Prime Time - Investigation Into Prostitution: Feb 7th 2012

orathaic

So what do you do?

Provide these women with a minimum wage, decent working conditions (ie statuortry rights on the hours that they work) and medical services.

Regulation and tax.

In the hopes that you can empower the women to take their pimps to court for violating said rights.

You need a system in place to provide protection to trafficked/prostituted women - At present there may be some shelters setup (perhaps several in dublin), but you can't just go into the local garda station and tell them your pimp is threatening you.

The law currently prohibits offering of sale/purchase of sex, anywhere. That means on the street, in a brothel, anywhere. Having sex for money isn't against the law. Just soliciting and running a brothel.

Those three women in dundalk who were charged with operating a brothel.

The current law is effectively circumvented by this 'escort' service website, which offers company, something which can be legally offered. That website isn't doing anything illegal. I noticed they said many times in the show 'as young as 18' implying these criminals are probably being particularly careful NOT to use underage girls to avoid a bigger ****-storm.

In practice the law needs to be changed - I presume the law as it stands (ie not making exchanging sex for money illegal) is trying to protect individuals who may be under coercion - but what changes will have what effect?

I doubt that charging a few men with rape will 'make them think twice'; i'd say that will cause someone to challenge this ruling and win. Meanwhile men will continue to act on their desires.

Some men, i'm sure, would prefer to get an easy lay than the go to the effort of seducing some random girl in a bar/club. Less effort if they have the money. And this will continue...

Is Ireland ready to take a different tack than the usual 'shame/fear' approach used by the Church for centuries, or is it ready to empower women with the right to protect themselves from coercion and exploitation??

Mr. Loverman

I didn't watch the show, but could someone tell me did they provide actual proof (video evidence etc.) or was it just Ruhama saying this and that?

The reason I say this is that Ruhama have not been able to provide any evidence for their claims in the past, so I am curious to see was there actual evidence presented on the show.

SBWife

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I didn't watch the show, but could someone tell me did they provide actual proof (video evidence etc.) or was it just Ruhama saying this and that?

The reason I say this is that Ruhama have not been able to provide any evidence for their claims in the past, so I am curious to see was there actual evidence presented on the show.

Yes, there was hidden camera footage of pimps moving women around the country, an analysis of the website used over a multi month period, interviews with girls, diaries and financial records found at one location. The Ruhama interview was approx 5 mins of a one hour show.

Mr. Loverman

Were the women being forced to work as prostitutes against their will, or was it just a case of prostitutes working where their boss wanted them to work?

There is a big difference so I am curious. (Ruhama try to claim all prostitutes are forced against their will and/or trafficked which obviously isn't true.)

Sorry for the questions but I can't watch the programme in China.

SBWife

In the case of the Romanians and one African women, yes, they were being coerced. In particular the Romanian women are very young (18-21), have little to no English, and are not permitted to leave the apartments, and are moved often in the middle of the night from place to place.

It wasn't included in the program but the particular pimp featured (along with his female assistant, who was not featured in the program) works to ensure there is no camaraderie between the girls. The groupings in the apartments are changed regularly, and jealousy and resentment is developed by favouring individual girls. They'll pick a favourite a buy her cheap teddy bears etc. and maybe bring her out to lunch at McDonalds until the others fully turn against her then they'll choose another.

MaxSteele

Legalise it already. Our government are just so out of touch. Outlawing personal habits and hobbies is just pointless, a waste of tax-payer money, garda resources, and fills prisons unnecessarily. Regulate and tax the trade properly with health checks, proper security, and legal brothels. Basically the same structure as strip club or red light distrcit you would find in Germany or Holland. I agree, go after the traffickers and pimps who are scum regardless, but this war on trafficking, is the same as the useless war on drugs. Legalize it and tax it. Only solution. Prohibition didn't work, why would anything else??

fryup

does anyone know if that fcuker Anton is still in the country??

he's got some brass neck if he is

kraggy

Do I have this right?

In the documentary, the blonde female Irish pimp in the house in Clondalkin is a pimp who pays the website per girl on her roster.

The Romanian stocky guy who ships girls around the country is at the same level.

So they are both pimps, independent of each other, using the website as a vehicle to pimp the girls.

Right?

Second question, what's the chances that the blonde Irish one does actually give half the money to her girls like she said she would to the RTE girl who phoned up to enquire about working?

mikom

MaxSteele wrote: »

Legalise it already. Our government are just so out of touch. Outlawing personal habits and hobbies is just pointless, a waste of tax-payer money, garda resources, and fills prisons unnecessarily. Regulate and tax the trade properly with health checks, proper security, and legal brothels. Basically the same structure as strip club or red light distrcit you would find in Germany or Holland. I agree, go after the traffickers and pimps who are scum regardless, but this war on trafficking, is the same as the useless war on drugs. Legalize it and tax it. Only solution. Prohibition didn't work, why would anything else??

