What a spineless nation...

dvpower

stupidusername wrote: »

well you can't tell that they're not right either.

but yeah I agree it should be broken down further, especially as the whole thing is labelled as how much is being lost through fraud. but I haven't read the whole thing yet, way too tired, so maybe it is broken down, I don't know.

It is hard to make sense of it.

It's pretty shocking that they mix the crime figures and the honest mistake / incompetence figures all in the same release. There should be a few sets of stats;
1. stuff we've paid out by mistake (but have copped on to now).
2. stuff that was overclaimed, by mistake, by our customers (but we've copped on to now)
3. stuff people defrauded from us (that we know about)
4. stuff that may have been defrauded from us (but certainly isn't now because of things we did).

Actually there are probably a couple of other categories that don't come to mind - but the point is that just because it can't be categories as fraud, doesn't automatically mean that its down to DSP error.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

It is hard to make sense of it.

It's pretty shocking that they mix the crime figures and the honest mistake / incompetence figures all in the same release. There should be a few sets of stats;
1. stuff we've paid out by mistake (but have copped on to now).
2. stuff that was overclaimed, by mistake, by our customers (but we've copped on to now)
3. stuff people defrauded from us (that we know about)
4. stuff that may have been defrauded from us (but certainly isn't now because of things we did).

Actually there are probably a couple of other categories that don't come to mind - but the point is that just because it can't be categories as fraud, doesn't automatically mean that its down to DSP error.

All very true,
It's a pity burton wasn't as honest in her press conference.

Robdude

Most lasting change happens slowly. Opinions don't change overnight.

When people stop accepting fraud in their neighborhoods, even if it's passively reporting some *criminal* that is breaking the law....they are asserting to themselves that criminal behaviour isn't to be tolerated.

Sure, they aren't doing much - just a phone call. But they are making a connection, 'Someone does something bad, I do SOMETHING about it'.

After a while, that attitude will become the norm. When people are comfortable calling someone to stop a crime, it will be easier for them to do more. When the general attitude is, 'Someone notified the authorities and stopped a criminal, let's THANK HIM' instead of 'Someone notified the authorities and stopped a criminal, HE IS A SNITCH!' people are going to be willing to do more than an anonymous phone call. And they'll feel confident that if they do stick their neck out, the general public opinion will be that they are HEROES not scumbags.

And then you'll see people who have the courage and support to speak out against bigger criminals and bigger forms of corruption.

Who benefits of a culture of 'Don't snitch'? Honest people? No. Criminals. Criminals want you to be quiet. Your attitude EMPOWERS criminals to continue breaking the law.

gerryo777

Robdude wrote: »

Most lasting change happens slowly. Opinions don't change overnight.

When people stop accepting fraud in their neighborhoods, even if it's passively reporting some *criminal* that is breaking the law....they are asserting to themselves that criminal behaviour isn't to be tolerated.

Sure, they aren't doing much - just a phone call. But they are making a connection, 'Someone does something bad, I do SOMETHING about it'.

After a while, that attitude will become the norm. When people are comfortable calling someone to stop a crime, it will be easier for them to do more. When the general attitude is, 'Someone notified the authorities and stopped a criminal, let's THANK HIM' instead of 'Someone notified the authorities and stopped a criminal, HE IS A SNITCH!' people are going to be willing to do more than an anonymous phone call. And they'll feel confident that if they do stick their neck out, the general public opinion will be that they are HEROES not scumbags.

And then you'll see people who have the courage and support to speak out against bigger criminals and bigger forms of corruption.

Who benefits of a culture of 'Don't snitch'? Honest people? No. Criminals. Criminals want you to be quiet. Your attitude EMPOWERS criminals to continue breaking the law.

One of the problems is that it has to be led from the top.

When all people see are junior ministers getting €17k on top of their already over inflated salaries, claiming un-vouched for expenses just for turning up for work, awarding their 'advisors' extra payments above and beyond what was agreed, PS workers still getting pay rises in the middle of a recession and any amount of other things, it's quite understandable as to why getting a few quid extra on the dole or working a few days in the black market is seen as acceptable.

Freddie59

gerryo777 wrote: »

One of the problems is that it has to be led from the top.

