Keep abortion out of Ireland

eviltwin

TheBegotten wrote: »

The one thing that strikes me here is the argument centred on post-abortion depression (PASS). I've seen both sides use suicide rates, and it seems incredibly ironic, nay, hypocritical that pro-life are using it as an argument AGAINST abortion. Depression needs to be attended to and cared for, and you want to cut these people off from the proper treatment? Furthermore, you critise and bully them, telling them its their fault, that because she took away a child's perceived rights, to your mind she doesn't deserve the proper treatment? I've always been neutral in this argument so-far, but seeing the sheer self-righteousness, to hold your own opinions as facts, that the better way HAS to be your way, and most of all the bullying and indifferent attitude to those who have gone through and barely made it out the other side disturbs me. I'm aware I'm only addressing a minority, but its intolerable. I am now firmly pro-choice.

Sorry for the rant.

Well that't the pro-life lobby for you. They are clutching at straws.

First we are told abortion is immoral, a sin, its murder....when people still want to legislate for legal abortion they then have to scrap the bottom of the barrel and make out they actually care about the mental health of women who may choose it.

Sorry but its totally obvious to anyone that the pro-life lobby don't care one bit about the women who have abortions, if they did they would be a little bit more mindful of the language they use. Calling someone a murderer who is possibly already tearing herself up with guilt and regret is only going to make her feel worse and make her feel stigmatised at a time she needs to be reaching out for help the most.

doctoremma

Onesimus wrote: »

The focus is not just about making abortion and keeping abortion illegal in Ireland. It is about bringing awareness to the women and men of Ireland ( and the world as a whole ) that abortion is wrong, and that this law passed by several countries should not be an option for them. there is a better way and that is to choose life. Through this awareness we hope that women and men will then realise the error of abortion and make the right choice and that is to be pro-life.

Don't agree with abortion, don't get an abortion. Simple.

Making it illegal (in the UK, say) will not stop women getting abortions. Women have, for thousands of years, gone against their current legal system and prevailing societal pressures to access abortions - women of all ages and all backgrounds feel that their right to have an abortion transcends the right of anyone to prevent her.

For these women - women who want the right to choose - the law makes no difference. For Irish women - Irish women who want the right to choose - the law makes no difference. You cannot stop it, history teaches us this.

How this consistent and repeated desire to choose, as demonstrated by women the world over, can be so willfully ignored is beyond me. It certainly indicates that the matter is not so black and white as anti-abortion campaigners would have you think.

Campaign for different choices, teach women to value themselves sexually (and to use contraception if they aren't going to "save themselves"), open up adoption agencies, educate about childbirth, single parenting and coping with disability. Brilliant, I fully support every single one of those measures. Choose life, fabulous.

But the word "choose" is as important as the word "life" in that sentiment. If you take away a legal right to choose, you end up with a whole world of horror. And a lot of women dying. Because they will STILL choose abortion.

eviltwin

Onesimus wrote: »

The focus is not just about making abortion and keeping abortion illegal in Ireland. It is about bringing awareness to the women and men of Ireland ( and the world as a whole ) that abortion is wrong, and that this law passed by several countries should not be an option for them. there is a better way and that is to choose life. Through this awareness we hope that women and men will then realise the error of abortion and make the right choice and that is to be pro-life.

Whether or not there is a law that says murder is wrong, people will still find a gun somehow and murder someone if they want to but that still does not make their actions morally right, nor should it deter us from enforcing the law and bringing about the awareness that Murder is wrong. The same goes for those who murder children.

Well then surely the best option is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies? Then no one has to find themselves in a position where they have a make a life changing decision, so lets find out why we have unplanned pregnancies and see what we can do to address that.

It seems you don't really want to address that at all, you just want a pregnancy to produce a baby no matter the outcome for the family as a whole.

And as abortion is murder, its a matter of opinion. I personally don't see abortion as murder, I don't think I killed a person, a potential person maybe but I don't feel like having an abortion is something to be ashamed of. I certainly don't feel that way anyway and I sure don't see myself as a child killer :eek:

Festus

Don't want a pregnancy, don't have sex. Simples!

doctoremma

Festus wrote: »

Don't want a pregnancy, don't have sex. Simples!

