Extra services for Nenagh branch!

Hungerford

Tipp FM's twitter is claiming that far from the Nenagh branch facing closure, services will be expanded on the line. See below for details. I won't comment further as my response would probably feature several of the banned phrases on this sub-forum.

***NEWS***
Proposals for extra train services in North Tipperary...
A proposal is to be sent from Iarnrod Eireann to the National Transport Authority to provide an early morning service from Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh and Roscrea.

Fine Gael Deputy Noel Coonan says these proposals if implemented would see an early morning service stop in Roscrea at 6,38 and arrive in Dublin at 8.20, without having to change trains.

A number of additional services on the Nenagh/Roscrea line, would see one extra service in the morning and two in the evening, which will improve the number of services from four to seven.

The route changes need the approval of the National Transport Authority.
Poilin Ni Riain

Interesting, they'll have to stress and tamp the track properly now.

mikemac1

Junior Minister for Transport Alan Kelly is a local, Portroe just nearby

Pays to have a minister in the area

Train to Dublin from Nenagh is still faster then the bus, twenty five euro return is decent

Judgement Day

Two chances of improvements to Nenagh branch services - none and **** all. :rolleyes:

corktina

Interesting.A vote-catching exercise or a last-gasp attempt to rescue the line?

I imagine they'll put on the trains, noone will use them and the line will be shut for good.

dowlingm

here's the thread:
http://www.facebook.com/TippFMRadio/posts/385299994818956

I added a helpful comment. In case the TippFMers don't like it, the substance of it is embedded herewith:

Dear Alan Kelly and Noel Coonan - Dick Fearn has a message for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

Partizan

How about Brendan Howlin doing the same for the South Wexford line?

Judgement Day

Partizan wrote: »

How about Brendan Howlin doing the same for the South Wexford line?

Why bother, it's just a stunt and the Nenagh will still close because as Varadkhar will state 'it's an operational matter for IE' .

Niles

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why bother, it's just a stunt and the Nenagh will still close because as Varadkhar will state 'it's an operational matter for IE' .

"That would be an ecumenical operational matter"

dowlingm

Rumour control on RUI forum sez that as part of the proposal some other services will get moved around.

Here's the departures from Limerick-Nenagh now:
0625, 0730, 1645, 1745
Here's the rumoured new arrangement
0515, 0625, 1605, 1705

I think IE just ended any pretence that they were interested in Nenagh commuters!

Poxyshamrock

How about the Nenagh to Limerick times?

dowlingm

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How about the Nenagh to Limerick times?

Presumably the 0625 would still be the turnback service although I think that should be the 0515 and turn it back at Roscrea to create a Roscrea commuter. What it looks like though is that the number of southbounds would drop to three since the 0515 would escape the branch and come back via the Junction.

Dublin Spotter

irish Rail have not applied to have a timetable change so it wont happen for a whle and an 08.20 arrival in Heuston can't happen as there is a service from Waterford at that time. There is a gap between 08.20-08.33 only.

kc56

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

irish Rail have not applied to have a timetable change so it wont happen for a whle and an 08.20 arrival in Heuston can't happen as there is a service from Waterford at that time. There is a gap between 08.20-08.33 only.

There might be a 13 min gap at Heuston, but there is only a 5 min gap at Kildare between the Waterford (0741) and Portlaoise (0746) trains. Even at that, the Westport, Kildare at 0755, often arrives inside this 13 min gap. So there's not much room for another train without adjusting timings of other services.

dowlingm

kc56 wrote: »

There might be a 13 min gap at Heuston, but there is only a 5 min gap at Kildare between the Waterford (0741) and Portlaoise (0746) trains. Even at that, the Westport, Kildare at 0755, often arrives inside this 13 min gap. So there's not much room for another train without adjusting timings of other services.

Unless the Limerick-Ballyb-Heuston service joined the Westport and came in in tandem?

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

Unless the Limerick-Ballyb-Heuston service joined the Westport and came in in tandem?

That would require a 22000 set to work from Limerick in order for it to join the Westport train. There should be some available but it will require one to be dedicated for this line along with it's slotting into other trains ex Dublin to make use of it for the rest of the day. If this set is going to then join onto another incoming train, it is spoiling the line for either of the 3 mentioned services as it waits, which means chaos if one is help up by even a minute. The Limerick driver also has to to either travel back into Heuston and then back idle on a Dublin-Cork-Limerick service or for a Cork train to stop and pick him up, he again traveling home idle.

