businss and many households have printers. Most know what cartridges cost and approx number of copiers they will print.

Ó'Snodaigh appears to have been pickin these up free but at a huge costs to the tax payer.

Hard to believe he did not know what they cost. His father is in the printing busines- he could have checked at home.

So far I do not believe A Ó S on this

lugha

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

What I have to say doesn’t matter. It is the collective voice of the electorate that matters. What they “say” is unequivocally reflected in election results.

And any time they had an opportunity to pass judgement on a politician’s bad behaviour, they have fluffed it. (Most recently, your own folk in Limerick had this chance).

Of course they are plenty of people who, in the way they use their own vote, demand high standards. But they are demonstrably not enough of them to carry the day.

I don’t think it serves is well to delude ourselves into thinking that we (as in the electorate) have recognised the folly of tolerating low standards. There is simply no evidence of that at all. Do you seriously think that this incident will come back to trouble O'Snodaigh in 3 to 4 years?

Sully

On the subject of expenses, I was just looking up a bit more about them here and in the North (Sinn Fein). We know that the other partys claim expenses and a big salary, but I think a lot of people believe Sinn Fein don't and are a true working class party.

- Draw down a basic wage of €92,672.

- Drew down the leaders allowance of €893,432.

- Spent €496,928 in the 2011 Election, more than the 2007 election.In line with election rules, candidates are entitled to €8,700 in expense refunds

- Overall, in 2011, their TDs claimed on average €44,153 in expenses.

- Lets not forget the €50,000 one SF TD spent on ink cartridges over two years. We don’t know how much would have been spent on paper, as its not recorded, but your talking around 3million pages.

- As part of the Sinn Fein fundraising drive, they live it up spending a small fortune on fine dining and expensive hotels in America. This is according to documents filed with the US Department of Justice. The party finance directory stayed in a hotel with room rates from $686 to $1,424 (€526 to €1,090). Gerry dines in a restaurant with stakes costing €37 while staying in a hotel with room rates from $208 to $633 (€159 to €485). This is only a small chunk of what some of the Sinn Fein crew are spending abroad. Its not our money, of course, but he sure enjoys luxury while abroad for his party fundraiser despite claiming to be a party of the working class.

- In the North, SF MPs, despite being absent from the second house they claimed for, spent nearly £500,000 on parliamentary second-home expenses system. Gerry himself claimed £3,600 per month for a house despite being valued at £1,400 a month. The five MPs rented three London properties from the same family at over the top rates. Martin McGuinness also made the same claim as Gerry Adams.

Multiple sources for this - UK Media, Wikipedia, TheJournal and Politics.ie being the most.

Park Royal

nuac wrote: »

The major issues of the day often pass over our heads. Sums if money too big.

However nearly evert samm businss and many households have printers. Most know what cartridges cost and approx number of copiers they will print.

Ó'Snodaigh appears to have been pickin these up free but at a huge costs to the tax payer.

Hard to believe he did not know what they cost. His father is in the printing busines- he could have checked at home.

So far I d not believe A Ó S on this

I see where your coming from...but O'Snodaigh is reported to have said he was not told they were so dear .....so if your not told its OK......as it was indeed...... it was legal .....

what worries me is what else has he not been told ....?

I recall a Most Rev Monsignor advising that children of seven years of age should know the difference between "right " and " wrong" ......
but on reflection some peoples "right" maybe other peoples "wrong" ...

The problem maybe there is our reality and his reality .... these maybe two different things......its by his deeds and actions you will know him......

I dont know the man but on hearing this story it makes me believe he has very strange values.....which would not marry up with my values .......and to be honest it would really raise questions ( for me) about his judgement.....others may find him and his judgement very acceptable.....

Liam Byrne

lugha wrote: »

Most recently, your own folk in Limerick had this chance

Excuse me now.....just because I have the misfortune to share a location with a relatively sizeable plethora of people who couldn't care less about ethics and honesty does not mean that they are "my own folk".

In addition (going somewhat back on-topic) a lot of others from whom I would similarly disassociate the phrase "your own folk" voted for O'Snodaigh's shower.

If I called your local drugs gang or occupy movement "your own folk", would you object ? I suspect that you would, and you'd be right to.

Do not taint me by association, please.

walrusgumble

How many people live in this man's Constituency?

Surely they are not stupid and know what a newspaper and radio is which only need to discuss National Matters - matters that he is in the Dáil for (oh yeah, and to an extent parish pump issues)?

Can't he get his message across in other forms, eg black and white leaflets (colored is a bit vain - Joe Higgins' posters might be cheap and gaudy, but they get the message across), monthly meetings? More Clinics (I am sure he does that) or special community meetings (at least then people who care will go, and least then it guarantees that most people had read the leaflet, which I doubt many will glance at , no more than the usual pizza delivery leaflets) I understand that not everyone will go to the internet, but please.

