Eircom eFibre VDSL/FTTC rollout – plans to reach 1.6m premises by mid 2016

Solair

I suppose it would depend on whether it makes economic sense to do it or, if it would just make more sense to use eircom's local access fibre infrastructure and backhaul it onto their own network at the local unbundled node where they already have fibre access.

arctan

lots of room in the cabs for FTTC for unbundling, all they have to do is fit their own DSLAM in the cab

arctan

Sponge Bob wrote: »

On a decent sized order....such as the one eircom allegedly gave Huawei late last year ...it could go as low as €20k-30k per unit for 100 line capacity. That is all in with VDSL gear, factory built and trucked onsite.

Site acquisition and fibre backhaul are extra.

Perhaps if the cabinet is large, serving 200-300 lines and must also house other operators gear for Sub Loop unbundling it could go as high as €50k per unit (and looks kinda like this specimen from another country)

that cab looks a bit more like a pop site exchange .... still FTTC I suppose

edit: actually, looking at it again, maybe because its just very populated that's why im getting the impression its bigger lol

all the eircom cabs have to be under 3 cubic meters to get away without getting planning permission, so no site aquisition needed (some sort of service provision clause in planning permission, along with them replacing existing cabs), not too sure on the prices for the cabs, they picked Huawei as the vendor, but there are some Alcatel Lucent boxes about as they had a competition for the contract

NewHillel

Solair wrote: »

I suppose it would depend on whether it makes economic sense to do it or, if it would just make more sense to use eircom's local access fibre infrastructure and backhaul it onto their own network at the local unbundled node where they already have fibre access.

That's exactly it, IMO active sub-loop unbundling is the better option, given the demographics.

Sponge Bob

NewHillel wrote: »

That's exactly it, IMO active sub-loop unbundling is the better option, given the demographics.

Sub loop unbundling and fast VDSL is almost impossible to do. This is because one device needs to carry out the spectrum management ( stop the VDSL lines from interfering with each other in real time) and eircom will own that device.

While theoretically you can have a number of DSLAMs in a cab they all come under one DSM device.

If the DSM 'broker' device were hived out to a third party to manage it could be done perhaps. This would mean eircom wholesale own the DSM and eircom retail and the other ISPs have to put their own DSLAMs in there under its overall control.

Good point about the planning permission Arctan. It is time we revisited that issue I think....increasing the cubic sq meterage that is exempt.

bealtine

NewHillel wrote: »

That's exactly it, IMO active sub-loop unbundling is the better option, given the demographics.

SLU is not ever going to happen certainly in Ireland anyway. ADSL and VDSL in the same binder cause too much crosstalk so only one operator is required to operate the vectoring technology that cancels the crosstalk. So one operator controls the binder and other operators just have to use bitstream type access

Sponge Bob

Huawei ( recently) claim to have developed a device that will 'instruct' multiple VDSL capable DSLAMs to co exist. They call it 'Node Level Vectoring' but that is a marketing term.

http://dslprime.com/dslprime/42-d/4650-node-scale-breaks-through-at-huawei

The industry standard is G.Vector which is also known as DSM Level 3 There can be ONE G.Vector controller per site, cab or building.

However as i said for this deployment model to work all the DSLAMs in a cab or a building need to be fully G.Vector compliant and all need to work with the 'master' on that site.

This inevitably means that eircom wholesale only own the cab and G.Vector master ( and the copper/fibre/power ) but that every ISP must own its own G.Vector compliant DSLAM...eg eircom Retail and Vodafone and Digiweb for example inside the one cab. In effect every DSLAM should be unbundled on the Vector plane...or nobody is.

http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/blogs/techzine/2011/boosting-vdsl2-bit-rates-with-vectoring/

Because sophisticated noise cancellation is Central Processing Unit (CPU)-intensive, vectoring works best for the smaller number of lines (few hundred) typically found in Fiber to the x (FTTx) deployments — and where measurements are available from all lines. This means that the lines all need to be under full control of a single service provider for optimal performance gains.

Currently the eircom Wholesale DSLAM also manages the copper interference issue at system level but not in co operation with another DSLAM. This model means sub loop unbundling is impossible in practice. Way it is.

Further reading here

Psygnosis

I wonder if anyone has any inside knwoledge of what cabinets exchanges are going to be enabled. The reason why I started this thread is because Im in Rush in No,CoDublin and the exchange is not in an arses roar of any big housing estates so essentially the max speed you get in Rush around 3mb because of distance. The fibre link that came in with the interconnector is very near by.

Solair

Psygnosis wrote: »

I wonder if anyone has any inside knwoledge of what cabinets exchanges are going to be enabled. The reason why I started this thread is because Im in Rush in No,CoDublin and the exchange is not in an arses roar of any big housing estates so essentially the max speed you get in Rush around 3mb because of distance. The fibre link that came in with the interconnector is very near by.

I think this technology will solve what is quite a significant problem for people who live in houses in areas that basically didn't have proper telecommunications infrastructure put in by eircom in the 1990s / 2000s.

