Extra services for Nenagh branch!

LXFlyer

dowlingm wrote: »

IE Nenagh "Commuter"
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0812 dep Castleconnell 0820 arr Limerick 0840
BE 323 (ex Birr)
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0800 - runs express - arr Limerick 0835

Sheer madness. One arm of CIE running head to head with another. The bus which in theory should be more flexible, make more stops bypasses Plassey/Castletroy. What should be is that the northern part of the 323 should deliver Birr/Borrisokane people to meet the train at Nenagh and IE commit to lifting service speed to get into Limerick at 0825-30 to compensate for Limerick Station being a little remote from the city centre.

EDIT: Incidentally, does anyone know why the Nenagh train holds until 0745 - is it an issue with a slot from Killonan-Limerick?

It was (seemingly) the optimal time to leave Nenagh that passengers suggested.

Boulevardier

Lxflyer, I flatly disagree with you. I think that the running of direct trains to and from Dublin is key to the future of this entire route. Without this, the critical mass of business on the line simply isn't going to appear.

People need to know that they can hop on a train in Kingsbridge and hop off in Roscrea, Nenagh or somewhere close to UL. Otherwise, car or bus will continue to make more sense to most people.

LXFlyer

dowlingm wrote: »

according to Mark Gleeson the 22000 is slower on the branch than a 27 but the timetable is 10mins less... which (22k slower) makes sense as the gearing is probably more advantageous on a commuter railcar for a route which never gets north of 50mph.

FIASCO.

There are have been issues with 22k performance where the schedules (presumably simulated by the computer) and subsequent real life performance bear no resemblance. They seem to be where there are significant numbers of TSRs (where the train is accelerating and decelerating regularly) and serious track curvature.

The DSER had this problem when the 22k sets started there and there had to be changes, and it appears that the same thing is happening on the Nenagh branch. If it persists I would assume a revised schedule will appear with the train starting out of Limerick earlier.

These things can happen - but it is up to the railway company to fix them asap. The schedulers need to find out where the train is losing time and why, and then address the schedule accordingly.

Incidentally I would suggest MG is not quite the ultimate oracle of knowledge on everything rail related. He has his own agendas, which probably mainly stem from not being involved personally. Ranting on about it, after two days is frankly daft, as is blaming the Minister for the train being late!

Anyhow, from a loading perspective I would suggest that one needs to look at the performance over an extended period of time, and two days does not exactly figure as an extended period. Let's wait and see.

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

Lxflyer, I flatly disagree with you. I think that the running of direct trains to and from Dublin is key to the future of this entire route. Without this, the critical mass of business on the line simply isn't going to appear.

People need to know that they can hop on a train in Kingsbridge and hop off in Roscrea, Nenagh or somewhere close to UL. Otherwise, car or bus will continue to make more sense to most people.

Well where do they get the €3m from to do that for trains from Dublin? Are you seriously suggesting spending that amount of money now, and, if it doesn't work, then saying, "ah well".

We don't that kind of money to spend! It is not a small matter.

Better in my mind to see how the thing performs in the medium term with minimal investment and then make decisions such as that.

pigtown

dowlingm wrote: »

IE Nenagh "Commuter"
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0812 dep Castleconnell 0820 arr Limerick 0840
BE 323 (ex Birr)
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0800 - runs express - arr Limerick 0835

Sheer madness. One arm of CIE running head to head with another. The bus which in theory should be more flexible, make more stops bypasses Plassey/Castletroy. What should be is that the northern part of the 323 should deliver Birr/Borrisokane people to meet the train at Nenagh and IE commit to lifting service speed to get into Limerick at 0825-30 to compensate for Limerick Station being a little remote from the city centre.

EDIT: Incidentally, does anyone know why the Nenagh train holds until 0745 - is it an issue with a slot from Killonan-Limerick?

Does the bus use the motorway? If yes then how can it only be 5 minutes faster than the painfully slow train? If no then why not?

Judgement Day

Boulevardier wrote: »

Lxflyer, I flatly disagree with you. I think that the running of direct trains to and from Dublin is key to the future of this entire route. Without this, the critical mass of business on the line simply isn't going to appear.

