A Gaeltacht in Dublin?

The Corinthian

The problem with the language (not the language itself) I've come to believe is that too many people have a vested interest in how things are.

Active support appears to come from two main demographics (that heavily overlap). Firstly there are those who profit from it; Gaeltacht businesses, Irish language translators and media, government departments that are charged to promote Irish, teachers who teach it and everyone else who has benefited financially either because they do so via employment, grants and/or tax incentives.

Secondly you have the ideologues; for whom the language represents an essential part of national and historical identity to be protected no matter what the cost. To me, they tend to represent the worst kind of gombeen republicanism; who are actually a bit like esperantists, except esperantists are somewhat more agreeable and there's probably more of them (you have to laugh when you see 160k Wikipedia articles in Esparanto and just over 14k in Irish).

An excellent example of what I'm talking about can be found in the Wikipedia discussion page for Gaeltachts - you'll note the single biggest topic of discussion doesn't actually have anything to do with the Gaeltachts, let alone the Irish language.

These two groups are not exclusive, BTW, and often overlap. There are others, no doubt, who will also support the language in varying degrees too without falling into either, but they are typically the silent majority (or minority, we don't know).

Neither of these groups are really interested in Irish becoming a commonly spoken language. The first would lose money if it did, as grants and tax incentives would no longer be needed and their jobs would face competition and the latter are more interested in the struggle, than actually winning it.

So enough is done to keep the language just about alive, but not enough to live. Questioning any of this reality is met with open hostility as some form of heresy; even suggesting that it's not in very good shape and could end up going extinct in the next century results in something akin to a Monty Python sketch about saying "Jehovah".

So real examination of the state of the language is avoided as to do so may bring home uncomfortable truths, or endanger livelihoods, after all. And policies thus are never examined, but instead become the fruits of parish pump politics in Ireland; if you read the article that kicked off this thread, for example, you would be forgiven if you came to the conclusion that there was a little bit too much interest the financial benefit to Clondalkin and too little in the benefit to Irish, from those interviewed.

I never went to a gaelscoil - they really didn't exist in large numbers when I was in school. Apparently they have helped increase interest and fluency in the language in the last twenty years though - apparently, because there no real data there either. But we can hope.

And hope is pretty much all we can do, because I don't see the vested interests and gombeen republicans actually doing anything constructive about it.

Problem is I just don't see this status quo continuing indefinitely; people aren't dumb - they may be favourable towards the Irish language, but not if it takes too much money out of their pockets. They may like the idea that their kids will learn to speak it, but not if it means that they'll not get enough schooling in other subjects. And bit, by bit, the funding and compulsory protections that surround Irish will end up being eroded, until enough is no longer done to keep the language just about alive.

If that happens, some non-Irish media investigative documentary group will do a piece on how the parrot is actually dead (I know, it is all very Pythonesque) and we can all act shocked about it, blame our politicians, the church or someone else, because it's all a huge surprise to us.

Permabear

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deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not happy to agree it makes for grim reading. In which case DgD I reckon diverting funds from window dressing type projects(of which there are many) into the areas that are left that are still strong in the language at grass roots level is the way forward. If and when that makes a difference(and I think it would), then start spreading the word. However I'd support Irish language schools where ever they are.

If you are saying that the topic of this thread is a window dressing type project, then I would have to question the basis of how you came to that conclusion.

Currently there are several areas in the traditional gaeltacht that are receving support on the basis that they are Irish speaking areas when in reality they have not much above the national average in terms of Irish speaking, is changing the basis of what is a gaeltacht and setting a minimum linguistic criteria to stop this from happening 'window dressing'?
If an area outside the traditional gaeltacht, be it in Dublin or Letrim manage to meet those minium linguistic criteria, why should they not be recognised as a Gaeltacht? Why would giving gaeltacht status to an area outside the traditional Gaeltacht that has managed to fulfill the set criteria be 'Wnidow Dressing'?


