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Prime Time - Investigation Into Prostitution: Feb 7th 2012

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    #62
    steelcityblues
    Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    lynski wrote: »
    no punters = no traffickers and pimps it is kinda simplistic i know, but demand is what is keeping those women trapped in those flats in every major town in Ireland.
    and what kind of a man are you if you have to pay someone to have sex with you?

    One - who as long as they are respectful to the women involved - is no more odd than anyone else.


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    #63
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    I bet this discussion is as old as the profession itself.


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    #64
    NewHillel
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭NewHillel


    Fight_Night wrote: »
    I personally am of the opinion that consensual sex between two adults where money is exchanged is not necessarily wrong and shouldn't necessarily be illegal. But trafficking like that is disgusting and should definitely be stamped out by any means necessary.

    I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
    The problem with prostitution, in that regard, is that it is all but impossible to be sure that the prostitute is truly a free agent.


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    #65
    NewHillel
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭NewHillel


    JonathanAnon wrote: »
    In reality most of the men are just sad and lonely individuals, who wouldnt get sex outside of a brothel.

    So that's all right then. Doesn't matter whether the woman is working under duress, or not - once the "poor lonely man" is looked after. Not in my universe!


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    #66
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,690 ✭✭✭jd


    NewHillel wrote: »
    I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
    It'd be interesting to see a libertarian like Shane Ross debate the issue in the Dail, for sure.. :)


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    #67
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    NewHillel wrote: »
    So that's all right then. Doesn't matter whether the woman is working under duress, or not - once the "poor lonely man" is looked after. Not in my universe!

    That's so what he was trying to say yeah.


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    #68
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,291 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    JonathanAnon wrote: »
    In reality most of the men are just sad and lonely individuals, who wouldnt get sex outside of a brothel..

    And I dont appreciate your "all men are b*stards" tone, you sound like those Ruhama people... Dont forget some women, like that ex model, are also profiting from the sex trade..

    I don't think the men that pay for sex are sad or lonely, they're just horny.


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    #69
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    NewHillel wrote: »
    So that's all right then. Doesn't matter whether the woman is working under duress, or not - once the "poor lonely man" is looked after. Not in my universe!

    just my opinion but i think a guy who cant score the conventional way would get more out of chastity than getting sex in the same way you get a haircut , by using cash , i think sex for money is bad for the one paying aswell


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    #70
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    NewHillel wrote: »
    I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
    The problem with prostitution, in that regard, is that it is all but impossible to be sure that the prostitute is truly a free agent.

    That to me is the killer argument.

    I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think criminalising the customer will do it. Traffickers & pimps are already criminals but the money to be made is obviously huge. Some form of legalisation (and, pragmatist that I am, taxation!)?


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    #71
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,291 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    That to me is the killer argument.

    I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think criminalising the customer will do it. Traffickers & pimps are already criminals but the money to be made is obviously huge. Some form of legalisation (and, pragmatist that I am, taxation!)?

    Isn't it currently illegal to pay for sex?


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    #72
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Isn't it currently illegal to pay for sex?

    Not according to the programme I've just watched.


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    #73
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,291 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    Not according to the programme I've just watched.

    Oh right, I didn't really watch the second half. I always thought both the customer and the prostitute were breaking the law.


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    #74
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    NewHillel wrote: »
    I am all for a Libertarian society, for consenting adults. It is simply nobody else's business what consenting adults do in their private lives.
    The problem with prostitution, in that regard, is that it is all but impossible to be sure that the prostitute is truly a free agent.

    I didn't watch the show, but these 'punters' must know full well and be able to distinguish women are being kept as slaves as opposed to the consenting 'professional' women in it for the money? Surely your conscience would at least make you go and give an anonymous tip? You'd want to be a seriously f***ed up human being if you could sleep at night knowing that someone who could easily be your mother/sister/daughter given different circumstances is essentially being raped on a daily basis and you did nothing.


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    #75
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Oh right, I didn't really watch the second half. I always thought both the customer and the prostitute were breaking the law.

    If I got it right, prostitution isn't illegal in Ireland. Soliciting is, and by extension brothel-keeping. So offering sex for money breaks the law but asking for sex for money doesn't?


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    #76
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    token101 wrote: »
    I didn't watch the show, but these 'punters' must know full well and be able to distinguish women are being kept as slaves as opposed to the consenting 'professional' women in it for the money? Surely your conscience would at least make you go and give an anonymous tip? You'd want to be a seriously f***ed up human being if you could sleep at night knowing that someone who could easily be your mother/sister/daughter given different circumstances is essentially being raped on a daily basis and you did nothing.

    from viewing prime time , it appears all prostitutes are controlled by someone , no such thing as say when , say where , say who with


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    #77
    JonathanAnon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    Not according to the programme I've just watched.

