Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

No point in denying it eh?
Well as you are the one proposing that compulsion was and definitley is still a contributor to the decline of Irish, the onus is on you to back it up.

Now you claim that compulsory Irish makes most kids resent Irish, as previously stated, I don't see any evidence for that, so perhaps you could show me some.
Is that the only reason you think it is definitley a contributor to the decline of Irish or are there others?

Generation after generation of Irish school kids and parents have been saying it forever now. Lots of kids resent learning maths and English too. But neither of those 2 subjects are completely compulsory beyond the JC. Deep down, even the least academic kids can see a point to learning English and maths no matter how much they resent stuff like pythagoras' theorem and Shakespeare.

As for opinion polls...if the Irish language was even half as popular as polls would suggest, we would have at least 10-20% of the population speaking it, not something close to 2%. You can't force someone to like something no matter how hard you try to make them. I also notice that many of the people most strongly in favour of compulsory Irish here admit that they cannot even speak the language fluently, despite there being no shortage of resources to learn the language.

The Irish language should never have been blown way out of proportion and treated as the kind of sacred cow it has been turned into. The language is just one aspect of Irish culture and should be placed alongside Irish music, dancing, history, folklore and culture in general. If people want to study those aspects of our culture and heritage, then good for them. But the hobby horse of a select few should not be made compulsory beyond second or third year in secondary school, and neither should Irish be the sole language learned by children at national school level either (Irish history, folklore and culture happen to be my pet hobby horses, and never would I contemplate forcing anyone to learn any of those up until LC level, or accuse someone of being a "West Brit" just because they don't happen to share in my choice of hobby).

The Irish education system has gone down the crapper in recent years, despite all we have spent on it. Our PISA rankings have slipped, and up to 25% of students are functionally illiterate and/or cannot even do basic everyday math. Despite all the talk about the so called "smart economy" we still do not even have a proper computer science subject at second level. All the while subjects like maths, foreign languages, and science are being neglected in favour of Irish and religion.

A key part of any serious reform and modernization of the curriculum would have to involve cutting back on the number of hours spent on teaching Irish, and ultimately making it optional. Rather than relying on state coercion to make 90% of students fluent, a more realistic approach would be to focus on making the 10% who genuinely want to learn it fluent instead. Then let the language grow organically from that base of 10%. The Irish language has already been through several iterations of reforms over the years, none of which have had the desired long term effect. So I don't see how more variations of the same theme will produce better results.

One more thing: I would suggest anyone who feels strongly on the issue should make their view known to the Minister for Education. There has probably never been a better time to reform and modernize the Irish education system, and now is the time for the silent majority who are sick and tired of the current system to speak up and make their voices heard.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

You have claimed that there is widespread resentment/hatred of the Irish Language and that compulsion is a causal factor in this, you have not shown either to be true in reality, saying there is no point denying it without supporting your argument is nonsense.

The truth "in reality" is summed up by MysticalRain's post:

MysticalRain wrote: »

As for opinion polls...if the Irish language was even half as popular as polls would suggest, we would have at least 10-20% of the population speaking it, not something close to 2%.

Cue someone piping up that it's more than 2%, or points to the census figures. Only in some other dimension. Look at the recent Bród club programme. They were looking for only 100,000 signups(out of a population over 4 million) and didn't even get a quarter of that. Never mind that the "language" being promoted was some diddly eye pidgin, a longer version of that Carlsberg ad which was a tad embarrassing. Resentment/fervour are the extremes, for the vast majority the feeling is indifference with a flavour of "oh FFS".

I also notice that many of the people most strongly in favour of compulsory Irish here admit that they cannot even speak the language fluently, despite there being no shortage of resources to learn the language.

Something I've noted myself more than once.

The Irish education system has gone down the crapper in recent years, despite all we have spent on it. Our PISA rankings have slipped, and up to 25% of students are functionally illiterate and/or cannot even do basic everyday math. Despite all the talk about the so called "smart economy" we still do not even have a proper computer science subject at second level. All the while subjects like maths, foreign languages, and science are being neglected in favour of Irish and religion.