As for your assertion that Dublin is wrong as a 'habitit' for Irish speaking, as far as I am concerned, that is just another way of labeling Irish as a bog language.
There is no basis for the assertion that Irish, or any language is unsuited to an urban setting.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

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I think the report you linked to gives exactly the reason, If Irish ois not the spoken language of two thirds of an area, then it becomes unsustainable as the community language of the area, if English becomes the comunity language of the area, then language shift from being Native Irish speaking to Native English speaking becomes more and more inivetiable.

Without Irish speaking comunities, there will be no native speakers, and without native speakers, the language will be truely and finally dead.

Madam

Thank God the likes of the Catalonian people and even the Scots and the Welsh don't think the same way the Irish do about their native language! Why this need to deride it, are you ashamed of it? To me it would be a great idea to have a Gaeltacht in Dublin. mabe give it(the language) a bit more prominence and bring it into, if not every day speech at least it makes for an interesting city - think of the bilingual(or multi lingual) money to be made from guide books!

I think I said somewhere else if childeren learn a language other than the one they speak every day, it makes it easier to learn other languages(at least for kids it does), besides there's no harm in learning it whether you use it or not!

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

If you are saying that the topic of this thread is a window dressing type project, then I would have to question the basis of how you came to that conclusion.

The vast majority of Clondalkinites cannot speak Irish. Even the number of Polish, Russian and Chinese speakers is going to be significantly higher. The suggestion of making Clondaklin a Gaeltacht is akin to suggesting the Sahara desert is a wetland, because long ago it was and today there's a tiny smattering of waterholes. It's sadly all too like a sketch from the Savage Eye. You really could not make this stuff up.

Currently there are several areas in the traditional gaeltacht that are receving support on the basis that they are Irish speaking areas when in reality they have not much above the national average in terms of Irish speaking, is changing the basis of what is a gaeltacht and setting a minimum linguistic criteria to stop this from happening 'window dressing'?
If an area outside the traditional gaeltacht, be it in Dublin or Letrim manage to meet those minium linguistic criteria, why should they not be recognised as a Gaeltacht? Why would giving gaeltacht status to an area outside the traditional Gaeltacht that has managed to fulfill the set criteria be 'Wnidow Dressing'?

Indeed you've hit the nail square on the head, but it is beyond my ken why one should throw money at yet another farce by changing signs and sticking a Gaelthact tag on it when there is no reason to do so, beyond some fervent ideology and those who buy into it. It's completely artificial. The very fact the minimum linguistic is so very minimal says it all. You've essentially proven my point.

As for your assertion that Dublin is wrong as a 'habitit' for Irish speaking, as far as I am concerned, that is just another way of labeling Irish as a bog language.

Nope. You'll note I said "etc". This would cover the majority of the country, both urban and rural. Deciding there's one in Leitrim is just as daft as deciding there's one in Limerick, or Clondalkin. The fact is that the Gaeltacht areas are rural. Have been for a very long time. The language ceased to be urban and the written and spoken language of science, philosophy and higher learning sometime in the mid 1700's. That's no barrier to acceptance of the langauge BTW, if the people of this country chose to change that, but they haven't. Quite the opposite. For all the political backing of the language and for all the lobbying of special interest groups and for all the money, time and effort expended on this cultural experiment, the Irish language has become less used over time.

There is no basis for the assertion that Irish, or any language is unsuited to an urban setting.

Agree 100%. Basque is a language of both the deeply rural and urban. However clearly Irish is barely on the radar in urban and rural Irish areas including the average conversation outside a Gaelscoil.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

The vast majority of Clondalkinites cannot speak Irish. Even the number of Polish, Russian and Chinese speakers is going to be significantly higher. The suggestion of making Clondaklin a Gaeltacht is akin to suggesting the Sahara desert is a wetland, because long ago it was and today there's a tiny smattering of waterholes. It's sadly all too like a sketch from the Savage Eye. You really could not make this stuff up.