QFT.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I didn't watch the show, but could someone tell me did they provide actual proof (video evidence etc.) or was it just Ruhama saying this and that?
The reason I say this is that Ruhama have not been able to provide any evidence for their claims in the past, so I am curious to see was there actual evidence presented on the show.

Ruhama are a Catholic campaigning agency, so I would pay as much attention to them as I would to a pimp.

Ash.J.Williams

kraggy wrote: »

Do I have this right?

In the documentary, the blonde female Irish pimp in the house in Clondalkin is a pimp who pays the website per girl on her roster.

The Romanian stocky guy who ships girls around the country is at the same level.

So they are both pimps, independent of each other, using the website as a vehicle to pimp the girls.

Right?

Second question, what's the chances that the blonde Irish one does actually give half the money to her girls like she said she would to the RTE girl who phoned up to enquire about working?

The blonde has a conviction for keeping a slave does she not???


ahhh
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/from-socialite-to-madam-to-slavedriver-504754.html

nxbyveromdwjpg

NewHillel wrote: »

The big issue, for me, is removing the coercion and people trafficing.

I think everyone can agree on this

gbee

nm wrote: »

I think everyone can agree on this

Absolutely. I've never been with a lady of the night, but I did have juvenile perceptions and lustful thoughts; my wife asked once what I wanted for my 50th birthday and I said a night with a prostitute.

I'm well over 50 now, still waiting for my present.
:P

Mr. Loverman

I think programmes like this show the industry will just go further underground and get worse if the laws are changed to inflict heavier penalties on those involved (from punter to prostitute to pimp.)

It seems obvious the only real solution is to decriminalise and regulate.

Mr. Loverman

And I have to say I find it weird that the sale of sex is illegal in the first place. (Let's be honest, it's not illegal because of trafficking or whatever, it's illegal because as a society we think sex is a bit immoral or shameful or wrong).

edwood

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

And I have to say I find it weird that the sale of sex is illegal in the first place. (Let's be honest, it's not illegal because of trafficking or whatever, it's illegal because as a society we think sex is a bit immoral or shameful or wrong).

Agreed

Park Royal

If the lads in the Garda Stations stopped looking at AutoTrader and got out

more , there would be far less abuse of women.....

IF RTE could observe these pimps, its obviously not being dealt with

by the Garda in a serious way.....

You dont need to be Sherlock bleeding Holmes.....

Ash.J.Williams

If the state/cops doesn't act on everything illegal in that episode of Primetime, then it was nothing more than an advertisement for escort hyphen ireland and hookers in general.

Tayla

Sad article here from todays Irish examiner from an ex prostitute who thinks that legislation wouldn't make it any safer.

mikom

Tayla wrote: »

Sad article here from todays Irish examiner from an ex prostitute who thinks that legislation wouldn't make it any safer.

Reads like a work of fiction concocted by one of the papers journalists.
I wouldn't believe anything I read in those rags.

"When the Sexual Offences Act of 1993 came into force it drove me and many others indoors, where we had even less autonomy over the conditions of our own lives. In the brothels and the ‘escort’ agencies, we had to endure the same things we did on the streets, but we had to endure them for longer, and with no screening process as to who would pay to abuse us.

Under Irish law, the abusive nature of prostitution has been allowed to flourish unhindered and it is a living hell for the women struggling to survive within it. It is primarily for the sake of these women, but also for all of us who want to live in a gender-equal society, that I am gladdened to see the Irish Government finally pledge to tackle this issue.

"I only hope that they go the right way about it, which is to criminalise the purchase of sex, because nothing will change for prostituted women and girls until the commercialisation of female bodies is dealt the hammer-blow it so richly deserves.

Mr. Loverman

mikom wrote: »

Reads like a work of fiction concocted by one of the papers journalists.

I agree. Or more likely, it was written by Ruhama and given to the newspaper (they've been writing articles for the Irish Independent for years.)

I am friends with an ex-prostitute and she has friends who are ex or current prostitutes. I have spoken to her about her past experiences and she never witnessed any kidnapping/forced prostitution (i.e. she and her friends became prostitutes because they didn't want to work in crappy jobs for crappy pay). She worked both on the streets and online (via the escort websites).

I know anecdotal evidence is just anecdotal evidence, but you'd swear talking to some people they think all prostitution is forced.