+1000 the quarter of boys that are functionally illiterate figures are beyond scary. IMHO That will affect our future economy and society more than any current financial woes we find ourselves in.

The pro compulsion camp are afraid of one thing above all IMHO. Dropping it's compulsory status would show once and for all the level of actual support among students(and their parents). Again IMHO you would see a massive drop in the number of students signing up for the language and well the pro camp know it. It would show up their claims of support for what they are; BS.

Dammo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So until then, force people to do somethign you admit is not taught very well....?

I suspect that removing compulsory learning would be the death knell for a language that is already struggling badly. Chomh maith le sin, I think that we may well miss it more than we suspect after it is finally gone.

Therefore, 'se mo thuairim, that we should immediately radically overhaul the entire approach to promoting the language, not just in, but starting with, schools.

Try something radically different and if the required result, more genuine usage, doesn't materialise, then make it optional.

Slán

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dammo wrote: »

I suspect that removing compulsory learning would be the death knell for a language that is already struggling badly. Chomh maith le sin, I think that we may well miss it more than we suspect after it is finally gone.

Therefore, 'se mo thuairim, that we should immediately radically overhaul the entire approach to promoting the language, not just in, but starting with, schools.

Try something radically different and if the required result, more genuine usage, doesn't materialise, then make it optional.

Slán

I've said this countless times: the pupose of the education system is NOT to keep the language alive.

The majority of the pro-camp are starting with "the language will this...." or "the language will that...." - we're talking about educating kids here. Not reviving tha language.

So again, how is waiting on reform best ofr the student?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So again, how is waiting on reform best for the student?

You seem to think that just dropping Irish as a compulsory subject is something that could be done over night. Thats not the case, making Irish optional(aside from all the oppisition it would stir up) is not something that can be done just like that, and even if it could it should not, rushing into making major changes in the education system is not something any government should do, change for the sake of change is in no ones best interest.
As for making Irish optional, it would be a fairly fundemental restructuring of the education system that would end up costing quite a bit of money.

Then there is the question of how the education should be structured instead? Do you make a different subject compulsory in the place of Irish, or do you make doing a language compulsory but allow choice of which one or do you go the whole hog and make everything optional.
If you can't answer that question, and make a very good case for which ever option you pick, then more time is needed to find the answers before the state rushes into anything.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

You seem to think that just dropping Irish as a compulsory subject is something that could be done over night. Thats not the case, making Irish optional(aside from all the oppisition it would stir up) is not something that can be done just like that, and even if it could it should not, rushing into making major changes in the education system is not something any government should do, change for the sake of change is in no ones best interest.
As for making Irish optional, it would be a fairly fundemental restructuring of the education system that would end up costing quite a bit of money.

You're putting arguments into my mouth, again because you can't deal with what I said. I never hinted at or suggested anything even remotely close to the word "overnight".

Either deal with the arguments I present, or do as you usually do and leave them, but do not claim arguments I never made.

Then there is the question of how the education should be structured instead? Do you make a different subject compulsory in the place of Irish, or do you make doing a language compulsory but allow choice of which one or do you go the whole hog and make everything optional.

If you can't answer that question, and make a very good case for which ever option you pick, then more time is needed to find the answers before the state rushes into anything.

If you read my arguments, you'd know I've answered this one many times. I am still awaiting your responce to these answers.

GaryIrv93

deise go deo wrote: »

To be honnest this is just saying 'I'm right because I am and you know it'

You said that compulsion is definitley a contributor to the decline of Irish since the foundation of the state, but you have not shown it, you have not supported your argument at all.
I could say the moon was made of cheese if I wanted to. And say there is no point in denying it. I could point to references to it in countless published works. Would that make for a solid argument?

You have claimed that there is widespread resentment/hatred of the Irish Language and that compulsion is a causal factor in this, you have not shown either to be true in reality, saying there is no point denying it without supporting your argument is nonsense.

With all the negative attitudes towards Irish nowadays, which are mainly coming from it's compulsory position, it's safe to say that compulsion has helped lead it into further decline, aside from emigration etc. Read through the thread, other Irish threads and you'll find a great number of negative opinions towards it. Here's one out of countless others:

Cén fáth a ndearna tú trácht ar a bheith "gnóthach" sa choláiste má d'iarr sí ort dul i rith laethanta saoire an tsamhradh? Fás suas agus téigh léi.

