Bare bones cider question

Khannie

Three months! That's some patience you have. I'll give the first brew another 3 weeks in the bottle. Bottling commencing soon.

Sky King

I've read that it can take a bit of time to reach optimum drinkability

I brewed it now for Summer drinking anyway, though it's a bit strong to be a lawnmower beverage, a 1L bottle of that would have me wrecked.

Khannie

Well, I'll see what it's like after 3 weeks. If it's filthy I'll leave it a bit longer. I primed it with apple juice (~45ml per 500ml bottle). If it's filthy I'll leave it a bit longer. I added 6 crushed splenda per 500ml bottle too. I'd say that'll be quite sweet but I thought it better to overdo it a little rather than underdo it on my first batch.

Sky King

Khannie wrote: »

I added 6 crushed splenda per 500ml bottle too.

:eek:

SIX of the splenda tabs per 500ml!?

I used one per 500ml! It's a little dry but quite drinkable.... I like it on the dry side.

Let me know how that goes won;t you?

Khannie

Yeah, I think 6 may have been overkill with hindsight. I've a bit of experience with sweeteners (I use the crushed lidl ones in protein shakes), but not splenda and I tried one in my coffee this morning - they're quite sweet. Definitely more sweet than the lidl sweeteners per tablet. Ah sure it wont be the end of the world. I'd say one per 500ml is definitely going to be very dry though.


In other news I kicked off my apple and pear finlandia brew last night. I was totally anal about sterilisation. Spent ages getting everything ready. I had two very minor speed bumps:

I put in 2KG of dextrose for what I thought was going to be a 31-32L brew. It turns out the 33L drum wont hold 33L with the lid on, so I emptied some out into the 5L water container that I'd been using for the apple juice brew (which I had cleaned and sterilised). Total liquid is probably 34L now (30 + 4).

The 2KG of dextrose gave it a very high starting SG (1.050). I'm a little wary of that. It was higher than I expected. The table in the instructions (about the only thing I could make out) said 800g would make 6%. Since I was using two brews I initially boiled up 1.6KG, but it was bubbling away and I figured what the hell was I going to do with the extra 400g and tossed it in. Ah sure we'll see how it turns out.

On the plus side the smell from the finlandia syrup was lovely. Nom nom nom.

No sign of any movement from it. It's under the stairs at 16 degrees.

Khannie

Oh yeah, forgot to mention; Lidl are doing their cloudy apple juice on special at the moment: €1 per litre. I bought 18 given how (relatively) well the first brew with it went. It's good until the middle of next year so I'm sticking it in the shed for now.

Khannie

Well....I ran out of "supermarket" drink after 2 last night when 3 would have been just right with my popcorn and The Walking Dead, so I chanced one of my recently bottled ciders. It bubbled over when I opened the bottle, but the liquid inside wasn't really fizzy (I expect that'll take another few weeks) but it was delicious. Really delighted at how well it turned out.

It was sweet, but not overly so (not as sweet as Bulmers for example). It still tasted of apple juice. I'd imagine that's because it's what I primed with, but it hasn't all fermented yet.

Khannie

I should rename this thread "Khannie's booze blog". :pac:

Bottled the apple, cinnamon and honey cider and the very small amount (about 400ml in the end) I made from juiced apples last night. There was a funky taste from the honey cider and almost no hint of the cinnamon. I'll definitely use more next time. Not the best taste from it now but I have high hopes for it. Primed the honey one with honey. Added some splenda and some lidl sweeteners. Less than the last time. Batch primed this time too which was good / definitely less effort overall.

Also tested the SG of the apple and pear Finlandia stuff. It's still quite high. Definitely going to need another full two weeks to fully ferment. I have it in two containers in different rooms. One under the stairs (the large bucket with about 30L in it) and one of the 5L lidl water holders with about 4L in it in the sitting room. Tested from the smaller one, though I expect it to be further along. The bucket under the stairs is awkward for me to get to but it looks like it's in the 14-16C range more or less constantly.