It's easier for the branch train to improve it's links with ex Cork services IMO.

dowlingm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That would require a 22000 set to work from Limerick in order for it to join the Westport train.

Well it seems likely that it would be a 22000 irrespective if this is actually going to happen. Sending a 70mph set up the mainline at peak would be madness.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If this set is going to then join onto another incoming train, it is spoiling the line for either of the 3 mentioned services as it waits, which means chaos if one is help up by even a minute.

Which probably makes the Portlaoise one the one to join with, since the Westport and Waterford services join the mainline later.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's easier for the branch train to improve it's links with ex Cork services IMO.

Clearly. Given the timetable outlined by the TD (dep Roscrea 0638), the 0505 ex Cork would have passed Ballybrophy about 9 minutes earlier, so if the service left Limerick at 0505 a connection should be possible. However, the attraction of this service would presumably be that Nenagh-ites would have their pick of seating, not merely the leavings of the dreaded Cork-ites.

kc56

Which probably makes the Portlaoise one the one to join with, since the Westport and Waterford services join the mainline later.

All these are 6-car trains. The Portlaoise stops at nearly every station, except Clondakin and Cherry Orchard, and not all of them (Adamstown, Hazelhatch, Sallins?) can take a 9 car so that's not on.

The Westport is a 3 car but is the least timely of these so joining it, even though it would get a much needed increase in capacity, is not really practical.

According to RUI, no application has been made by IE so this all speculation.

dowlingm

kc56 wrote: »

All these are 6-car trains. The Portlaoise stops at nearly every station, except Clondakin and Cherry Orchard, and not all of them (Adamstown, Hazelhatch, Sallins?) can take a 9 car so that's not on

Yeah, I thought as much. Still, some scheme must have been cooked up to make it work because otherwise this TD and Alan Kelly are going to look like right clowns.

dowlingm

Announced:
http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4483&p=116&n=237
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/Dublin_Limerick_via_Nenagh_from_5th_March2.pdf

Some red faces at RUI I'd imagine - someone at NTA seems to have led them astray.

Mark Gleeson wrote:

Irish Rail have made no submission to the NTA and I have that in writing so who knows where all this is coming from

mydiscworld

Note the 5.15 train from Limerick takes a whopping 3hrs 10 to get into Heustion by 8.25.

highlydebased

Happy to see a lunchtime Limk-Dublin direct train as a result

dowlingm

The 1705 from Limerick can't pick up/drop off at Roscrea because there is only one usable platform - the footbridge no longer exists and the second platform has no access. This means the last northbound to Roscrea is 1605 (currently 1645) unless you want to take the 1705 to Ballybrophy and wait for it to head back :rolleyes: The 1605 is heading back from Ballyb at that point which is what forces the 1705 to leave earlier than it might and which forces it into the inaccessible platform at Roscrea. An accessible footbridge would solve if you have a half-million quid for elevators and so on - the area around the station does not appear to give a good option for a separate entrance.

pigtown

So the last Limerick- Nenagh train departs at 17.05. Looks like they can wave goodbye to their already small number of commuters.

On a seperate note, did anyone see the Mid-Western Area Strategic Plan? http://www.mwra.ie/Regional_Planning/documents/MWASP_DRAFTReport_09012012.pdf
One of its suggestions is to give free travel on the Limerick-Ballybrophy line for six months as a promotion. Is this a good idea?

Judgement Day

What a dog's dinner of a service. I suppose marketing the line to users in its catchment area would be completely out of the question? The only thing to come from this 'improvement' will be to rack up losses and make a more convincing case for closure.

dowlingm

As far as I can see, there is nowhere between Killonan and Ballybrophy that two trains can pass AND open their doors at once because the 2nd platforms at Birdhill and Roscrea are inaccessible and Nenagh isn't a full block post. Because of this Roscrea (population >6,300 in the 2011 census in the urban area) has its last train from Limerick and to Dublin departing forty minutes earlier. I suppose when you have mini-CTC like the Waterford line you can have loops in the middle of nowhere (Ballyhale) and maximise a single platform setup.

flyingsnail

Or if the existing signalling system was to be retained alter the layout so the loop is just outside the station and maintain a single line and platform through the station. Considering the likely costs of rebuilding the platforms and making them wheelchair accessible this may even be a cheaper option.

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

What a dog's dinner of a service. I suppose marketing the line to users in its catchment area would be completely out of the question?