Today, but no one has said anything about just puting up a few signs and pretending that Clondalkin or anywhere else for that matter is a Gaeltacht, thats kinda the whole point of laying down criteria, if an area wants to become a gaeltacht, it has to meet those criteria.
Clondalkin, of anywhere in Dublin has the most potential to meet those criteria over time because it already has some of the supports necessary for building a stable language community in place, supports such as a successful Irish medium education network and social outlets for using Irish as well as a core group of young people living in the area able to speak Irish.

Indeed you've hit the nail square on the head, but it is beyond my ken why one should throw money at yet another farce by changing signs and sticking a Gaelthact tag on it when there is no reason to do so, beyond some fervent ideology and those who buy into it. It's completely artificial. The very fact the minimum linguistic is so very minimal says it all. You've essentially proven my point.

So very minimal? Its 30% daily speakers for recognition as a class c Gaeltacht. I would not call that minimal by any strech.

Nope. You'll note I said "etc". This would cover the majority of the country, both urban and rural. Deciding there's one in Leitrim is just as daft as deciding there's one in Limerick, or Clondalkin. The fact is that the Gaeltacht areas are rural. Have been for a very long time. The language ceased to be urban and the written and spoken language of science, philosophy and higher learning sometime in the mid 1700's. That's no barrier to acceptance of the langauge BTW, if the people of this country chose to change that, but they haven't. Quite the opposite. For all the political backing of the language and for all the lobbying of special interest groups and for all the money, time and effort expended on this cultural experiment, the Irish language has become less used over time.

Again, nobody is just arbitrarily deciding there will be one in Dublin or Letrim or anywhere else and just sticking up a few Gaeltacht signs, an area gets recognition as a Gaeltacht if it fulfills the criteria for what a Gaeltacht is, should an area fulfil the criteria for being a gaelacht, I fail to see how giving it Gaeltacht status would be daft, regardless of if it is Conamara or Clondalkin.

The Corinthian

Madam wrote: »

Thank God the likes of the Catalonian people and even the Scots and the Welsh don't think the same way the Irish do about their native language!

You're mixing apples and oranges there. Catalan is the native language of about one quarter of Spain and was never endangered. Welsh was always in much better shape than Irish and Scottish (you'll have to also tell us which language as there are two distinct Scottish languages - one Celtic, the other Germanic) is arguably in worse shape than Irish. Or did you want to include Manx or Cornish in your list?

Why this need to deride it, are you ashamed of it?

If you care to look at the last few pages, I don't think a single person has derided it. The system that surrounds it, yes, but certainly not the language.

To me it would be a great idea to have a Gaeltacht in Dublin. mabe give it(the language) a bit more prominence and bring it into, if not every day speech at least it makes for an interesting city - think of the bilingual(or multi lingual) money to be made from guide books!

It would be a great idea to have a Gaeltacht in Dublin, but then what is a Gaeltacht? Some area defined as 'Irish speaking' because a gaelscoil of 1,500 out of a population of 45,000 are present?

Or, as you suggest, "if not every day speech", the old cúpla focal will suffice instead? We should say sláinte in the pub more often maybe?

But that's not Irish, that's Oirish, and there's no need to spend taxpayers money on that; there's plenty of native speakers of Oirish around.

I think I said somewhere else if childeren learn a language other than the one they speak every day, it makes it easier to learn other languages(at least for kids it does), besides there's no harm in learning it whether you use it or not!

Go on then.

opti0nal

Madam wrote: »

Thank God the likes of the Catalonian people and even the Scots and the Welsh don't think the same way the Irish do about their native language!

For most of us in Ireland, English is our native language.

Attitudes like yours that deny this important fact are a big reason why so many people dislike and mistrust the fanatical elements of the Irish lobby.

It would be better if the Irish enthusiasts would just take their hands out of our pockets and get on with speaking Irish to each other.

deise go deo

opti0nal wrote: »

It would be better if the Irish enthusiasts would just take their hands out of our pockets and get on with speaking Irish to each other.

You don't know much about the dynamics of minority language use do you?