The missus is convinced though. Ordered stuff last night to do some pinto grigio for her.

Khannie

Started another "bare bones" brew last night. I expect it to be flippin' spectacular though.

Inspired by one of the fermenting buckets thread and the foraged ingredients thread I got a food safe catering bucket from a chef friend (approximately 10L) and put 8L of cloudy apple juice and 1KG of blended raspberries in it. The smell was absolutely *amazing*.

I used two bags of frozen raspberries from lidl (€3.50 for 500g if memory serves...I had them in the freezer anyway). Defrosted them a bit, then blended them with a litre of apple juice. I tried to strain out the pips through a seive, but this proved a giant pain in the face so I'll just get rid of them at bottling time. The mixed juice was a blood red colour and as I said, smelled really good.

The raspberries bring the total cost up quite a bit but I expect them to be worth it. I hope this turns out well.

Sky King

That sounds deadly.

Khannie

Well....I'll find out in two weeks. Bottled it last night. Got a heap of bottles from one of the local pubs. I got 16 bottles out of the apple and raspberry. Really looking forward to it.

If it works out well I'm going to try a mixed berries version too.

sharingan

Khannie wrote: »

Inspired by one of the fermenting buckets thread and the foraged ingredients thread I got a food safe catering bucket from a chef friend (approximately 10L) and put 8L of cloudy apple juice and 1KG of blended raspberries in it. The smell was absolutely *amazing*.

I used two bags of frozen raspberries from lidl (€3.50 for 500g if memory serves...I had them in the freezer anyway). Defrosted them a bit, then blended them with a litre of apple juice. I tried to strain out the pips through a seive, but this proved a giant pain in the face so I'll just get rid of them at bottling time. The mixed juice was a blood red colour and as I said, smelled really good.

The raspberries bring the total cost up quite a bit but I expect them to be worth it. I hope this turns out well.

Getting late into Khannies cider blog but I have to comment on this:

Mixing fruit into your ferments is amazing, and that is a serious amount of raspberry. Turbo Ciders aren't really my cup of joe - but they respond well to all kinds of blending, and fruit additions are a great one.

However, if you are adding fruit in, it can have some side effects - like really aggressive fermentation, and messy extraction. You can solve the first problem, with using buckets rather than carboys/airlocks. The second problem can be solved by putting the blended fruit mix in a sterilised muslin bag. All of your juice can be fermented, and solids removed.

The sky is the limit with the kinds of fruit you can use, and for cider I would recommend adding some apple peel (wild crab apples are usually recommended).

Khannie

Thanks for that. Yeah, there was a thick layer of horrible stuff on top of the raspberry and apple and it was finished fermentation within 9 days (and possibly sooner, I just hadn't tested it) while a batch of apple that I had kicked off the same day wasn't finished until 3 days after it. I scooped the scum off (it was quite thick stuff) with a spoon / ladle initially, then got a sieve to get the rest (all sterilised). There was also quite a bit of horrible stuff on the bottom, but the siphon I used when transferring for priming has a sediment trap so that was actually grand.

It was a lot of raspberries alright, but they're comparatively cheap when frozen and since they were being blended anyway I didn't think that it was worth paying (or waiting) for fresh.

So riddle me this about "turbo" cider: What is "turbo" about it compared to brewing from freshly pressed apple juice? I was using the cloudy apple juice stuff from lidl which is just freshly pressed (and pasteurised) apple juice + some vitamin C for antioxidant. I figured it was reasonably likely to taste reasonably like the real deal which I'm planning on making in the autumn and take approximately as long to ferment. Am I wrong?

Mr Benevolent

Khannie wrote: »

So riddle me this about "turbo" cider: What is "turbo" about it compared to brewing from freshly pressed apple juice? I was using the cloudy apple juice stuff from lidl which is just freshly pressed (and pasteurised) apple juice + some vitamin C for antioxidant. I figured it was reasonably likely to taste reasonably like the real deal which I'm planning on making in the autumn and take approximately as long to ferment. Am I wrong?