When all people see are junior ministers getting €17k on top of their already over inflated salaries, claiming un-vouched for expenses just for turning up for work, awarding their 'advisors' extra payments above and beyond what was agreed, PS workers still getting pay rises in the middle of a recession and any amount of other things, it's quite understandable as to why getting a few quid extra on the dole or working a few days in the black market is seen as acceptable.

But the day is approaching when all of their gravy trains will be derailed. Ireland is like someone with a limited income who is borrowing from all and sundry, whilst maxing out their credit cards. A limit will be reached. And it will be all over.

gerryo777

Freddie59 wrote: »

But the day is approaching when all of their gravy trains will be derailed. Ireland is like someone with a limited income who is borrowing from all and sundry, whilst maxing out their credit cards. A limit will be reached. And it will be all over.

I would love to think that was the case but the protected interests in our society will always be protected.
Turkeys won't vote for christmas.

Freddie59

gerryo777 wrote: »

I would love to think that was the case but the protected interests in our society will always be protected.
Turkeys won't vote for christmas.

They may not have a choice Gerry.;)

Robdude

gerryo777 wrote: »

One of the problems is that it has to be led from the top.

When all people see are junior ministers getting €17k on top of their already over inflated salaries, claiming un-vouched for expenses just for turning up for work, awarding their 'advisors' extra payments above and beyond what was agreed, PS workers still getting pay rises in the middle of a recession and any amount of other things, it's quite understandable as to why getting a few quid extra on the dole or working a few days in the black market is seen as acceptable.

I totally agree. But you end up in a vicious cycle where everyone uses everyone else's fraud as justification for their own. It's not sustainable.

dark crystal

Robdude wrote: »

Most lasting change happens slowly. Opinions don't change overnight.

When people stop accepting fraud in their neighborhoods, even if it's passively reporting some *criminal* that is breaking the law....they are asserting to themselves that criminal behaviour isn't to be tolerated.

Sure, they aren't doing much - just a phone call. But they are making a connection, 'Someone does something bad, I do SOMETHING about it'.

After a while, that attitude will become the norm. When people are comfortable calling someone to stop a crime, it will be easier for them to do more. When the general attitude is, 'Someone notified the authorities and stopped a criminal, let's THANK HIM' instead of 'Someone notified the authorities and stopped a criminal, HE IS A SNITCH!' people are going to be willing to do more than an anonymous phone call. And they'll feel confident that if they do stick their neck out, the general public opinion will be that they are HEROES not scumbags.

And then you'll see people who have the courage and support to speak out against bigger criminals and bigger forms of corruption.

Who benefits of a culture of 'Don't snitch'? Honest people? No. Criminals. Criminals want you to be quiet. Your attitude EMPOWERS criminals to continue breaking the law.

But where do these phone calls stop?

I mean, would you report someone you know for illegally downloading music or films?

Would you report two 16 year olds you know engaging in consensual sex?

Would you report your neighbour for having an unlicenced dog or enjoying a spliff every now and again?


If you are going start reporting crime, then you should at least be consistant about it and report every crime someone you know engages in.

It'll end up making you look extremely petty and miserable, but if you're going to make a stand about being a good citizen and reporting crime wherever you see it happening, then that's what you have to do.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a struggling person make a few quid on the side in order to pay their bills, rather than report them and see the money go back into greedy politicians and bankers back pockets.

I guess that just makes me a bad citizen, though.

gerryo777

dark crystal wrote: »

But where do these phone calls stop?

I mean, would you report someone you know for illegally downloading music or films?

Would you report two 16 year olds you know engaging in consensual sex?

Would you report your neighbour for having an unlicenced dog or enjoying a spliff every now and again?


If you are going start reporting crime, then you should at least be consistant about it and report every crime someone you know engages in.

It'll end up making you look extremely petty and miserable, but if you're going to make a stand about being a good citizen and reporting crime wherever you see it happening, then that's what you have to do.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a struggling person make a few quid on the side in order to pay their bills, rather than report them and see the money go back into greedy politicians and bankers back pockets.

I guess that just makes me a bad citizen, though.

Maybe if these SW officers are as brilliant at their jobs as they reckon they are, they should get on with it and do their jobs properly and not be depending on 'snitches' to do it for them.

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

Maybe if these SW officers are as brilliant at their jobs as they reckon they are, they should get on with it and do their jobs properly and not be depending on 'snitches' to do it for them.