People need to know that they can hop on a train in Kingsbridge and hop off in Roscrea, Nenagh or somewhere close to UL. Otherwise, car or bus will continue to make more sense to most people.

I agree with your earlier point - closing or moving north of Ballybrophy station - and the only future that the Nenagh branch has is as part of a direct Dublin/Limerick route. This will not happen with the tinkering about that is now underway to placate Alan Kelly. I wonder if the great man uses the train himself - I suspect not.

dowlingm

ah but lxflyer the Alan Kelly express to Croke Park should have given them some idea of the real world performance, and added some contingency. They could have also used some test mileage of the new 22s to simulate and then pulled them off the road if they were falling behind. When the changes you rightly suggest were made that conservative schedule could then have been accelerated but with the time ex Ballybrophy staying as is. As it stands the wheeze of matching IE's wish for an additional suburban to AK's wish for a direct service is now playing havoc with the suburban schedule - IE & AK have overpromised and underdelivered and it's not just affecting Nenaghites but the bread and butter suburban network.

The solution they found to Ballybrophy's limitations (direct NB and return the train via Limerick Junction and use shuttles on the way back) was quite good considering the issues involved but the 1605 and 1705 trains out of Limerick are just rubbish - I would love to hear the reasoning as to why the 9-5 market in Limerick was so cavalierly abandoned and even those who get off early can't access Roscrea except on a Saturday. The situation MAY improve if Nenagh-Ballybrophy is CWRed and line speed pushed to 50 or better still 60 (much bustitution though!) which would allow the train crossing points to be shifted about but by then the beancounters will have assembled their case and Varadkar will be brought in to be the heavy gang who took poor Alan's train away despite how hard he fought etc etc.

dowlingm

Arrivals in Limerick (per timetable)

Thurles-Limerick Junction-Limerick 0829
Galway-Limerick 0835
Nenagh-Limerick 0840

I'm not conversant with Limerick approach capacity, perhaps someone could weigh in on the feasibility of spacing these closer. The Thurles-Limerick timing seems reasonable so I don't see scope for much to shave there. But optimising the inbound for 9-5 workers won't do much unless there's a train at the other side.

pigtown

Would an increase in direct Limerick- Dublin trains be detrimental to the viability of the Limerick-Lim/Junction route? By trying to boost traffic on one line is there a possibility of IÉ harming what could possibly be described as a competing line?

pigtown

Boulevardier wrote: »

A stop as near as possible to Castletroy is a very good idea. I worked in the NIHE (now UL) some years ago, and there is no doubt that academics and visitors to the college tend to shun buses but are inveterate train users. They would leap at the chance to get to/from UL without having to go through central Limerick and then use taxis as at present.

That's very true. Most people would jump at the chance to be able to avoid the ridiculous traffic and parking situation in UL. The existing bus services are too unreliable and also don't stop at alot of the major areas in Castletroy.

dowlingm

Late again this morning. Quick action will be needed as this is screwing over the Waterford-Carlow trains which are lifting a lot more than is coming out of Ballybrophy. The problem is apparently is that the schedule assumes the branch train will reach the 4 track section and enter the slow track and the Waterford will pull up behind into the fast, but instead is being stuck behind because the branch train has not departed the section ahead into the slow track.

kc56

dowlingm wrote: »

Late again this morning. Quick action will be needed as this is screwing over the Waterford-Carlow trains which are lifting a lot more than is coming out of Ballybrophy. The problem is apparently is that the schedule assumes the branch train will reach the 4 track section and enter the slow track and the Waterford will pull up behind into the fast, but instead is being stuck behind because the branch train has not departed the section ahead into the slow track.

The Waterford train is NOT affected at present as the Nenagh train is running late and runing after the Waterford. It is however delaying the 0725 ex Portlaoise and possible the 0515 ex Westport and maybe others.

The only time this week that the 0600 from Waterford was late was when the 0530 from Limerick, via Thurles, was 30 mins late.

The Nenagh train needs to be on-time to get to Cherryville before the Waterford train.

dowlingm

thanks kc56 my mistake.