Now here's it's reply:

Here, you, f*ck off with this gimmick. There's an Irish forum here so keep your cupla focail bullshít confined to there and don't expose the rest of us to a language that the majority here have already expressed they have no interest in or indeed want to see the death of.

There you go. Taken from thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77651345#post77651345 Is that example enough? Everyone here knows that compulsion is a factor that leads people to hate Irish, therefore less will speak it, therefore it steadily declines. The only links I can find are like ''has Irish declined?/will it decline/die out?'' etc. So I'm using actual people's opinions on the thread and on other threads. And this: read the first line of the page: http://www.rte.ie/tv/thedailyshow/2011/0222/compulsoryirish098.html ''Compulsory Irish only fosters resentment''

I'm supporting my argument by reading people's opinions on this thread and the many others by trying to get you to read them. I shoudn't need to link you them when they're right here in front of you. If you've bothered reading through the different threads, you'd see this, and wouldn't keep on asking me to ''support my argument'' (which I am from stating other people's opinions)

deise go deo

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

With all the negative attitudes towards Irish nowadays, which are mainly coming from it's compulsory position, it's safe to say that compulsion has helped lead it into further decline, aside from emigration etc. Read through the thread, other Irish threads and you'll find a great number of negative opinions towards it. Why is it that there seemed to be no negative attitudes towards Irish during British rule, and at the time of the state's foundation, but there are so many now? Here's one out of countless others:


Now here's it's reply:


There you go. Taken from thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77651345#post77651345 Is that example enough? Everyone here knows that compulsion is a factor that leads people to hate Irish, therefore less will speak it, therefore it steadily declines. The only links I can find are like ''has Irish declined?/will it decline/die out?'' etc. So I'm using actual people's opinions on the thread and on other threads. And this: read the first line of the page: http://www.rte.ie/tv/thedailyshow/2011/0222/compulsoryirish098.html ''Compulsory Irish only fosters resentment''

I'm supporting my argument by reading people's opinions on this thread and the many others by trying to get you to read them. I shoudn't need to link you them when they're right here in front of you. If you've bothered reading through the different threads, you'd see this, and wouldn't keep on asking me to ''support my argument'' (which I am from stating other people's opinions)

A few examples from boards does nothing to show widespread resentment for the Irish Language, and neither does it show a causal link between compulsion and resentment.

Lets say I said that only 6/7% of the population actually resent/hate Irish, how would anything you have shown suggest that resentment is actually more widespread than that?
And how does anything you have shown prove there is a link between resentment and compulsion?

GaryIrv93

deise go deo wrote: »

A few examples from boards does nothing to show widespread resentment for the Irish Language, and neither does it show a causal link between compulsion and resentment.

Lets say I said that only 6/7% of the population actually resent/hate Irish, how would anything you have shown suggest that resentment is actually more widespread than that?
And how does anything you have shown prove there is a link between resentment and compulsion?

Don't just read Boards posts, read the RTE page as well - it says ''Like "compulsory" redundancy, compulsory Irish is an extraordinary unwelcome and blunt instrument. Unquestionably, for many students, its continued retention (forced on students without giving them a choice) can only serve to evoke and sustain a long-lasting resentment and antagonism towards the language.'' Well? That's a fair way to put it. Why would someone just make this up? If it's been mentioned in the country's news, then that's enough proof that it is a problem.

If you do think this (the percentages) then please link where you got it. Combine hatred towards the language itself and hatred towards it's compulsory position. I prefer not to link census's and statistics - you have no idea whether they're actually true or not. Boards is a good example - I prefer actually reading people's own opinions. It's far more accurate.