Skopzz

Prostitution should be legalized in Ireland because other countries that did this have actually seen diminished levels of the purchase of sex as well as lower organized crime and less money laundering. Speaking as a female.

Eileen_Lang

mikom wrote: »

Reads like a work of fiction concocted by one of the papers journalists.
I wouldn't believe anything I read in those rags.

I am glad someone else sees this, not just me. It doesn't even make sense.

This is basically a crude transcription of one of the arguments I have personally been using to oppose and reverse the 1993 act that re criminalised independent, street prostitution and became, in effect a pimp's charter, leading to the explosion of pimping and organised prostitution since.

"When the Sexual Offences Act of 1993 came into force it drove me and many others indoors, where we had even less autonomy over the conditions of our own lives. In the brothels and the ‘escort’ agencies, we had to endure the same things we did on the streets, but we had to endure them for longer, and with no screening process as to who would pay to abuse us.

But in this article they use it as a totally invalid, irrelevant premise to support the following, rather senseless, conclusion

Under Irish law, the abusive nature of prostitution has been allowed to flourish unhindered and it is a living hell for the women struggling to survive within it. It is primarily for the sake of these women, but also for all of us who want to live in a gender-equal society, that I am gladdened to see the Irish Government finally pledge to tackle this issue.


"I only hope that they go the right way about it, which is to criminalise the purchase of sex, because nothing will change for prostituted women and girls until the commercialisation of female bodies is dealt the hammer-blow it so richly deserves.

Ridiculous...it totally ignores the vital part personal autonomy (for sex workers, as well as for everyone else) needs to play in any "gender equal society" ...and also the vital part the money they get in return for sex plays in the autonomous lives and choices of sex workers.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I agree. Or more likely, it was written by Ruhama and given to the newspaper (they've been writing articles for the Irish Independent for years.)

Thanks, that may explain why, all of a sudden, however polite, relevant and restrained my comments are (and they are, truly, the last one that vanished genuinely just thanked the writer for certain aspects of an article - hardly the stuff of defamation cases!) they no longer seem to be be approved on Indo articles...I have one pending now ( here: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nurses-back-calls-to-give-immunity-to-sex-workers-3017538.html )...I won't get paranoid, in my long experience the press are more than fair on this issue.

But truly, if TORL find me a sufficient threat to ask the Indo to gag me I must be doing something right - so I guess I had better keep doing it, and even step it up.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I am friends with an ex-prostitute and she has friends who are ex or current prostitutes. I have spoken to her about her past experiences and she never witnessed any kidnapping/forced prostitution (i.e. she and her friends became prostitutes because they didn't want to work in crappy jobs for crappy pay). She worked both on the streets and online (via the escort websites).

I know anecdotal evidence is just anecdotal evidence, but you'd swear talking to some people they think all prostitution is forced.

Exactly the same here, and that would go for everyone involved I have ever known...

OF COURSE I have seen one or two women being abused and pimped off in relationships that would be horror stories, with, or without, prostitution...and I have spent my own money getting them to safety (no thanks to any NGO or religious congregation - but a LOADS of thanks to a few lovely clients who helped...WAY beyond the call of duty).

I really do not like the extent to which indoor prostitution and the questionable organisations that control and profit from it have flourished and become far more exploitative since the 1993 act disempowered the women and forced them to accept any terms they can get to avoid prosecution.

I HATE the way this new legislation will only make that far, far worse, as the clients have no choice but deal with organised crime to evade prosecution too.

But not half as much as I hate the fact that this proposed legislation will only make life far harder and more dangerous for the women who depend on selling sex for a living...and perhaps even impossible for a few...

...and all so a few NGOs can junket and congratulate each other on a sense of their own superiority...

Eileen_Lang

Just as a PS...it seems as thought the Indo is, indeed blacklisting my comments...all I can say is that they are usually fairly brief, and in the same vein as my posts here...as you will see in future, because I will be posting my comments to the indo up on my site so people can see just what the Indo sees the need to suppress on this issue...

creditable

I just registered to say some things about the program and the response to it here.

When the investigators entered the apartment where the girls were working from, the book in which the the girl's earnings were recorded displayed that the girls were receiving a 40/60 split of the profits. If you take into consideration the costs of travel and accommodation, this would essentially amount to a 50/50 split of the profits between the girls and Ion. Seeing how the girls were earning €400 or so a day, 7 days a week, that would amount to €1120 profit a week for the girls, who would then take that money back with them to Romania where it would be considered a small fortune. So it seems to me like a win/win situation; both parties are earning decent sums of money. The girls were being moved around to draw more customers which benefited both party's profits. It would be very difficult for a Romanian women with little English to travel to Ireland, set up accommodation, pay for a profile on that site and move from town to town to maximize their profit margin. I really, really do not buy that these women were brought here with the belief they're getting into anything other than prostitution, at least in the case of Ion's business arrangement. If he was going to dupe them that severely, he would definitely not give them that much of a cut.