I think the IE braintrust will have to work fast to fix this. If uplift is not being seen at Castleconnell, Birdhill and Cloughjordan then those stops should be skipped which would save maybe 3-4 minutes (since the train would have to slow through Birdhill for the token presumably). Castleconnell to Dublin commuting is always going to be hampered by the later, quicker Junction services and 90% of its catchment being between it and Colbert.

It's starting to look like the best options are to revert to a 2800 set shuttle which gets to Ballybrophy to meet the 0505 Cork at 0653 or to follow it up the mainline with a transfer at Portlaoise. The Limerick 22K set would simply be part of the Dublin suburban roster which is probably when IE intended before AK asked them nicely for a choochoo from Nenagh.

dowlingm

My eyes nearly rolled back in my head when I saw the Letters to the Editor in Nenagh Guardian (page NG11) - some of the letter was reproduced on RUI board.
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/NenaghGuardian/

It became a bit clearer when a google search revealed a person of the same name and town to be a member of Nenagh Rail Partnership.

pigtown

dowlingm wrote: »

My eyes nearly rolled back in my head when I saw the Letters to the Editor in Nenagh Guardian (page NG11) - some of the letter was reproduced on RUI board.
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/NenaghGuardian/

It became a bit clearer when a google search revealed a person of the same name and town to be a member of Nenagh Rail Partnership.

That's a bit odd considering campaigning by the Rail Partnership was the reason a half decent commuter service was introduced on the line and the new timetable does away with it. Ridiculous letter all the same.

dowlingm

IE have been forced to take action on the Nenagh service. According to RUI boards as of today departure ex Limerick has been advanced to 0510 and departure from Ballybrophy goes back seven minutes. This now forms the 0725 Portlaoise-Heuston which presumably moves back to 0716 to cover the gap. I am totally taking credit for this :P No mention on IE twitter or timetable page on the website - plus ca change.

According to the IE basketcase realtime feed it looks like it may have been a few minutes late anyway but I can't be sure because some of it is manual entry I understand and the Killonan-Portlaoise section has no timing info being under manual staff.

http://api.irishrail.ie/realtime/realtime.asmx/getTrainMovementsXML?TrainId=a409&TrainDate=15%20mar%202012

According to one poster there who I'm not sure if they post here, much of the issue is speed restrictions Killonan-Birdhill but also that speed is heavily restricted (i.e. walking pace) from the platform to Ennis Junction.

LXFlyer

As I said in post #94 above this review and change was inevitable (and would be done in the normal course of events) and is a common sense solution.

I imagine the problems are indeed stemming from TSRs on the branch.

kc56

dowlingm wrote: »

According to the IE basketcase realtime feed it looks like it may have been a few minutes late anyway but I can't be sure because some of it is manual entry I understand and the Killonan-Portlaoise section has no timing info being under manual staff.

http://api.irishrail.ie/realtime/realtime.asmx/getTrainMovementsXML?TrainId=a409&TrainDate=15%20mar%202012

According to one poster there who I'm not sure if they post here, much of the issue is speed restrictions Killonan-Birdhill but also that speed is heavily restricted (i.e. walking pace) from the platform to Ennis Junction.

Actually, timings should be OK once it's on the mainline from Ballybrophy to Heuston. It was about 4 mins late all the way from Portlaoise.

The 'basketcase realtime' works well and is usually quite accurate on the Kildare-Heuston section but it does have its moments like losing trains. Its weakness is not knowing which train will pass thorugh Cheeryville first if the 0600 from Waterford is a few minutes late.

Losty Dublin

The situation with the branch and it's TSR's is down to the fact that it has not been completely tamped, packed and tested after the programme of relaying and reballasting. This is due to the fact that PW budgets have been cut and priorities are currently directed at ongoing work on the Cork line and routine work as needed. Until either exchequer funding is released or priorities are changed to allow the work to be done, the speeds will be low into the future.

dowlingm

I guess we can expect more of the same then from the works going on in Clonmel at present - lots of track and ballast but the tamping crews busy elsewhere and thus no reinstatement of 50mph timetables.

dowlingm

Limerick-Nenagh-Dublin moved back to 0505 ex Limerick this morning but it looks like the train didn't get away until 0518.