Politicians of all co lours had no problem with the old fashioned ways and did not need leaflets, or coloured leaflets for every announcement.

Isn't that what their paper is for, oh wait..............

What is the actual content of these leaflets? His jolly to Palestine?

It is wrong. He knows damn well, or should know damn well how expensive cartridges are. He also knows, from the previous cases involving the payment of certain fees in order to stand for elections (which was unconstitutional) what huge benefits TD's have in the postage etc (the cases that I am referring too, looked at that) area over others and that it should not be abused

He should also know that his political enemies and media (also enemies) will pound on him and SF for any slip up. He would not have been so extravagant with his own money. He is a TD for over 5 years, and knows damn well that every expense is scrutinized, and knows damn well Mary Lou would be all over their opponents like a rash if the shoe was on the other foot.


Whilst this expense, I have no doubt, was for genuine purposes of the job, if Ivor Callely is getting killed (rightly so) for mobile expenses (which may or may not be related to his job - either way may have been false anyway) what the hell is this guy doing to be seen to be anywhere near rising such expenses, he can't be that stupid, can he?

But, funny how this came out (hey, rightly so) when a poll suggested that Sinn Féin are considered the leading opposition party. (polls means nothing of course)

nuac

When are SF going to tell us who used these cartridges?

john reilly

Dr Galen wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

A TD fiddling the system raises definite questions that really need proper answers. As K9 says party politics shouldn't come in to it, though obviously they will to a degree.

As for cutting all expenses for TDs that's also unworkable. Lots and lots and lots of jobs have expenses paid. Of course I'd agree if you said that there should be no unvouched expenses. too many have ridden the expenses gravy train for sure but on the same token, many haven't.

All this rabble rabble ranty ranty about expenses is getting really old. People need to realise that there is a cost to having a democracy and this is one of these such costs.

there is a cost for me getting to work. but i pay that myself. also the bigger parties get more money ensuring they will stay the bigger parties. hardly suprising given it was them that introduced these expenses

Stripey Cat

nuac wrote: »

When are SF going to tell us who used these cartridges?

No one really cares about this.

It's a standard tabloid story from the Daily Mail, and was the source for some bad puns for a few days.

Nonsense about AÓS's father running a printing firm (he's a historian and publisher of Irish language books, not a printer); and millions of leaflets is just lazy guff from people who would never vote Sinn Féin anyway.

Everyone else has moved on.

Liam Byrne

Stripey Cat wrote: »

nuac wrote: »

When are SF going to tell us who used these cartridges?

No one really cares about this.

It's a standard tabloid story from the Daily Mail, and was the source for some bad puns for a few days.

Nonsense about AÓS's father running a printing firm (he's a historian and publisher of Irish language books, not a printer); and millions of leaflets is just lazy guff from people who would never vote Sinn Féin anyway.

Everyone else has moved on.

Well they shouldn't have moved on until he is forced to pay back most of it and possibly even suspended for a while.

It won't happen though, because far too many of them are at it.

Judgement Day

Stripey Cat wrote: »

No one really cares about this.

It's a standard tabloid story from the Daily Mail, and was the source for some bad puns for a few days.

Nonsense about AÓS's father running a printing firm (he's a historian and publisher of Irish language books, not a printer); and millions of leaflets is just lazy guff from people who would never vote Sinn Féin anyway.

Everyone else has moved on.

Speak for yourself. The only reason that it's not getting more attention is we're punch drunk from the unending stream of scandals, crises, bailouts etc.etc. AO'S should be booted out of the Dail but it will never happen. SF are the natural successors to the Soldiers of Destiny. :rolleyes:

raymon

Stripey Cat wrote: »

No one really cares about this.

It's a standard tabloid story from the Daily Mail, and was the source for some bad puns for a few days.

Nonsense about AÓS's father running a printing firm (he's a historian and publisher of Irish language books, not a printer); and millions of leaflets is just lazy guff from people who would never vote Sinn Féin anyway.

Everyone else has moved on.

Not true ..... I care

Not true ...... it was covered by all media outlets

Not true ........ millions of leaflets was the number provided by experts

Personally I don't believe his explanation, I think it is more likely that others used the cartridges

K-9

Judgement Day wrote: »

Speak for yourself. The only reason that it's not getting more attention is we're punch drunk from the unending stream of scandals, crises, bailouts etc.etc. AO'S should be booted out of the Dail but it will never happen. SF are the natural successors to the Soldiers of Destiny. :rolleyes:

Well I'll remember come voting in a constituency with a SF TD. I'll also remember Thomas Pringle claiming his allowance that he chose not to give back, as basically they're all at it. Well AOS and Pringle, you weren't elected to be all at it, just like FF/FG!