There was a lot of housing developed in what are basically outlying rural areas around Dublin (and also Cork) and a few other places which were just connected to a relatively far away exchange using traditional copper lines.

The result of this was really poor DSL service as they're just too far from the DSLAM in the local exchange.

FTTC will ultimately mean that they can install all that gear in a single housing estate and just replace the long run of copper lines with a single fibre.

So, it should mean that a lot of those outer commuter belt type places, and also some small villages, will suddenly have access to decent broadband for once!

Sponge Bob

stevenf17 wrote: »

Found this presentation on NGN site
http://www.nextgenerationnetwork.ie/downloads/rollout_programme_overview/nga_rollout_presentation.ppt

Slide 13 shows where there thinking of rolling out FTTC to!

Is Rush shown on slide 13 ??? It is a top 100 exchange by Paths Served (lines) so probably yes. However unlike the similar sized Balbriggan and Ashbourne there is no UPC that I know of so perhaps not.

lucernarian

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Is Rush shown on slide 13 ??? It is a top 100 exchange by Paths Served (lines) so probably yes. However unlike the similar sized Balbriggan and Ashbourne there is no UPC that I know of so perhaps not.

Most of Balbriggan doesn't have UPC. In the case of Rush, it was in range of Kilkeel so UPC never came there (same as Drogheda, Bettystown and Laytown)

10belowzero

Rush + Lusk were originally to be the first area to be used for the fibre trial - 4/5 year's back , a whole new duct was cut in and ran from the exch to Lusk .
However the very same week , that duct was completed , a new duct was put in on the opposite side of the road to accommodate a M.A.N'S fibre for the N.B.S , at which point Eircom immediately shelved the plan for the trial ,the new duct to Rush was never laid .
UPC have recently installed a new network in some estates in Lusk , but not in Rush ,although some area's of Rush are cabled for UPC , since the day's of Cablelink , I don't think they have ever been used.
On planning , permission is required for everything , even for routine cab replacement or road opening etc.
Wayleave's for a new pole can take as much as 20 day's to a month , a road crossing or opening licence can take even longer , depending on the council etc.
I have seen area's left with no service , due to the time needed to get the road licence to open road's to repair or replace damaged or blocked duct's.
How ever on the like's of a roll out , all this can be arranged in advance between the various planner's , as it is in everybody's interest to keep road and pedestrian traffic disturbance to a minimum.
The fibre roll out in Sword's is really in full swing now , with Donabate and Portrane not far behind.

lucernarian

What? The Metropolitan Area Networks have nothing to do with the National Broadband Scheme.

Where are you getting your info on Rush and Lusk being the start of some fibre trial from? I'd say the main cause of eircom stopping work would have been from the lack of cash and their asset-stripping owners. From the outset eircom refused to use MAN fibre or ducting too.

Sponge Bob

Essential services like eircom and UPC should be able to fire one single package of cabs/ducts etc into a given local authority for approval by Water and Roads engineers ( not full planning permission) ....I would accept individual planning applications for individual masts is required.

Otherwise you get this sort of borderline farcical situation.

UPC are enabling their stranded fragments such as Balbriggan and Stamullen nowadays (I assume Lusk and Monasterevin are on the list to be done some time) but generally capped at 25mbits owing to lack of backhaul capability.

Solair

I find it absolutely insane that we didn't mandate that a neutral duct network be laid in every new housing development during the building boom.

All you need is a network of adequately large ducts and a site to place cabinets, with an ESB power hook up.

That way operators like eircom, UPC or anyone else can site equipment and reach houses without digging up streets or without major costs or disruption.

I also see no particular reason why UPC or others cannot use eircom (or even ESB) distribution poles in areas that still have an overhead network.

Also, in many urban areas, there are still overhead drops to houses. I can't see why a fibre couldn't simply run up a pole and overhead to a house. It's done in the US all the time..

FiOS connections are often just clipped to overhead phone lines from the nearest utility pole!

10belowzero

http://www.e-net.ie/selected-map.html , the whole Lusk area had billboard's put up at the time by Eircom announcing the plan.
The M.A.N's + N.B.S are 2 side's of the one coin , both funded by government money .
Why would Eircom use M.A.N's fibre or duct's when they all ready had their own plant in situ.
Anyhoo it's probably just as well considering how much the technology has changed in the interim.

Sponge Bob

Well hang on a sec. eircom used to get government money for ducting/fibre exercises on an intraregional scale (exchange to exchange festoons) until they handed back a tranche of cash c.2001 and walked away.

The MAN program was conceived and executed thereafter.....ie while the O'Reilly and Soros era eircom were asset stripping and not investing. eircom did come up with a genius plan to take 'up to' €500m of public money in 2008 or so. The genius plan started with softening up the yokels in Tullamore ( Tullamore is surprisingly off the list now )

http://www.offalyindependent.ie/news/aroundthecounty/articles/2008/04/18/26871-eircom-unveils-plans-for-europes-fastest-broadband-in-tullamore/

Eircom unveils plans for Europes fastest broadband in Tullamore

Eircom has unveiled ambitious plans for extending its new fibre-optic cable broadband service to Tullamore as part of a new system which they say will provide state of the art internet services for all nine 'Gateway Towns' designated by the Government for accelerated development.