Permabear

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Pete_Cavan

Permabear wrote: »

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I will refer you to a post of mine from last week;

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The King of Moo wrote: »

All children can and should learn a second language for a variety of reasons, and Irish has a strong presence in this country (TV and radio stations, street signs) so it's a logical choice.

This is the point I was going to make. With the recent job announcements from Paypal and Mastercard, we are hearing how important foreign languages are becoming to getting these new jobs. This usually promts people to make comments about time wasted in school learning Irish when they could be learning another language which could get them a job. The reality is, there is no way of knowing which language will get a person a job in 15 or 20 years time. The emerging economic powerhouses now are China, India and Brazil but if you suggested 15 years ago that a child should one of the languages spoken in these countries you would have been laughed out the door. Introducing an entirely new curriculum and training enough teachers to teach these languages at primary level now is a waste of time because things may have changed dramatically by the time the first children under the new curriculum come out of school. The best option is teach a second language which will give children linguistic skills which will make it easier for them to learn more languages in the future.

Latin, despite being a truly dead language, was taught for years because it improved a persons ability to learn other languages. Short of bringing back Latin, Irish is a great language for children here to get exposure to and will make it easier to learn another language in the future (eg. Paypal announce they are hiring people with a certain language in a few months time).

And thats before we get into the cultural benefits of preserving a language that has been spoken on this island for more than a thousand years.

RandomName2

Wibbs wrote: »

Though I'm very much against Irish language window dressing for the sake of some IMHO misguided cultural ideal(no shít sherlock I hear some cry:D), I'm personally saddened by the contraction in native Irish usage that those maps appear to show.

I personally think that that contraction is a good thing. First, as one poster mentioned (anecdotally), it wasn't terribly accurate in the first place. Any county councilor can (theoretically, at least back then) draw a line on a map and call it an Irish-speaking area.

More to the point, I don't think that it is either terribly realistic or beneficial to endeavour to have an entirely bi-lingual island.

Yet, I do think that the Gaelteachts are a fundamentally good idea. I don't think that they should be seen as a means to spread the language to the rest of the island (which has been the traditional view) but rather that they should be used to preserve the language as a living one. So small Gaelteachts are not inherently a bad thing, as long as what is called a Gaelteacht is real.

However, for any of this to work it has to be real. A Gaelteacht will only be culturally viable if it is a Gaelteacht for the love of the language and not for the sake of economic incentives o local politics. Moreover, the same goes for the rest of the country. There is no intrinsic benefit to knowing Irish (in a utilitarian sense). If people want to learn it, and want to speak it, they should be facilitated to the utmost in this endeavour. Forcing people to learn it has not worked, does not work, and will not work.

Hotblack Desiato

I live in Clondalkin.

What's not been mentioned so far is that many of the Gaelscoil pupils don't live in the area but are coming in from elsewhere, so why are they being used as justification for a makee-uppee Gaeltacht here?

Being a rather cynical sort at the best of times, I have to wonder how many of these pupils' parents speak Irish in the home? because if they don't, or can't, or can't be bothered, you have to question their motivation - smaller classes? no immigrants? no travellers? bonus LC points??
The urban Gaelscoil movement is often cited as one of the big successes of the language revival movement, instead I see it as one of the most cynical money- and advantage-grubbing exercises ever conceived in the history of the state

I'd much rather there was were a cluster of ET schools here instead of Gaelscoils

The comment above that two-thirds need to be Irish speakers to sustain a Gaeltacht seems reasonable. We'd be doing well to achieve a twentieth of that around here. 'Speaking Irish' during school hours doesn't, and shouldn't, count, it's not real life, and an Irish lane in Tesco's won't make Irish part of real life around here, either.

deise go deo

ninja900 wrote: »

I'd much rather there was were a cluster of ET schools here instead of Gaelscoils

Why?

Hotblack Desiato

Real choice for those who don't want religion dominated education, in accordance with their Constitutional rights.

opti0nal

ninja900 wrote: »

What's not been mentioned so far is that many of the Gaelscoil pupils don't live in the area but are coming in from elsewhere, so why are they being used as justification for a makee-uppee Gaeltacht here?