Going by the assumption that I'm not somehow mistaken about the above, is what Ion doing really such an immoral thing? Yes he is technically exploiting the women in some sense, but isn't it the same kind of exploitation that is the fundamental aspect of all business? If these women are receiving decent pay for little work due to the massive cultural value of casual sex in this country, I really don't see how it's such a bad thing.

As for the West-African girl, it's obvious that €30 per day was take-home pay. Over €200 a week is a lot of money in most African Countries.

SBWife

Credible - you are very much mistaken.

Ion charged the girls for all expenses, rent, transportation, clothing, food etc. at inflated rates, it took weeks for them to manage to put together small amounts of money. A €200 remittance to Romania was the largest Western Union amount found.

Mr. Loverman

I knew a prostitute who had been working for three years and had 140k cash in her apartment. Just sayin'.

SBWife

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I knew a prostitute who had been working for three years and had 140k cash in her apartment. Just sayin'.

Ion's girls had a tin of change.

creditable

SBWife wrote: »

Credible - you are very much mistaken.

Ion charged the girls for all expenses, rent, transportation, clothing, food etc. at inflated rates, it took weeks for them to manage to put together small amounts of money. A €200 remittance to Romania was the largest Western Union amount found.

€200 per week? Can you provide any sources to back up this claim? I'm sure that if Ion's girls were being compensated by any amount that resembled a pittance, it would have been sensationalized to the same extent it was with the African woman.


What about the slaves in China and elsewhere working 16 hours a day for €2 or less to manufacture clothing, toys, phones etc., where's the outrage about that? It's non-existent, because we all consumes such items and of course it's not anywhere near as bad because they don't have to do the unthinkable and actually touch something so grotesque as an average Irish man :eek:. It's extremely easy for an Irish females to sit there and shame their male counterparts who buy sex, as they do not have a clue about how male sexuality works; they simply compare it to their own inferior levels of sexual desire and blindly conclude that those males who do it must be woman-abusers and misogynists.

The real issue here is the massive cultural valuation of casual sex that's inherit in modern Irish men. The fact that a huge proportion of us are willing to pay such outrageous amounts of money for a short period of sexual activity shows that the reasoning behind it is psychologically ingrained and not due to physical desire. When men are subjected to living in an overly sexually stimulated culture in which casual sex is considered a compulsory recreational activity, certain consequences such as increased rates of rape and human trafficking for prostitution are unfortunately going to be inevitable; it's an unavoidable result of the libertarian society people are being compelled to want to have yet not willing to accept the consequences of. Our wise male ancestors of this earth realized and understood that in order for civilization to flourish, sex simply cannot be prevalent outside the context of marriage (or love at the very least). When a society experiences a complete breakdown in traditional gender roles largely due to false feminist propaganda, the romantic connection between the sexes is heavily diminished and male sexuality is left unconsolidated; in contemporary society it largely becomes channeled into pornography and other such forms of media and males and females' prevalent mentality towards sex becomes consistent of 'sex is dirty' type programming. Now, I know what I'm saying is way, way too deep for most Irish people who only like to take the superficial aspects of things into consideration, but deep reasoning is key in all complex issues whether you are blinded of the ability to comprehend it or not.

What's the answer to the question of how to deal with the unfortunate prostitution scenario we have in this country? I'd love to say reverting back to the old monogamous system, where love and passion between men and woman in traditional gender roles was a lot more so the norm and people were truly much happier than they are now, but unfortunately we're far too deep into this mess; technology has moved on and irreversible cultural programming has taken place to make this an impossibility. The solution simply comes down to where the liberal current is taking us: full legalization. It's inevitable and only a matter of time and of course how many women we're willing to let be 'exploited and abused' by evil devils in the meantime. :mad: (face of self-righteousness)

Mr. Loverman

creditable wrote: »

What about the slaves in China and elsewhere working 16 hours a day for €2 or less to manufacture clothing, toys, phones etc., where's the outrage about that?

Because deep down people don't have a problem with exploitation, they just have issues with sex.

POKERKING

I doubt Samantha blandford hutton is paying 50/50 or anything like that. Paul reynolds wrote a great book about the sex trade "sex in the city" and a lot of focus was on her, shes an evil bitch but she also had "slaves" working for pract nothing in her cleaning company and that's essentially what she went to jail for.

Google her name loads of stories to it.