Fine, promote that message (as a choice, not a guilt trip).

But you might get further with:

Don't want a pregnancy, use contraception. Simple.

totus tuus

TheBegotten wrote: »

The one thing that strikes me here is the argument centred on post-abortion depression (PASS). I've seen both sides use suicide rates, and it seems incredibly ironic, nay, hypocritical that pro-life are using it as an argument AGAINST abortion. Depression needs to be attended to and cared for, and you want to cut these people off from the proper treatment? Furthermore, you critise and bully them, telling them its their fault, that because she took away a child's perceived rights, to your mind she doesn't deserve the proper treatment? I've always been neutral in this argument so-far, but seeing the sheer self-righteousness, to hold your own opinions as facts, that the better way HAS to be your way, and most of all the bullying and indifferent attitude to those who have gone through and barely made it out the other side disturbs me. I'm aware I'm only addressing a minority, but its intolerable. I am now firmly pro-choice.


Sorry for the rant.

You are using a wide sweep with those words. I have NEVER bullied anyone in such a predicament or criticized them. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

Do yo suggest those who speak out against human trafficking, slavery, gassing jews etc. bullies and critics?

eviltwin

totus tuus wrote: »

You are using a wide sweep with those words. I have NEVER bullied anyone in such a predicament or criticized them. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

Do yo suggest those who speak out against human trafficking, slavery, gassing jews etc. bullies and critics?

It might not be something people set out to do but look at some of the posts and see the way they are written, the wording.

Do you think a woman who has had an abortion and who is feeling bad about it, maybe who did it in secret and hasn't told anyone is going to feel strong enough to open up to people when she is afraid of being called a "child killer" ?

doctoremma

totus tuus wrote: »

You are using a wide sweep with those words. I have NEVER bullied anyone in such a predicament or criticized them. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

Do yo suggest those who speak out against human trafficking, slavery, gassing jews etc. bullies and critics?

You negate your first statement with the second.

I'd love to see you present your thoughts about abortion being comparable to the Holocaust to a Holocaust survivor. Unless, of course, the conflation was unintentional.

http://www.ontheissuesmagazine.com/1991spring/Spring1991_1.php
Interviewer: Women who choose abortion are consistently labeled killers, and I personally have been compared to Hitler and called a great murderer.

Elie Wiesel (Holocaust survivor): A woman who feels she cannot go on, and with pain and despair she decides that she has to give up her child, is this woman a killer? Really really. But look, you cannot let these words hurt you. You have to be strong not to pay any attention because those who do that call you a Hitler and relate it to the Holocaust prove that they do not know what the Holocaust was.

Onesimus

And as abortion is murder, its a matter of opinion. I personally don't see abortion as murder, I don't think I killed a person, a potential person maybe but I don't feel like having an abortion is something to be ashamed of. I certainly don't feel that way anyway and I sure don't see myself as a child killer :eek:

It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception. Even Doctors who are pro-abortion will tell you that. The fact that scientists who are pro-abortion and will not deny that life begins at conception just proves that this isnt about ''proving'' that life begins at conception for anyone. It about people just ''wanting'' to murder a child and get away with it anyway.

We can prove to a murderer that killing someone is wrong. But even though he has been given the proof, it doesnt matter for him because he simply ''wants'' to commit murder.

This is not just a battle of the intellect. It a battle of the will.

Emma, women will do it anyway, people who want to commit suicide will do it anyway, does that mean that the amount of helplines and services for those suffering with suicidal thoughts has been a failure? has it not reduced the number of deaths drastically through it's great services?

Making abortion illegal on a national and global scale will prevent this from happening on a massive scale as will bringing people to the awareness that it is morally wrong to do.

I'm bowing out of this conversation now as I came in here only to address brer, whose topic was moved to this thread and I have a life other than boards. I would invite you all to really study this topic. Do your best to seek out the argument for pro-life and then take a look the pro-choice argument. You will find that Pro-life has all the ''facts'' and ''evidence'' on the intellectual side of things, whereas pro-choicers having nothing to say but ''its my choice'' and make rhetorical arguments such as ''what about rape, incest etc '' and the list goes on. A list that has been answered to. But choicers wont listen to common sense. They don't care about evidence and simply ''want'' to choose to kill an innocent being.