It's called 'gerrymandering'.

ninja900 wrote: »

an Irish lane in Tesco's won't make Irish part of real life around here, either.

That was in some spin from Irish enthusiasts in Cork who said Tesco were 'considering' this. No mention of any decision to actually do it, but that's the nature of spin.

Any shop implementing an 'Irish-only' till would be taking a big risk under equality legislation.

Wibbs

opti0nal wrote: »

Any shop implementing an 'Irish-only' till would be taking a big risk under equality legislation.

I don't see how. Irish is an official language of the state. Sure I could see some issues with say a Mandarin only till(which would be used more), even then I can't see any law being broken. Indeed if a Irish language lobbyist tried to take a case against a shop for not having an Irish till he or she would have a lot more luck.

deise go deo wrote: »

Today, but no one has said anything about just puting up a few signs and pretending that Clondalkin or anywhere else for that matter is a Gaeltacht, thats kinda the whole point of laying down criteria, if an area wants to become a gaeltacht, it has to meet those criteria.

And that's the problem we're having. The meeting of the criteria is untestable and likely BS.

So very minimal? Its 30% daily speakers for recognition as a class c Gaeltacht. I would not call that minimal by any strech.

Neither would I, if such an area existed outside the Aran islands and a couple of other small areas. I strongly suspect it doesn't and that's for a "class C" relic Gaeltacht. One presumes Class B and A exist? If so, I really doubt one exists in any practical way beyond the aforementioned islands.

Again, nobody is just arbitrarily deciding there will be one in Dublin or Letrim or anywhere else and just sticking up a few Gaeltacht signs,

That's precisely what the underlying suspicion is. I've traveled and stayed all over this nation of ours since I was a kid and mostly in the rural areas. A goodly chunk of whom were Gaeltachts. Outside of Achill island in the late 70's*, I can recall hearing Irish in Mayo once. I can't honestly recall hearing it in Clare or Kerry, though I heard it in Donegal a few times. Yes I was passing through. I was a "tourist", but I was a tourist in Bilbao for a long weekend and heard more Basque as basic everyday conversation and communication in that weekend than I've heard Irish in a lifetime outside of my schooling and Irish language media.

An experience as a kid in the early 80's summed this up for me. Our school year were invited to an Irish kids programme on RTE. Now few, very few of my classmates would have had more than the cupla focal in actual conversational terms so audience participation was kinda out, or a crap shoot at best. The warm up person was speaking more English than Irish. Anyhow there was engagement with a few kids in the audience during the taping. I was chatting to one of them after the show and he told me he and a few others were regularly in RTE for such things. Plants in other words. Cultural ringers. To the casual viewer, especially a foreign one Irish would have appeared in rude good health among the kidz and they were watching an "Irish language audience", but the reality was very different. Like I say that summed it up for me.

I saw similar while channel hopping more recently. A TG4 "Irelands got the X factor" type show around trad music and dance. Coolaboola. Quite a number of talented folks showed up so I had an oul watch. I did note how many were staring blank eyed and eared when the judges were making their pronouncements as Gaelige and the host had to engage as Bearla with quite a number of participants. A tad odd for a thriving language we all were schooled in, on an Irish language station aimed at and drawing from it's core demographic and with trad Irish singing/dancing. Can't see that happening on a Catalan or Basque or even a Welsh programme to nearly the same degree.

Even one of TG4's "headliners" Ros na Run has had difficulties. The producers have real difficulties finding actors to fill the roles. Particularly male actors.

"Producer Hugh Farley says that many people applying to work on the soap have ‘book Irish’ but lack the fluent, conversational Irish the programme needs."





*where I met a very nice elderly chap whose English was quite limited and my schoolboy Irish made him laugh. I'd say his like have pretty much died out.