The only user that IE are concerned about is the Minister for Public Transport, who obviously wants some local bragging rights rather than taking steps (god knows what though) to ensure the line's long-term viability.

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

The only user that IE are concerned about is the Minister for Public Transport, who obviously wants some local bragging rights rather than taking steps (god knows what though) to ensure the line's long-term viability.

This has as much as been confirmed.

dowlingm

IE make such a big deal about consultation when the huge Heuston and Connolly timetable changes are made - a small change in the scheme of things like this one is one where public engagement could really make a difference not least in picking up errors, omissions and missed opportunities.

For example - it was picked up on the equivalent RUI thread by doherty_jack (who seems to be connected to the local rail partnership) that Roscrea (not served by the 1705 Limerick-Ballybrophy) could be served on Saturdays because the crossing train which occupies the platform is Mon-Fri only. The laugh is that the train probably will stop on Saturdays and the doors will open but IE will just keep it on the downlow because people might use it and then where would we be.

dhaslam

If the line costs €20,000 per day to run, as per the Irish Independent today, and there are only 73 passengers and there is a good road running paralell it would be more efficient and cheaper to use individual taxis.

munchkin_utd

dhaslam wrote: »

If the line costs €20,000 per day to run, as per the Irish Independent today, and there are only 73 passengers and there is a good road running paralell it would be more efficient and cheaper to use individual taxis.

itd even be cheaper to give the 73 people a brand new car EACH TO KEEP and you'd be saving money after less than 3 months.

dowlingm

The 20,000/day figure is disputed - certainly that that figure can't be ascribed to the EXTRA trains, whatever about the entire cost of the line.

Thread on that article is here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056561143

tangowhiskey

dowlingm wrote: »

For example - it was picked up on the equivalent RUI thread by doherty_jack (who seems to be connected to the local rail partnership) that Roscrea (not served by the 1705 Limerick-Ballybrophy) could be served on Saturdays because the crossing train which occupies the platform is Mon-Fri only. The laugh is that the train probably will stop on Saturdays and the doors will open but IE will just keep it on the downlow because people might use it and then where would we be.

Timetable now up stating that it will serve Roscrea on Saturdays only.
Link: http://www.irishrail.ie/media/DublinLimerickviaNenagh121.pdf

dowlingm

any word on day 1 loads for the direct service?

Hungerford

IRN are reporting that 19 people braved the leg between Limerick and Ballybrophy on the first service. The train filled up with commuters once it hit the mainline.

Judgement Day

I suppose the marketing locally is up to the usual high standards of Iarnrod Eireann? :rolleyes:

Boulevardier

I have not read all of this thread, but in case it hasnt been said already I will say it: The key to this whole line is the track alignment at Ballybrophy.

Last time I used the route, the train leaving Ballybrophy had to go in the opposite direction to the train from Dublin. That means that a train to or from Dublin via Nenagh has to reverse at Ballybrophy, and if it is loco-hauled then the loco must change ends. It makes the service seem primitive and unprofessional to any modern rail traveller.

This could be remedied by some modest track realignment work. If they are going to invest in the service then this has to be done. Otherwise, don't bother developing the service at all.

Judgement Day

Boulevardier wrote: »

I have not read all of this thread, but in case it hasnt been said already I will say it: The key to this whole line is the track alignment at Ballybrophy.

Last time I used the route, the train leaving Ballybrophy had to go in the opposite direction to the train from Dublin. That means that a train to or from Dublin via Nenagh has to reverse at Ballybrophy, and if it is loco-hauled then the loco must change ends. It makes the service seem primitive and unprofessional to any modern rail traveller.

This could be remedied by some modest track realignment work. If they are going to invest in the service then this has to be done. Otherwise, don't bother developing the service at all.

I have been banging on about a direct curve, facing the Dublin direction, at Ballybrophy for decades. I have written to numerous politicians, ministers etc. but you might as well talk to the wall. Decisions such as whether or not direct curves etc are installed should not be an 'operational matter' for CIE/IE - they are far too important to be left to people who muddle along from day to day, year to year and decade to decade.

munchkin_utd

Boulevardier wrote: »

I have not read all of this thread, but in case it hasnt been said already I will say it: The key to this whole line is the track alignment at Ballybrophy.