Athlone, Tullamore and Mullingar have been included as part of Eircom?s plans to provide 50 - 55% of the Irish population with broadband which they say will be as fast - if not faster - than anywhere else in Europe.

They were ignored. However they have improved the separation of Wholesale and Retail since 2008 and perhaps should no longer be ignored. Rabbittes long overdue 'task force' report may have some pointers.

Back to 2008

As part of a 41-page submission to the Government, the company emphasised that it can provide half the population with internet speeds of up to 25 mps (megabits per second) within 7 years should their plans be approved.

They largely did it from their own resources in the 4 years since, calling it NGB. That was because they had to....and they knew they would have to 4 years ago seeing as Docsis 3 was ratified in December 2007 by the ITU.

stevenf17

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Is Rush shown on slide 13 ??? It is a top 100 exchange by Paths Served (lines) so probably yes. However unlike the similar sized Balbriggan and Ashbourne there is no UPC that I know of so perhaps not.

From what i can see Rush is on it!
Have a look yourself!

Sponge Bob

Yes. You can see the exchange boundaries more clearly here ( in Orange) and can click on them to see which exchanges they are. Give it 20 secs to load.

TechnoFreek

Arklow figure in Eircom's plans? Speeds are criminally slow here, 2mb tops, many housing estates are a couple ok kilometres from the exchange.

NewHillel

bealtine wrote: »

SLU is not ever going to happen certainly in Ireland anyway. ADSL and VDSL in the same binder cause too much crosstalk so only one operator is required to operate the vectoring technology that cancels the crosstalk. So one operator controls the binder and other operators just have to use bitstream type access

That certainly is one view.

It would appear that Vectoring offers great potential. There are obstacles, as all DSL equipment has to be compliant. At the moment, all equipment also has to be under common control. It remains to be seen how it pans out.

mobil 222

would depend on the duct lay-out whether its old or new .i think most of the duct in Letterkenny is new

PseudoFamous

TechnoFreek wrote: »

Arklow figure in Eircom's plans? Speeds are criminally slow here, 2mb tops, many housing estates are a couple ok kilometres from the exchange.

This, this, this, a hundred times. I *think* I'm about 1km from my estate's exchange (which oddly isn't the nearest one), but my neighbour is managing about 4mb/s during the depths of night, when his broadband is fastest due to no congestion. Despite this, about 100m across from me, in a newer estate (still ~10 years old), which is equidistant from the nearest cabinet, another friend has consistently above 10mb/s. Both are on the 24mb plan, and I'd get signed to it if there was any chance I'd get even half the advertised speed.

nickhilliard

daffy_duc wrote: »

Yep, Eircom FTTH wholesaled by Magnet.
To keep things fair, pings to INEX on each differ by around 8ms. With the FTTH being highest at about 11ms.

daffy, if you're pinging inex, please use the current beacon address. You can get the address from RIPE whois in the "pingable" attribute for "route: 193.242.111.0/24" (currently 193.242.111.6). Pings to ns.inex.ie currently go through through equipment which may introduce significant latency.

-nick

daffy_duc

nickhilliard wrote: »

daffy, if you're pinging inex, please use the current beacon address. You can get the address from RIPE whois in the "pingable" attribute for "route: 193.242.111.0/24" (currently 193.242.111.6). Pings to ns.inex.ie currently go through through equipment which may introduce significant latency.

-nick

Thanks Nick.

For completeness, here are my results.

IBB VL:
--- 193.242.111.6 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99153ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.589/2.142/4.063/0.492 ms

Magnet FTTH (wholesale Eircom):
--- 193.242.111.6 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99169ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 3.231/3.676/7.302/0.404 ms


So, on average, my wireless link has about a third lower latency.

Moral of that story, don't write off wireless competely, it has its applications.

Speed, Low latency, mobility. Pick any 2.

Gonzo

practically all towns and large villages in meath are due an upgrade to fibre except Dunshaughlin, typical:(

Psygnosis

Any one got the dates for the roll out schedule and exchanges.

bealtine

Psygnosis wrote: »

Any one got the dates for the roll out schedule and exchanges.

Still only at the "possible" stage really but they are working on it slowly (exceedingly fast for eircom though)

arctan

10 previously mentioned are being worked on at the moment, all due to be finished by mid July ...

45 in the advanced planning stage, so work on them should start on them when gangs are finished in their areas, although could be sooner, as NGA teams are still being put together

as for the other 45 ... havent a clue where they are, but I can only presume they'll ones mentioned in that top 100 list spongebob had up somewhere

Praetorian

arctan wrote: »

10 previously mentioned are being worked on at the moment, all due to be finished by mid July ...

45 in the advanced planning stage, so work on them should start on them when gangs are finished in their areas, although could be sooner, as NGA teams are still being put together

as for the other 45 ... havent a clue where they are, but I can only presume they'll ones mentioned in that top 100 list spongebob had up somewhere

Anyone got a list of the 10, and the second 45?