Enkidu

Permabear wrote: »

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I hope you mean in terms of education for children, but surely an adult can learn a language they're not going to use, like Koine Greek for enjoyment, culture or other reasons. I wouldn't view that as "pointless".

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

And that's the problem we're having. The meeting of the criteria is untestable and likely BS.

-In the case of Category C, 30% of the population are daily speakers of Irish according to Census data and 10% of families with children in the relevant age cohort are receiving support under the reformed SLG scheme

Seems fairly testable.

-Education (except for English language classes) at primary and secondary level is provided through the medium of Irish for the students in the area.

Seems fairly testable

-Language policies are drafted and implemented in the schools to support the use of Irish as a social language outside of the classroom.

Does the school have a plan on how to achieve this, seems fairly testable, if its being achieved is another question, but it is a usefull criteria.

-Language-centred family support services are available (including childcare services, pre-school services and family advisory services), with special arrangements made, as appropriate, for children who are native speakers of Irish and for children who do not speak Irish in the home.

Seems fairly testable

-Youth clubs, summer camps and sporting and other social events providing entertainment and activities for the young are run through the medium of Irish and effective language policies are implemented.

Seems fairly testable

-Religious services are available in the area through the medium of Irish.

Seems fairly testable

Neither would I, if such an area existed outside the Aran islands and a couple of other small areas. I strongly suspect it doesn't and that's for a "class C" relic Gaeltacht. One presumes Class B and A exist? If so, I really doubt one exists in any practical way beyond the aforementioned islands.

Why is that?

That's precisely what the underlying suspicion is. I've traveled and stayed all over this nation of ours since I was a kid and mostly in the rural areas. A goodly chunk of whom were Gaeltachts. Outside of Achill island in the late 70's*, I can recall hearing Irish in Mayo once. I can't honestly recall hearing it in Clare or Kerry, though I heard it in Donegal a few times. Yes I was passing through. I was a "tourist", but I was a tourist in Bilbao for a long weekend and heard more Basque as basic everyday conversation and communication in that weekend than I've heard Irish in a lifetime outside of my schooling and Irish language media.

It makes a big difference if you actually speak Irish, I have been to several Gaeltacht areas, most often An Rinn in Waterford. An Rinn is not a strong Gaeltacht by any strech of the imagination, but I never had any problems using Irish when I was there, a freind of mine from Dublin, living in An Rinn for the last few years has a daughter in the local school, Irish is spoken on the playground and outside the school gate, in the pub it depends on the night, some nights there would'nt be much Irish spoken, other nights you would'nt hear English.

Gaeltachts like An Rinn are rural areas, everyone knows each other, throw a Jackeen like yourself into the mix and people will expect that you can't speak Irish and respond accordingly, the same happens to me until people actually hear me speaking in Irish.

deise go deo

Enkidu wrote: »

I hope you mean in terms of education for children, but surely an adult can learn a language they're not going to use, like Koine Greek for enjoyment, culture or other reasons. I wouldn't view that as "pointless".

I would hope that he does not mean in terms of education for children, the act of learning a language at an early age is beneficial in the development of a child, it being beneficial to their development is not dependent on if they use it later in life or not.

Permabear

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The Corinthian

opti0nal wrote: »

It's called 'gerrymandering'.

And with regards to the original topic of this thread, is my principle objection to this proposal. Calling it a Gaeltacht is self-evidently false, unless you want to lower the bar to a ridiculous level. The whole thing is transparently an example of parish pump politics; a slice of the pie for the local constituency and all that it will encourage is Oirish and not Irish.

Enkidu wrote: »

I hope you mean in terms of education for children, but surely an adult can learn a language they're not going to use, like Koine Greek for enjoyment, culture or other reasons. I wouldn't view that as "pointless".

Totally agree. However, unless a language has a very real practical use, it is largely a labour of love and that only attracts marginal interest - like learning Esperanto, Klingon or ancient Aramaic.