And the Gardai should stop answering those 999 calls - lazy bastards, expecting others to report crime that they should be detecting.:rolleyes:

lividduck

gerryo777 wrote: »

Dr. Sean Healy - Social Justice Ireland
I reckon he read the whole report, did you?

Father Sean Healy, and we all know priests dont lie!

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

And the Gardai should stop answering those 999 calls - lazy bastards, expecting others to report crime that they should be detecting.:rolleyes:

Predictable answer.

gerryo777

lividduck wrote: »

Father Sean Healy, and we all know priests dont lie!

What was that about generalisations?

dark crystal

dvpower wrote: »

And the Gardai should stop answering those 999 calls - lazy bastards, expecting others to report crime that they should be detecting.:rolleyes:

Lol, a good point.

The only difference though is that SW fraud is much easier to detect in that a lot of fraud could be stopped if SW officer A's computer just spoke to SW officer B's computer.

The welfare system itself also badly needs to be overhauled and the courts really should be stricter on making absent fathers pay maintenance for their children. Birth certificates are all on computer and these fathers should be chased up and made to pay towards the children they helped create.

I also think it's a mistake to penalise unmarried couples for living under the same roof. A system of family tax credits would be a far better idea imo, but that's a whole other thread!

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

Predictable answer.

I know. You make it too easy.

dark crystal wrote: »

The only difference though is that SW fraud is much easier to detect in that a lot of fraud could be stopped if SW officer A's computer just spoke to SW officer B's computer.

Welfare fraud can be very difficult to detect. For example, if someone is working and claiming, that can go on forever without detection unless they are stupid enough to be using their PPS number. To detect this type of fraud usually requires that someone reports it.

I'm not sure what category of fraud would be detected if Social Welfare computers were linked up (I'm sure they already are)? Maybe better sharing between different government departments (e.g. Social Welfare and Revenue) would detect some fraud.

ilovesleep

It is estimated that SW fraud is 300 million.

Yesterday, wastage was reported in the irish independent from politicians:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-political-parties-splash-13m-taxpayers-cash-3023167.html

This is on top of their pay packs, unvouched expenses, their perks and entitlements, and their invested interests and quangos.

The mahon tribunal has so far cost 97 million - one third of the estimated SW fraud. I see there is no uproar about that that very clear example of abuse of the taxpayers money.

It's hyprocritical to actively target one group and not the other. I ask what is activately being done to make politicians toe the line in this broken state?

dvpower

ilovesleep wrote: »

The mahon tribunal has so far cost 97 million - one third of the estimated SW fraud. I see there is no uproar about that that very clear example of abuse of the taxpayers money.

It's hyprocritical to actively target one group and not the other. I ask what is activately being done to make politicians toe the line in this broken state?

Is their fraud going on at the Mahon tribunal?:eek:

Red_Wake

ilovesleep wrote: »

It is estimated that SW fraud is 300 million.

Yesterday, wastage was reported in the irish independent from politicians:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-political-parties-splash-13m-taxpayers-cash-3023167.html

This is on top of their pay packs, unvouched expenses, their perks and entitlements, and their invested interests and quangos.

The mahon tribunal has so far cost 97 million - one third of the estimated SW fraud. I see there is no uproar about that that very clear example of abuse of the taxpayers money.

It's hyprocritical to actively target one group and not the other. I ask what is activately being done to make politicians toe the line in this broken state?

Except the Mahon Tribunal took place over a number of years.

Presumably the 300m fraud in social welfare is per annum, and thus is more than 3 times larger than the cost of the Mahon Tribunal.

dvpower

Red_Wake wrote: »

Except the Mahon Tribunal took place over a number of years.

Presumably the 300m fraud in social welfare is per annum, and thus is more than 3 times larger than the cost of the Mahon Tribunal.