There is no doubt whatsoever that there's a link between hatred and compulsion - take another person, or yourself for example. Think of an activity, let it be anything and then think to yourself ''would I like it if this was forced upon me?'' No, I wouldn't either. Did you ever like being forced to go to school? I didn't. Would you like the army if you were forced to join and stay in the army? I wouldn't. Would you like being forced to sit in a cage all day? Nope. Would you like being forced to watch a TV show or film that you hated? No again. Would you like... well you get the point. The list would never end. If something was forced on you, of course you'd hate it. I would, and so would anyone else. Of course there's a link, it's human nature - resenting being forced to do something you don't want to do.

GaryIrv93

MysticalRain wrote: »

Generation after generation of Irish school kids and parents have been saying it forever now. Lots of kids resent learning maths and English too. But neither of those 2 subjects are completely compulsory beyond the JC. Deep down, even the least academic kids can see a point to learning English and maths no matter how much they resent stuff like pythagoras' theorem and Shakespeare.

As for opinion polls...if the Irish language was even half as popular as polls would suggest, we would have at least 10-20% of the population speaking it, not something close to 2%. You can't force someone to like something no matter how hard you try to make them. I also notice that many of the people most strongly in favour of compulsory Irish here admit that they cannot even speak the language fluently, despite there being no shortage of resources to learn the language.

The Irish language should never have been blown way out of proportion and treated as the kind of sacred cow it has been turned into. The language is just one aspect of Irish culture and should be placed alongside Irish music, dancing, history, folklore and culture in general. If people want to study those aspects of our culture and heritage, then good for them. But the hobby horse of a select few should not be made compulsory beyond second or third year in secondary school, and neither should Irish be the sole language learned by children at national school level either (Irish history, folklore and culture happen to be my pet hobby horses, and never would I contemplate forcing anyone to learn any of those up until LC level, or accuse someone of being a "West Brit" just because they don't happen to share in my choice of hobby).

The Irish education system has gone down the crapper in recent years, despite all we have spent on it. Our PISA rankings have slipped, and up to 25% of students are functionally illiterate and/or cannot even do basic everyday math. Despite all the talk about the so called "smart economy" we still do not even have a proper computer science subject at second level. All the while subjects like maths, foreign languages, and science are being neglected in favour of Irish and religion.

A key part of any serious reform and modernization of the curriculum would have to involve cutting back on the number of hours spent on teaching Irish, and ultimately making it optional. Rather than relying on state coercion to make 90% of students fluent, a more realistic approach would be to focus on making the 10% who genuinely want to learn it fluent instead. Then let the language grow organically from that base of 10%. The Irish language has already been through several iterations of reforms over the years, none of which have had the desired long term effect. So I don't see how more variations of the same theme will produce better results.

One more thing: I would suggest anyone who feels strongly on the issue should make their view known to the Minister for Education. There has probably never been a better time to reform and modernize the Irish education system, and now is the time for the silent majority who are sick and tired of the current system to speak up and make their voices heard.

Well said,

Wibbs

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Why is it that there seemed to be no negative attitudes towards Irish during British rule, and at the time of the state's foundation, but there are so many now?

Actually G contrary to popular belief it appears negative attitudes to the language were in place before the foundation of the state. It had been in decline since the 18th century.

bananarama22

I agree with the consensus that it should be optional and that forcing people to do something they don't want will only instill a hate for the topic. Ramming pointless depressing poetry down the throats of the young as a means of teaching the language will only create further apathy on the topic. I am of the opinion, that Irish should be an option for children in primary schools (if their parents so choose) to be an extra cirricular subject outside of school hours, taught voluntarily by the people who are "so keen to keep it alive" :rolleyes: just like "Sunday School" in America. In this day and age of growing metropolitanism and ever expanding multiculturalism, I believe that starting day 1 in Junior Infants, a child should be learning Spanish, German, French, etc, and upon seeing the other side of Secondary schol, should be almost 100 % conversant in all of the aforementioned languages. Now in saying that you can't compare the level of English spoken in the likes of Germany for example to the level of German spoken in the likes of Ireland, that is a straw man comparison and doesn't really stand to scrutiny because they over there are exposed to much more Americanism than we are to "Germanism" for lack of a better word.

But to clarify my pooint, NO Irish should not be compulsary

bananarama22

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually G contrary to popular belief it appears negative attitudes to the language were in place before the foundation of the state. It had been in decline since the 18th century.