This is why the nationalism card is so oft played in these discussions, when all other arguments fail.

deise go deo wrote: »

Gaeltachts like An Rinn are rural areas, everyone knows each other, throw a Jackeen like yourself into the mix and people will expect that you can't speak Irish and respond accordingly, the same happens to me until people actually hear me speaking in Irish.

I don't think that really is a very good rebuttal. If you're sitting in a pub, the other patrons are not choosing the language in which they speak to each other for the benefit of your understanding.

deise go deo wrote: »

I would hope that he does not mean in terms of education for children, the act of learning a language at an early age is beneficial in the development of a child, it being beneficial to their development is not dependent on if they use it later in life or not.

This may be an argument for encouraging bilingualism (with which I fully agree with), but hardly that the second language should be Irish.

Learning a Germanic language, such as German or a Romance language such as French or Italian, has additional benefits in that learning other, related, languages is a lot easier, down the line. Irish doesn't really have much of an advantage in this regard, unless you intend to learn Welsh at some stage.

I hate being negative overall, but a lot of the arguments being presented here in favour of Irish are pretty damned weak. And this is frustrating because I for one would like the language to actually become a real national language, but am just so fed up at the moronic policies that are put forward in its name that appear to be little more than cash cows for a small cabal of gaelgoirs and am certainly not interested in making a sacrifice for the benefit of their pockets.

swimming in a sea

Focalbhach wrote: »

Why (dare I ask)?

I suppose its a bit of Schadenfreude, I don't have anything against the Irish language only how this country tried to force it down my throat in school 2 ****ing hours a day for 8 years in primary school. To put that in perspective it was followed by 45mins each for English and maths. Thankfully secondary school came and i gave it up and my english and maths improved:)

The Corinthian

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I suppose its a bit of Schadenfreude, I don't have anything against the Irish language only how this country tried to force it down my throat in school 2 ****ing hours a day for 8 years in primary school. To put that in perspective it was followed by 45mins each for English and maths. Thankfully secondary school came and i gave it up and my english and maths improved:)

In fairness, that's not really down to Irish, or even education in Irish, but the standards in primary education in Ireland.

I remember in primary school with one teacher, a long time ago, every morning was Irish up until the first break, mid-morning. Then we had religion, every day, until lunch time. Everything else, from English, maths, history and so on would have to share the post lunch period.

With other teachers, religion was was allotted far less time, as was Irish (I think the rule of thumb was that Irish, English and Maths were treated largely equally). Certainty back then, there was little regulation on curriculum at primary level, so that nationalistic Legion of Mary nut-cases, like the first teacher, could squander precious educational time if they so chose.

Nonetheless, even though Irish probably got an inordinate amount of time every day, what you describe is not as much to do with Irish as the teacher you were allotted, from what I can see.

opti0nal

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't see how. Irish is an official language of the state. Sure I could see some issues with say a Mandarin only till(which would be used more), even then I can't see any law being broken.

As long as the till can also be used by English-speakers & as long as the job requirements don't require any more command of Irish than is reasonably necessary for the position.

Would we tolerate a policy of reserving seats at the front of a bus for 'Irish Speakers Only'? I don't think so.

Deise go deo wrote:

the act of learning a language at an early age is beneficial in the development of a child,

Is the act of forcing a child to speak Irish, 'beneficial'? I'd say it has many negative consequences, as evidenced by the huge number of English speakers that this policy produces.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

-In the case of Category C, 30% of the population are daily speakers of Irish according to Census data and 10% of families with children in the relevant age cohort are receiving support under the reformed SLG scheme

Seems fairly testable.

Hardly. According to the census Irish is doing very well as a language. Self reporting is not reliable. After all according to the internet all men have ten inch willies.

-Education (except for English language classes) at primary and secondary level is provided through the medium of Irish for the students in the area.

Seems fairly testable

Tickable as a box certainly. However if this is not translated into use beyond the school gates it's about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. That's up there with suggesting that because the majority of school age students are taking Irish classes they should be included in "statistics".

-Language policies are drafted and implemented in the schools to support the use of Irish as a social language outside of the classroom.