Onesimus

eviltwin

Onesimus wrote: »

It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception. Even Doctors who are pro-abortion will tell you that. The fact that scientists who are pro-abortion and will not deny that life begins at conception just proves that this isnt about ''proving'' that life begins at conception for anyone. It about people just ''wanting'' to murder a child and get away with it anyway.

We can prove to a murderer that killing someone is wrong. But even though he has been given the proof, it doesnt matter for him because he simply ''wants'' to commit murder.

This is not just a battle of the intellect. It a battle of the will.

Emma, women will do it anyway, people who want to commit suicide will do it anyway, does that mean that the amount of helplines and services for those suffering with suicidal thoughts has been a failure? has it not reduced the number of deaths drastically through it's great services?

Making abortion illegal on a national and global scale will prevent this from happening on a massive scale as will bringing people to the awareness that it is morally wrong to do.

I'm bowing out of this conversation now as I came in here only to address brer, whose topic was moved to this thread and I have a life other than boards. I would invite you all to really study this topic. Do your best to seek out the argument for pro-life and then take a look the pro-choice argument. You will find that Pro-life has all the ''facts'' and ''evidence'' on the intellectual side of things, whereas pro-choicers having nothing to say but ''its my choice'' and make rhetorical arguments such as ''what about rape, incest etc '' and the list goes on. A list that has been answered to. But choicers wont listen to common sense. They don't care about evidence and simply ''want'' to choose to kill an innocent being.

Onesimus

Well that's your take on it, I don't believe that is the case myself. The laws of the land are in agreement because while abortion is illegal I am never going to be put in prison for having one. I haven't murdered someone under the legal definition, only according to the moral code of certain people which differs from my own.

There are lots of things people don't agree with, doesn't make them wrong.

A child killer to most of the people in society is someone like Ian Brady, someone who gets a kick out of hurting a child, someone who does deserve to be locked away. A woman who has had an abortion is nowhere near the same level.

eviltwin

Just out of interest, does anyone here who believes abortion is murder feel women who have them should be punished by law?

28064212

Onesimus wrote: »

It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception.

So how do you reconcile this "scientific fact" with identical twins? When do their separate lives begin?

doctoremma

eviltwin wrote: »

Just out of interest, does anyone here who believes abortion is murder feel women who have them should be punished by law?

And if I might add a thought to that (one that only occurred as I wrote a recent post):

Does anyone here who believes that abortion is murder think that a woman bleeding out after obtaining an illegal one is a kind of divine punishment/karma/etc?

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

So how do you reconcile this "scientific fact" with identical twins? When do their separate lives begin?

Spontaneous division of the zygote into two embryos means as soon as the zygote splits there are not 2 independent human beings. Both owe their existence to conception.

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Spontaneous division of the zygote into two embryos means as soon as the zygote splits there are not 2 independent human beings. Both owe their existence to conception.

Do they trace their life back to conception or division? What if the zygote is aborted after conception but before a potential division? Is that the abortion of one life or two?

Gumbi

Wtf do you mean by "proving to a murderer that his/her murder was wrong"? Does this not presume an objective moral standard??

I don't look at murder like that.

Brer Fox

eviltwin wrote: »

Just out of interest, does anyone here who believes abortion is murder feel women who have them should be punished by law?

Yes.

Festus

Curiosity is getting the better of me

How may pro-choicers and abortion advocates where think it is ok to kill whales?

I'm not interested in any distinction between killing them for scientific research or to put them a bento box, it's something I've noticed over the years is the number of public figures who argue for the whales and other endangered species seem the think abortion is acceptable.

I used to be one of those "save the whales" people but then I realized they had no right to life, not being persons and all that, and that they're actually quite tasty. I figure they're a bit like rare breed cattle - if we don't eat them they will go extinct and I can't agree with that.