There's nothing turbo about it in terms of speed. I imagine 'turbo' used to refer to the high alcohol content. I've made turbo cider before and it was easily 2-4 months in the bottle before it was mature enough to really enjoy. 9% though.

Khannie

9%! That's high alright. I've generally been aiming for the 6.5% mark. I may go a bit higher next time and see how it works out.

sharingan

Khannie wrote: »

It was a lot of raspberries alright, but they're comparatively cheap when frozen and since they were being blended anyway I didn't think that it was worth paying (or waiting) for fresh.

Fruit that looks like spoiling normally gets added to whatever ferment I have about to start. Very little waste in my place ;-p

Khannie wrote: »

So riddle me this about "turbo" cider: What is "turbo" about it compared to brewing from freshly pressed apple juice? I was using the cloudy apple juice stuff from lidl which is just freshly pressed (and pasteurised) apple juice + some vitamin C for antioxidant. I figured it was reasonably likely to taste reasonably like the real deal which I'm planning on making in the autumn and take approximately as long to ferment. Am I wrong?

Turbo Cider == Hard Cider made from store bought fruit juice.

Regular Cider == You start with apples.

The Turbo bit means that the process is accelerated. A good turbo cider can be very drinkable at 6 weeks, start to finish.

Khannie

Well, time for a bit of an update I suppose. The following batches have completed and have finished their minimum bottle aging time:

Apple and Pear from kit. (about 30L)
Cloudy apple juice cider. (about 18L)
Cloudy apple juice + frozen raspberry cider. (about 8L)
Apple cider from freshly juiced apples (about 400ml in the end).

The apple and pear is OK. Nothing to write home about but perfectly drinkable.

The cloudy apple juice cider is amazeballs. Really tasty and improving every day. I ended up having to use the cheapo sweetener because I forgot to add the splenda when batch priming. The cheapo sweetener dissolved easily in the bottle so I went with that. Nothing bad to say about the sweetener so I'll continue using it (it works out about 10% the price of splenda - with splenda actually working out relatively expensive for a reasonable batch size). I've ended up giving away quite a bit of this because it's very popular among family members. I have kicked off another 18L batch of this and will probably kick off another larger batch shortly after the 18L one finishes fermenting.

The apple + raspberry turned out nothing like I was expecting. It is very tasty but doesn't taste very much of raspberry. It is the current favoured drink of my wife though, who normally wouldn't touch a cider. I didn't add enough sweetener for my liking. I'll probably try something similar with a mix of berries and also may try with raspberries again except with better removal of the non-juice parts from the fermenting liquid next time.

I didn't add anything to the freshly juiced apple (except some priming sugar). Very dry but nice. It was very clear compared to the stuff the I get from the cloudy apple juice (surprise! ). I wouldn't be inclined to drink something that dry in quantity, but it was nice to taste a "pure" cider.

Khannie

Khannie wrote: »

The apple and pear is OK. Nothing to write home about but perfectly drinkable.

This is ageing very well.

I bought another 30L of the cloudy apple juice at the weekend and going to kick off a brew tomorrow when my yeast arrives. Considering doing a smaller batch of apple and mixed berry or apple and blueberry. If I do, I'll be sure to get all of the seeds etc. out this time. Fairly sure that the flavour was affected last time.

Going to look into making a fruit press over the summer months too. That should be fun.

sharingan

I normally blend the fruit solids, extract juice, and then place the remaining solids in a muslin bag and tie them together.

Makes for easier extraction.

Khannie

Can you give me a bit more detail there? Let's say you blend the berries in a blender. How do you extract the juice then while leaving the solids behind? Then you have the solids in the muslin bag, do you just give it an oul' squeeze?

Khannie

General question: I've seen people mention raisins for body. Do you just toss them in?

Another general question: I'm not in any rush with the brew I'm kicking off tonight since I have a reasonable amount in the bottle already. I was thinking of racking it after primary and leaving it for a while (2-4 weeks maybe) before bottling. Will this benefit the end product? I'm thinking I'd like less lees in the bottle and that this might help.