Not to mention the millions of taxes that have been collected as a direct result of the Mahon tribunal.

riclad

300 million is nothing compared with the money spent on pensions for politicians ,retiring high paid civil servants and the billions being paid to anglo bondholders.
I don,t understand why a civil servant at 50 years of age needs a 70k pension and lump sum payment when the government is borrowing 20billion a year to pay the bills.
I never said everyone in a council house is on welfare,thats your assumption.Theres many areas where
90 per cent of the houses have been bought from the
council,and most of the residents are working or retired on an old age pension.
She went off welfare 2 years ago ,shes training to be a chemist .IN reference to the woman in my first post on this thread.
IN the present crisis it would make more sense to say max civil service pension will be 45k, or any pension for a civil servant over 40 is taxed at 75 per cent rate .
Its morally wrong for the government to sack teachers while people are retiring on such large pensions,although i understand many civil servants are on just the average wage.

gerryo777

I wonder how much fraud goes on in the PS?
Anyone heard of 'the bubble room'?
Anyone in the PS want to come on and enlighten us?
Or is it not to be spoken of outside the PS?
Just wondering, like....

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

I wonder how much fraud goes on in the PS?
Anyone heard of 'the bubble room'?
Anyone in the PS want to come on and enlighten us?
Or is it not to be spoken of outside the PS?
Just wondering, like....

Is it anything like 'the padded cell'?

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

Is it anything like 'the padded cell'?

1.

gerryo777

Actually, here's a point dvpower.
Going by your posts I would presume that you work in the PS.
Now you know, as well as I know that there are people in that system who do nothing or as little as possible all day.
People who underperform in their jobs, people who just keep their heads down and don't get noticed,people who aren't allowed to move to a different section because their union reps say so etc etc.
I know a few people who work in the PS and they all tell me it's a piece of p**s, they spend a lot of time on facebook, football forums and sending private emails during work hours.
Is that not a fraud of sorts?

tayto lover

gerryo777 wrote: »

Actually, here's a point dvpower.
Going by your posts I would presume that you work in the PS.
Now you know, as well as I know that there are people in that system who do nothing or as little as possible all day.
People who underperform in their jobs, people who just keep their heads down and don't get noticed,people who aren't allowed to move to a different section because their union reps say so etc etc.
I know a few people who work in the PS and they all tell me it's a piece of p**s, they spend a lot of time on facebook, football forums and sending private emails during work hours.
Is that not a fraud of sorts?

i know a few men who told me the opposite.

Seanchai

Gi joe! wrote: »

Honestly what are you hoping to accomplish with this post?

What did you hope to accomplish with you post? What does anybody hope to accomplish with their posts? How would Boards.ie survive without thousands of evidently stupid, pointless people making evidently stupid, pointless posts?

AudreyHepburn

dark crystal wrote: »

Audrey, the situation is not always as black and white as people make out.

Someone living on €188 a week may well be trying to find work, but not having any success. A huge bill comes in and this person has to pay it, but the dole doesn't even come near to what they need to pay this bill, get food on the table and pay the mortgage as well.

Someone offers them two days work, for which they can earn enough to pay this bill, so they take it and don't declare it to SW, as it will mean jumping through a pile red tape and possibly losing future payments.

Would you seriously consider turning this person in?

If you are not entitled to the dole, or to the amount, then you shouldn't get it, simple as. You are keeping back money from those who really need it

And surely anyone receiving such payments has a duty of disclosure when something in their personal situation, which could alter their entitlements, changes?

steddyeddy

How many objected to the dodgy building practices? To the dodgy and often illegal activities in the banking sector? How many object to the attitude of neoptisim, cronyisim and corrutpion in this country? Yet people object to someone claiming social welfare when they shouldnt.

This country really needs to stop accepting the sh1t coming from their politicians. How many has been prosecuted over corruption and other dodgy practices in this country? Get your priorities right ireland.

AudreyHepburn

dark crystal wrote: »

But where do these phone calls stop?

I mean, would you report someone you know for illegally downloading music or films?

Would you report two 16 year olds you know engaging in consensual sex?

Would you report your neighbour for having an unlicenced dog or enjoying a spliff every now and again?


If you are going start reporting crime, then you should at least be consistant about it and report every crime someone you know engages in.

It'll end up making you look extremely petty and miserable, but if you're going to make a stand about being a good citizen and reporting crime wherever you see it happening, then that's what you have to do.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a struggling person make a few quid on the side in order to pay their bills, rather than report them and see the money go back into greedy politicians and bankers back pockets.

I guess that just makes me a bad citizen, though.

Teenagers messing around and free music don't hurt anyone.

Drugs or dangerous dogs could and do.

If something does not pose a risk to others than I would have no interest in reporting.

Social Welfare Fraud means places in the queue are being kept from people who really need the money.