Plus one to that .. People stopped speaking Irish and moved to English, it was nothing to do with opression as some people might say. Imagine a small area like Euskadi (Basque Region), only speaking Basque, being separate from the rest of Spain and Europe, and not speaking any other language. They'd be pretty fukced too !!

Wibbs

bananarama22 wrote: »

They'd be pretty fukced too !!

Funny enough that region is one of the wealthiest in Spain.

bananarama22

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny enough that region is one of the wealthiest in Spain.

Learn something everyday .. boards certainly is a fountain of knowledge :P

GaryIrv93

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually G contrary to popular belief it appears negative attitudes to the language were in place before the foundation of the state. It had been in decline since the 18th century.

Well I did mention that emigration was another factor than negative attitudes, as bananamara said. But I agree you're probably right, sorry.

deise go deo

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Don't just read Boards posts, read the RTE page as well - it says ''Like "compulsory" redundancy, compulsory Irish is an extraordinary unwelcome and blunt instrument. Unquestionably, for many students, its continued retention (forced on students without giving them a choice) can only serve to evoke and sustain a long-lasting resentment and antagonism towards the language.'' Well? That's a fair way to put it. Why would someone just make this up? If it's been mentioned in the country's news, then that's enough proof that it is a problem.

If you do think this (the percentages) then please link where you got it. Combine hatred towards the language itself and hatred towards it's compulsory position. I prefer not to link census's and statistics - you have no idea whether they're actually true or not. Boards is a good example - I prefer actually reading people's own opinions. It's far more accurate.

There is no doubt whatsoever that there's a link between hatred and compulsion - take another person, or yourself for example. Think of an activity, let it be anything and then think to yourself ''would I like it if this was forced upon me?'' No, I wouldn't either. Did you ever like being forced to go to school? I didn't. Would you like the army if you were forced to join and stay in the army? I wouldn't. Would you like being forced to sit in a cage all day? Nope. Would you like being forced to watch a TV show or film that you hated? No again. Would you like... well you get the point. The list would never end. If something was forced on you, of course you'd hate it. I would, and so would anyone else. Of course there's a link, it's human nature - resenting being forced to do something you don't want to do.

So a journalist wrote an article that agrees with your point of view so it must be true? The words paper never refeused ink spring to mind, to be fair I have no doubt that Tomás does believe that Compulsory Irish fosters resentment, but neither you nor he have actually shown that it does, nor that there is widespread resentment/hatered of Irish.

So lets take a look at your argument again, going to school is compulsory, have you a long-lasting resentment and antagonism twords school?
The vast majority of people who have gone through the Irish education system has been forced to do Maths, English, History, Science, Geography, CSPE and depending on the school you could have been forced to do a language, Art, Home Ec, Tech Drawing, Metal/Woodwork etc at some point, why no resentment/hatred for these subjects?
If compulsion is the causal factor in resentment/hatred, then anything that is compulsory will be resented/hated, this is clearly not the case as far as I can see.


The Irish Language and the Irish People

Main Points to note:
93% in favour of Preserving/Promoting Irish in the future
7% believe it should be disgarded in the future.

It also asked about peoples attutide to the Language both when they were in school and now.

In school:
43% either Somewhat or strongly in Favor
22% either somewhat or strongly opposed.

Now:
56% either somewhat or strongly in Favor
11% either somewhat or strongly opposed.

It is worth noting that those in the youngest age group 18-25 were in all cases more in favor and less opposed than the average.
Another Point worth noting that those who never went to secondary school were much more opposed to compulsary Irish than those who did, and that those who went on to third level were much less opposed than any other group.


The study also raised an interesting point, ''It has been known for a very long time (UNESCO 1958) that aquiring only a nodding aquaintance with a language can lead to frustration, Frustration of course can lead to agression. It is possible that schools which provide a lesser standard of Irish teaching could have built up (unwittingly) a degree of resentment against the language''.

Dammo

All the talk of us learning French, Spanish, etc. in place of a language unique to us is amusing to me.

Why should we? I reckon the vast majority of us who learned these languages in school have done little or nothing with them, apart from order a couple of deochanna on holiday.