While I'm here, and apologies as I do realize this is the wrong forum but the topic is in the ball park. My prize bitch has turn up pregnant. We don't want the pups as they're probably mongrel. Does anyone know of a good vetinary in the Dublin area who could carry out a termination?

doctoremma

Festus wrote: »

I used to be one of those "save the whales" people but then I realized they had no right to life, not being persons and all that, and that they're actually quite tasty.

Whales are sentient creatures. They have a functioning nervous system, via which they feel, perceive and make choices.

I don't object to whales being killed for food (and I'd hope that humankind would do so sustainably). I object to the methods used to kill them for food, as these methods have the capacity to cause suffering, something only a creature with a functioning nervous system can feel.

Festus wrote: »

I figure they're a bit like rare breed cattle - if we don't eat them they will go extinct and I can't agree with that.

I'm entirely neutral to creatures becoming extinct, in terms of the actual concept. I don't like the idea of humans contributing to their extinction, especially if it involves hunting/chopping off horns/etc. Again, that causes suffering to existing animals that have the capacity to feel suffering.

As I have typed this reply, several species have likely become extinct as a matter of nature. I can't lose sleep over that.

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

Do they trace their life back to conception or division? What if the zygote is aborted after conception but before a potential division? Is that the abortion of one life or two?

:-) conception and division happen in less than 24 hrs. You can't have a person without conception.

doctoremma

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You can't have a person without conception.

Aphids would disagree.

qrrgprgua

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/05/poll-canadians-want-more-restrictions-on-abortion/

qrrgprgua

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/05/denying-humanity-abortion-backers-cant-stand-ultrasound-pictures/

qrrgprgua

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0702/1224319179346.html

fatmammycat

Festus wrote: »

Curiosity is getting the better of me

How may pro-choicers and abortion advocates where think it is ok to kill whales?

I'm not interested in any distinction between killing them for scientific research or to put them a bento box, it's something I've noticed over the years is the number of public figures who argue for the whales and other endangered species seem the think abortion is acceptable.

I used to be one of those "save the whales" people but then I realized they had no right to life, not being persons and all that, and that they're actually quite tasty. I figure they're a bit like rare breed cattle - if we don't eat them they will go extinct and I can't agree with that.

While I'm here, and apologies as I do realize this is the wrong forum but the topic is in the ball park. My prize bitch has turn up pregnant. We don't want the pups as they're probably mongrel. Does anyone know of a good vetinary in the Dublin area who could carry out a termination?

I'm pretty sure most vets would do it, shame you didn't mind your 'prize' dog a bit better and she wouldn't have got knocked up, guess these things happen, eh? What's important is you can undo it because you don't want the pups.

fatmammycat

qrrgprgua wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0702/1224319179346.html

I'm sorry, where were the alternatives in that letter? What do you propose people do with an unwanted pregnancy?

qrrgprgua

http://www.prolifeinfo.ie/women/crisis-pregnancy/babies-we-were-told-to-abort/lisa/

fatmammycat

qrrgprgua wrote: »

http://www.prolifeinfo.ie/women/crisis-pregnancy/babies-we-were-told-to-abort/lisa/

What is your solution to unwanted pregnancy?

doctoremma

qrrgprgua wrote: »

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/05/denying-humanity-abortion-backers-cant-stand-ultrasound-pictures/

Lovely picture - is it real?

Now, imagine looking at the same picture but take away the top of the baby's head. All that skull cavity filled with developing brain, all missing. The baby's head stops from the eyes upwards. The baby has very little, if any, brain activity and virtually no hope of survival beyond birth, if indeed the baby makes it to term.

Imagine that? It's called 'anencephaly' - google it if you want pics, I've got too much class to post them here.

What would YOU do? And do you think it fair to make everyone else do the same?

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

:-) conception and division happen in less than 24 hrs. You can't have a person without conception.

Wrong. Division can happen as late as 15 days (after 12 usually results in conjoined twins). So is it one life at conception which magically becomes two? Is an abortion after 5 days killing two potential lives or just one?

Btw, doing nothing but posting link after link (from openly biased sites no less) with no input of your own is not a debate. If you have a point to make, make it