Does the school have a plan on how to achieve this, seems fairly testable, if its being achieved is another question, but it is a usefull criteria.

How is a plan testable except as well a plan? I could have a letter perfect plan on turning my scrawny arse into the image of Brad Pitt in Fight Club, but that's all it is, a plan. Hardly testable in a real sense at all and hardly worthy of inclusion in policy for an area. I'm sure enough kids were packed of to the Gaeltacht in their youth, strongly encouraged to speak Irish under pretty controlled conditions, who reverted to English every chance they got.

-Language-centred family support services are available (including childcare services, pre-school services and family advisory services), with special arrangements made, as appropriate, for children who are native speakers of Irish and for children who do not speak Irish in the home.

Seems fairly testable

-Youth clubs, summer camps and sporting and other social events providing entertainment and activities for the young are run through the medium of Irish and effective language policies are implemented.

Seems fairly testable

-Religious services are available in the area through the medium of Irish.

Seems fairly testable

OK

Why is that?

Simply because that has been mine and others experience. If it was in such rude good health in such places on a daily basis we'd be having a different conversation.

It makes a big difference if you actually speak Irish,

In the sense that if you buy a brand new red fiat, you tend to notice more red fiats on the road. It doesn't mean there are a lot of red fiats on the road.

Gaeltachts like An Rinn are rural areas, everyone knows each other, throw a Jackeen like yourself into the mix and people will expect that you can't speak Irish and respond accordingly, the same happens to me until people actually hear me speaking in Irish.

Plenty of "culshies" will tell you of similar experiences. After all I'm hardly wearing a tee shirt with Jackeen across my chest. As The Corinthian points out it's hardly an argument. As that chap(whose name escapes I'm afraid) who did the documentary a while back on TG4 found out when he tried to use Irish exclusively to do every day things all over the country. He found he had very little luck on that score. Very few people are within spitting distance of understanding the language, which kinda goes against the census figures.

The Corinthian wrote:

I hate being negative overall, but a lot of the arguments being presented here in favour of Irish are pretty damned weak. And this is frustrating because I for one would like the language to actually become a real national language, but am just so fed up at the moronic policies that are put forward in its name that appear to be little more than cash cows for a small cabal of gaelgoirs and am certainly not interested in making a sacrifice for the benefit of their pockets.

This in a big way.

Enkidu

The Corinthian wrote: »

Totally agree. However, unless a language has a very real practical use, it is largely a labour of love and that only attracts marginal interest - like learning Esperanto, Klingon or ancient Aramaic.

This is why the nationalism card is so oft played in these discussions, when all other arguments fail.

True enough Corinthian. Funnily, a common thing about being a language nut is that all the "cool" languages are completely useless! If only the Babylonians would come back and establish a multinational like google, then I could justify my urge to learn Akkadian.:)

The Corinthian

opti0nal wrote: »

Would we tolerate a policy of reserving seats at the front of a bus for 'Irish Speakers Only'? I don't think so.

Calm down. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting an Irish only till in supermarkets. Could you see them trying to enforce it?

Is the act of forcing a child to speak Irish, 'beneficial'? I'd say it has many negative consequences, as evidenced by the huge number of English speakers that this policy produces.

Well, kids have been forced to go to school for centuries. Given this, it is clear, both by the vast numbers of fluent Irish speakers and the warmth and affection that memories of Peig engender in us all, that the compulsory teaching of Irish has not exactly been a stellar success.

Enkidu wrote: »

If only the Babylonians would come back and establish a multinational like google, then I could justify my urge to learn Akkadian.:)

Bah, the vernacular of those nasty blow-ins. I prefer Sumerian, which incidentally shares sentence word order with Irish.

Enkidu

The Corinthian wrote: »

Bah, the vernacular of those nasty blow-ins. I prefer Sumerian, which incidentally shares sentence word order with Irish.

Ha!:D
Another funny addition is that we have records of Babylonian scribal students complaining about the fact that they were forced to learn Sumerian in school!