Jamie2k9

IR tweeted today:

we are examining the timings of this train, to ensure punctuality is restored

dowlingm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/just-four-people-on-board-new-train-route-costing-250000-a-year-to-run-3140007.html

The documents show how little information was provided, in written format, to justify spending €1,000 a day on new services.

They reveal how:

• The NTA, which has the ultimate say on approving new rail routes, sought no details of how much the extra services would cost.
• Permission to run the extra trains was granted just 90 minutes after the NTA was formally approached by Iarnrod Eireann about the matter on February 17.
• Background discussions leading up to the decision were carried out on the phone, with no written record kept.
• Two high-level reports previously recommended that the Ballybrophy line, which serves north Tipperary, be closed as too few people used it, it was beside a motorway and journey times were too slow.

Official figures provided by the rail company show an average of just 10 people a day use the new 5.05am Limerick to Dublin service, which serves Castleconnell, Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan and Roscrea. The train has 190 seats.

Judgement Day

Amazing, provide a extra services that nobody uses and prove the line's a dead duck - Todd Andrews strikes from beyond the grave! Sure beats painting stations and relaying yards as a way of racking up losses. If IE are incapable of running the railways properly they should be taken out of their control. The No Trains Authority will love this.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

Amazing, provide a extra services that nobody uses and prove the line's a dead duck - Todd Andrews strikes from beyond the grave! Sure beats painting stations and relaying yards as a way of racking up losses. If IE are incapable of running the railways properly they should be taken out of their control. The No Trains Authority will love this.

How do you propose they get people who don't want to use a slow train to use the train? no matter what speed the train achieves people will still not use it because railways are just not flexible enough and don't go where the people want to go! Buses will drop you into town centers while trains leave you out on the periphery.

close this and a few other lines and Irish Rail might be saved!

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

How do you propose they get people who don't want to use a slow train to use the train? no matter what speed the train achieves people will still not use it because railways are just not flexible enough and don't go where the people want to go! Buses will drop you into town centers while trains leave you out on the periphery.

close this and a few other lines and Irish Rail might be saved!

Much as it pains me to condone line closures, I think Foggy is right.
The people of North Tipp dont want this line, so concentrate the resources on an extra, fast, direct Limerick to Dublin train that has a hope of breaking even.
The same goes for any other line where it can be shown that buses can do the same job quicker and cheaper.

mikemac1

I wouldn't say we don't want it.
No area is going to turn down services from a minister

It's fast to Dublin, price is good and this early morning service is a clever idea.
Not so fast to Limerick

But it's just the bus service is even better
JJ Kavanaghs and Bus Éireann run all day every day

I doubt all the locals even know about the improved train service.

Now this would be different if we didn't have the M7 beside us. The train would be popular then.
The likes of Thurles have an awful bus service, it's the train for them

But the Nenagh line just can't compete with the great bus service, that's what people are used to

pigtown

I could never figure out why they cancelled the Nenagh-Limerick commuter service so that they could offer a Nenagh-Dublin commuter service. Surely more people would be working in the nearest city than in Dublin.

foggy_lad

I have always thought it strange how some places which have railway stations are left with very little or even no bus services. Thurles, Portarlington, Monasterevin, etc are left completely alone and out in the cold by bus eireann. Are bus eireann not interested in the competition or is it that they are told not to take railway customers in certain areas?

Judgement Day

foggy_lad wrote: »

How do you propose they get people who don't want to use a slow train to use the train? no matter what speed the train achieves people will still not use it because railways are just not flexible enough and don't go where the people want to go! Buses will drop you into town centers while trains leave you out on the periphery.

close this and a few other lines and Irish Rail might be saved!

foggy - we have been hearing the same old mantra for decades 'close down a few more lines' and the rest will survive'. The lifting train will coming through Islandbridge Junction and you, your fellow travellers in the IRRS and other anti-railway charlatans will still be trotting out the same old claptrap. If CIE/IE can't operate what's left of the railways they should be taken out of the equation.