Slán

Wibbs

That study is so slanted it's beyond laughable. For a start the sample groups tend to be tiny and the demographics chosen somewhat vague. I'd put as much store in most of that "study" as I would the studies backing up an ad for wrinkle reduction cream. Even then their conclusions are equally dubious. When you look at the overall picture, it's not as definitive as you suggest.

EG Irish language as a basis for Irish unity/identity. The figures break down overall to 30% agree it is. OK, but ranged against that are the cumulative figures for neither agree/disagree, don't know and disagree come to 66 odd per cent. Basically "Meh". This is pretty consistent throughout the various results with a few outliers.

On the aspirations for preservation of the language a tiny amount want Irish only. Naturally as that would be eye swivelingly daft. An equally tiny amount want it bilingual with Irish as the main language. Between them near 10% mind you. The real hardcore. People you don't want to hem you in on a bus seat. Bilingual with English as principle is a third. That makes more sense. The largest group at over 50% want it preserved in the Gaelthact and for cultural type stuff, no bilingual there. 7% want it discarded. Equal in scale to the nutters that might ruin your bus trip. That 50% seem happy to keep it alive, but not quite in their backyard. In their backyard again we have the "meh" factor. So your "93% in favour of Preserving/Promoting Irish in the future" is a nice bit of statistical massaging, but on further analysis doesn't quite break down that way. And this is a clearly biased and small sample group "study". Though for a change that sample group is larger. A full(well nearly) thousand people. I know. Tickle me with a feather and colour me impressed. Not. A couple are literally in the range of eyelash enhancements "surveys" with sample groups of 200 odd and the like.

On the "Now:
56% either somewhat or strongly in Favor
11% either somewhat or strongly opposed.". Cool and the gang, but what about the 33%? More "meh"? Add them to the opposed we get Meh with a hint of feck off at 44%. Now look at the questions themselves. Of that 56% how many are "somewhat" in favour? More "Meh, but yea I suppose so"? If that's a large chunk of that cohort it makes a difference. Slanted questions tend to get you slanted answers.

If that's what passes for scholarship into the Irish language, it's in trouble. It's about as one sided as a one legged man in a leaning contest and just as crap standing up as conclusive proof of anything.

Wibbs

Dammo wrote: »

All the talk of us learning French, Spanish, etc. in place of a language unique to us is amusing to me.

Why should we? I reckon the vast majority of us who learned these languages in school have done little or nothing with them, apart from order a couple of deochanna on holiday.

Which is likely more than most have used Irish. If you have to ask "why should we[learn a world language]" then any further debate is likely to be fruitless. Learn French/Spanish and you have just opened your options to converse with many millions of people in many cultures. Learn Irish and the world is very much narrower and local.

Jess16

Wibbs wrote: »

On the "Now:
56% either somewhat or strongly in Favor
11% either somewhat or strongly opposed.". Cool and the gang, but what about the 33%? More "meh"? Add them to the opposed we get Meh with a hint of feck off at 44%. Now look at the questions themselves. Of that 56% how many are "somewhat" in favour? More "Meh, but yea I suppose so"? If that's a large chunk of that cohort it makes a difference. Slanted questions tend to get you slanted answers.

If that's what passes for scholarship into the Irish language, it's in trouble. It's about as one sided as a one legged man in a leaning contest and just as crap standing up as conclusive proof of anything.

56% in favour is still more than 44% ambivalent or against. For such an ancient language to yield those results in this modern age, I wouldn't call that in trouble at all -pretty ironic though that you're implying the stats are skewed when you're coming out with biased comments like that

Dammo

I'm not saying that kids shouldn't learn a foreign language, come on. What I meant is that the argument that these languages, in practice, are more useful to the average student is thin.

As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that there will be much lamenting the loss of the language once it's finally gone. The language and it's supporters generally haven't a great image out there, but it is unique to us and we may regret losing it for once and for all at a later stage.

I do believe that education has a role to play in keeping languages alive, even Gaeilge. Many people I suspect don't want txt spk to become the written communication of the future and education is likely to be their way of preventing this and keeping 'proper' English alive. Of course I acknowledge the evolution of all languages in saying that.