Last time I used the route, the train leaving Ballybrophy had to go in the opposite direction to the train from Dublin. That means that a train to or from Dublin via Nenagh has to reverse at Ballybrophy, and if it is loco-hauled then the loco must change ends. It makes the service seem primitive and unprofessional to any modern rail traveller.

This could be remedied by some modest track realignment work. If they are going to invest in the service then this has to be done. Otherwise, don't bother developing the service at all.

yes
but there are less and less loco hauled trains. Only Dublin to Cork and Dublin left and even those have driver cabs that negate the need to switch the loco.

if a train is calling to a station anyhow then the driver walking the 50m from one end of the train to the other to change direction isnt a massive logistical issue.

LXFlyer

The switch of ends for the train from Limerick to Dublin adds 2 minutes to the stop at Ballybrophy - hardly material in the greater scheme of things. This service will never be loco hauled.

The real problem is going in the opposite direction - a direct service from Dublin to Limerick via Nenagh is frankly a non-starter given the track layout as no less than 3 reversals would have to take place. Hence the two evening trains are connecting services.

Boulevardier

lxflyer, no reversals at all would have to take place if the track towards Roscrea were aligned with the mainline. The train from Dublin could then do a gentle U around towards Roscrea, and the up-train could do the equivalent.

LXFlyer

I'm aware of that - just making the point that it doesn't add as much time as you might imagine going towards Dublin.

munchkin_utd

lxflyer wrote: »

The switch of ends for the train from Limerick to Dublin adds 2 minutes to the stop at Ballybrophy - hardly material in the greater scheme of things. This service will never be loco hauled.

The real problem is going in the opposite direction - a direct service from Dublin to Limerick via Nenagh is frankly a non-starter given the track layout as no less than 3 reversals would have to take place. Hence the two evening trains are connecting services.

slight tangent
is there any website with schematics of junction layouts in Ireland? (like that in Ballybrophy or Limerick junction)

maybe something along the lines of this for the tram lines in Munich:
http://www.tram-muenchen.de/netzplaene/images/gleisplan-tram-m.pdf

Jehuty42

A single facing crossover is all that is needed (+updating the signalling system to take account of it, maybe just a single shunt signal or a route indicator feather) to eliminate the three shunting movements.

Having said that, I wouldn't build it, there's no point giving the unviabilityof the line, I'd have closed everything but the Cork, Limerick and Galway mainlines by now. I'm just surprised that that one single bit of track has never been added in the decades it could have been or when the line was more important.

Hungerford

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I'm just surprised that that one single bit of track has never been added in the decades it could have been or when the line was more important.

The piece of track was there once but Irish Rail removed it because it was apparently unsafe to have a crossover there. I could comment on that statement but I won't.

LXFlyer

munchkin_utd wrote: »

slight tangent
is there any website with schematics of junction layouts in Ireland? (like that in Ballybrophy or Limerick junction)

maybe something along the lines of this for the tram lines in Munich:
http://www.tram-muenchen.de/netzplaene/images/gleisplan-tram-m.pdf

Not that I know of - there is the Quail map diagram book, but that's a bit out of date now.

Otherwise have a look at Google maps and use the satellite image.

Boulevardier

If small-scale work on the line is enough to eliminate reversing or shunting, and if a decision has been made to improve services, it seems to me a no-brainer to do those works. If the line is not worth that degree of effort, then yes, shut it down.

Jehuty42

Boulevardier wrote: »

If small-scale work on the line is enough to eliminate reversing or shunting, and if a decision has been made to improve services, it seems to me a no-brainer to do those works. If the line is not worth that degree of effort, then yes, shut it down.

Well the problem is would necessitate closing the Cork line at Ballybrophy in both directions for a weekend I'd say, to get it all done. Then there would have to be a speed restriction for a few weeks afterwards as the work beds in. The expense of that is the problem, in terms of lost revenue and bustitutions.

And frankly, the decision was made by Alan Kelly TD. IE has no interest in enabling him any more than they have to.

Losty Dublin

Hungerford wrote: »

The piece of track was there once but Irish Rail removed it because it was apparently unsafe to have a crossover there. I could comment on that statement but I won't.

Maybe you should comment on it or at least show us a source for your claim.

LXFlyer

To install a facing crossover along with all the associated signalling and interlocking you are looking at a cost of roughly EUR 3M. That is hardly small scale.

Realistically that is not going to happen, unless this initiative produces results, and things improve economically. The trains have been provided at a minimal marginal cost - I think we need to see how the marginal revenue performs before making capital investment decisions of that magnitude.