Final general question: I might like to remove some of the cloud from the cloudy apple juice. Will pectolase do this for me? I have a filter that I bought for the wine that I'm brewing for my wife. Should I just use that instead?

BeerNut

Khannie wrote: »

I've seen people mention raisins for body. Do you just toss them in?

Sanitise first. A five minute simmer in a few mls of water will do it, then chuck the lot in, water and all.

Khannie wrote: »

Will this benefit the end product? I'm thinking I'd like less lees in the bottle and that this might help.

Yes, the longer you leave it the clearer it will get. Storing it somewhere cool will help speed that up too.

Baneblade

just to on from the first question, i was thinking of starting a 4-5 litre batch later. what amount of raisins would be recommended.

BeerNut

I'd say about 50g - 100g would do it.

Beware of vegetable oil, though. Most raisins are coated in vegetable oil which can give you a nasty oil slick on your cider. I used the Sun Maid ones as they were the only kind I could find which were oil-free. I also froze and defrosted them before sanitising to help the yeast get at the sugars inside.

Khannie

Made a slight miscalculation last night when starting up my brew. Open to suggestions here.

I boiled up 3 tea bags and a bunch of raisins (around 200g, give or take). I took a hand blender to the raisins for a few seconds. Enough to make coarse chunks out of them. Added 300g of glucose / dextrose, boiled some more. Into bucket, 30L of apple juice, yeast, took a reading and it was 1050 which I wasn't expecting, then I realised that I hadn't factored in the extra sugar in the rasins. School boy error. Now I gave it some thought and I'm not certain that I got a high reading because I used the tap to get the sample. With the raisins at the bottom, there might have been a higher concentration of sugar there.

So anyway, online calculators say 6.5% if that fully ferments out. Add some more for the priming and all of a sudden it'll probably end up around the 7% mark (I like it very fizzy ). That sounds like it'll be a bit on the high side for me so I'd like to lower it a bit. I was thinking:

- Prime with apple juice - This should dilute it somewhat.
- Add more apple juice a few days in (not much room left in the bucket) - This should dilute it somewhat too.
- Bottle before it's fully fermented, without adding any priming sugar.
- Water it down a bit at bottling time (not mad on this idea).

I'd leave it if I thought 7% would be OK. I'm wary of it tasting a bit alcohol-ey though.

Have any of you faced this before? Does 7% taste OK? Any other suggestions?

BeerNut

You can achieve any lower OG by adding (boiled, cooled) water at any time.

Divide the last two digits of your desired OG by the last two of your actual OG (50) and multiply by 100. This gives you the percentage of the total desired volume that you currently have.

Divide this percentage by the volume of liquid you have and multiply by 100. This is the total amount you need to reach your desired OG. Make up the difference by adding that amount of water.

If you tell me how much you have and what your desired OG is I can do the maths for you.

Khannie

BeerNut wrote: »

You can achieve any lower OG by adding (boiled, cooled) water at any time.

From a taste and flavour perspective, is this what you'd advocate?

BeerNut wrote: »

If you tell me how much you have and what your desired OG is I can do the maths for you.

Thanks. I'll fire up the oul' brain if you think water is the best way to go. I enjoy that kind of thing.

BeerNut

Khannie wrote: »

From a taste and flavour perspective, is this what you'd advocate?

No, from a technical one. Tastes vary and there aren't any mathematical forumlae for them . If it were me, I'd carry on as usual and if it's too strong at the end I'd add apple juice to taste when serving.

Khannie

BeerNut wrote: »

If it were me, I'd carry on as usual and if it's too strong at the end I'd add apple juice to taste when serving.

That sounds prudent. I think I'll prime with apple juice too.

Khannie

For anyone else that this may happen to: I broke out the calculator and adding 2L or apple juice now + priming with 3.5L of apple juice will reduce the "primed" OG to 1048 which should see the final bottled product end up around the 6.3% mark, which I'm perfectly happy with.