Slán

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

The Irish Language and the Irish People

Main Points to note:
93% in favour of Preserving/Promoting Irish in the future
7% believe it should be disgarded in the future.

It also asked about peoples attutide to the Language both when they were in school and now.

In school:
43% either Somewhat or strongly in Favor
22% either somewhat or strongly opposed.

Now:
56% either somewhat or strongly in Favor
11% either somewhat or strongly opposed.

The question asked is ridiculous.

1. Do you want to see the language revived?
2. Do you want to see the language preserved?
3. Do you want to see the language discarded and forgotton?

Of course 93% are going to choose the first two because they have this wishy washy sense of nationalism. A more balanced question would be:

• Are you willing to learn irish to a fluent level?

Yes or no, if no then they obviously are not going to want to see it made the de facto language or the republic.

On a side note and even better question would be:

• Are you willing to spend copious amounts of time and energy learning a language with little purpose outside the academic sphere?

Phrase the question what ever way you want but don't tell them it's irish and see how many say yes.

Jess16

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The question asked is ridiculous. Of course 93% are going to choose the first two because they have this wishy washy sense of nationalism.

Your response is ridiculous. How on earth would you know how nationalistic people are or aren't?

Iwasfrozen

Jess16 wrote: »

Your response is ridiculous. How on earth would you know how nationalistic people are or aren't?

Emm, because they say they're in favour of the language but don't learn it? So they see no value in irish beyond the misty eyed nationalistic notion of a gaelic Ireland. Which in the 21st century is just daft basically.

Ever hear of duckspeak? It's an Orwellian term that just means quacking the party line without even thinking about it.

Jess16

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

they see no value in irish beyond the misty eyed nationalistic notion of a gaelic Ireland. Which in the 21st century is just daft basically

Says who -you? Again with the large-scale assumptions. It may come as a shock to all you trend-driven 20 year olds but lots of us actually value a bit of history and are proud to be Irish and all it entails.

Also, do you have anything that you hold on to for sentimental reasons but never really use and would still hate to be without? Exactly

Iwasfrozen

Jess16 wrote: »

Says who -you? Again with the large-scale assumptions.

Do you have anything that you hold on to for sentimental reasons but never really use and would still hate to be without? Exactly

Ok let me go through this with you.

The data shows a large proportion of people in favour of the language.

Yet there is a very few speakers of irish. Which tells me people are willing to shout their support for the language but are not bothered to actually learn it.

Which means there is another reason they are in favour of the language. Since they don't want to speak it. This can only be nationalism.

Nationalism can lead to some very silly outcomes and people will quack their support for irish language funding without actually thinking about what it means.

Do you follow me now?

Dostoevsky

bananarama22 wrote: »

Plus one to that .. People stopped speaking Irish and moved to English, it was nothing to do with opression as some people might say.

Yeah, there is absolutely no connection between control of power in this state by the biggest empire in world history and the decline of the Irish language during that crucial period. None, at all. It was the amazing grammar of English which won the people of Ireland over. Nothing to do with power dynamics. Nope.

Well done.

Jess16

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ok let me go through this with you.

The data shows a large proportion of people in favour of the language.

Yet there is a very few speakers of irish. Which tells me people are willing to shout their support for the language but are not bothered to actually learn it.

Which means there is another reason they are in favour of the language. Since they don't want to speak it. This can only be nationalism.

Nationalism can lead to some very silly outcomes and people will quack their support for irish language funding without actually thinking about what it means.

Do you follow me now?

You're funny My point clearly sailed right over your head yet you're arrogant enough to take my refuting your point as not comprehending it.

Ní fiú bheith ag caint sa comhrá gan ciall

Iwasfrozen

Jess16 wrote: »

You're funny My point clearly sailed right over your head yet you're arrogant enough to take my refuting your point as not comprehending it.

Ní fiú bheith ag caint sa comhrá gan ciall

Ok then. Care to iterate your point for poor unfortunates such as myself who cannot comprehend your posts?

As an aside you can't post in irish without giving a translation.