    It IS still illegal. They arrested the prostitutes in this program, but normally the guards focus on the punters.. But both sides of the "transaction" are illegal.


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    #78
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    token101 wrote: »
    ...essentially being raped on a daily basis...

    Interesting point. Could a punter, even theoretically, be charged with rape for having sex with a trafficked/pimped prostitute? That might make some people think twice.


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    #79
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    from viewing prime time , it appears all prostitutes are controlled by someone , no such thing as say when , say where , say who with

    I don't know about that. Again, I didn't watch the show, but I'd say some are in it for the money. There was an article in the Journal about some hard up single mother saying she was doing it. Now the article's probably bull****, but I'd say there's a fair few, particularly Irish women, on the game through choice, albeit because of economic hardship.


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    #80
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    I don't think one can psychoanalysis men, I'm thinking of Liz Hurley's boy friend a few years ago. I'd suggest that the majority of men were stunned to hear that her parter had been arrested for hiring a prostitute.


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    #81
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    Interesting point. Could a punter, even theoretically, be charged with rape for having sex with a trafficked/pimped prostitute? That might make some people think twice.

    I wouldn't think so since he isn't raping anybody
    token101 wrote: »
    but I'd say there's a fair few, particularly Irish women, on the game through choice, albeit because of economic hardship.

    A lot of people are in a lot of jobs they don't want due to economic hardship
    gbee wrote: »
    I don't think one can psychoanalysis men, I'm thinking of Liz Hurley's boy friend a few years ago. I'd suggest that the majority of men were stunned to hear that her parter had been arrested for hiring a prostitute.

    Good point, that was a strange one alright, bizarre really.

    Attempting to stamp out the "want" for sex is absolutely absurd in any case, these people are obviously desperate, as desperate as the economic hardship cases hence the consent and exchange.

    IMO it should be heavily regulated and licensed (health checks etc) and taxed. You can be pretty sure of no trafficking then and no punter will go to a criminal out of choice I wouldn't think. Obvious tax benefit also.


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    #82
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    How long does it take for Prime Time to be put on the RTE website? Wanna have a look at this later. Sounds interesting (while depressing).


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    #83
    JonathanAnon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    kraggy wrote: »
    How long does it take for Prime Time to be put on the RTE website? Wanna have a look at this later. Sounds interesting (while depressing).

    Up there already... http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1134839


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    #84
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    It was depressing. Women 'working' 100 hour weeks, in fear, being shunted around from one part of the country to another, living out of suitcases / bin bags in crappy apartments.

    These women werent 'working'. Work includes dignity, job satisfaction, and fair compensation. None of these applied to the women depicted in the programme. They were slaves.

    Whatever about the rights & wrongs of prostitution, which I am sure have been done to death elsewhere on boards, it is clear from the programme that there is a significant number of women who have been duped/coerced into prostitution here & have lost control of their lives & their destiny as human beings - and a lot of money is being made in the process.

    Ireland has two guards investigating, apparently.


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    #85
    nosey guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 334 ✭✭nosey guy


    cml387 wrote: »
    You might have least closed the curtains.

    This indeed was the shot of the night...talk about hand in the cookie jar.

    Easy pickings.


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    #86
    nosey guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 334 ✭✭nosey guy


    And no doubt ,ION Anton,claiming the dole joe..

    IN five different counties joe.


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    #87
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    JonathanAnon wrote: »
    Up there already... http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1134839

    Damn it. Won't play for me because of territorial reasons.

    Why is Prime Time Ireland-only? It's not like the soccer where rights have to be protected.


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    #88
    nosietoes
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭nosietoes


    To clarify and to answer those who have asked:

    It is absolutely legal in Ireland to buy and sell sex. It is illegal to run a brothel. It is illegal to solicite sex in a public location.

    The three girls who were arrested in the Prime Time show were arrested on charges of running a brothel.

    Also most apartment leases prohibit running any business from a rented apartment.

    Any charge is very hard to put against women... I have heard, though only through hearsay, that the gardaí need 10 punters who have legally bought sex from a girl to turn evidence on the existence of the brothel before they can hope to make an arrest.

    The sad fact is that there are far more girls coerced into selling sex than there are women choosing to profit from their bodies.


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    #89
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    JonathanAnon wrote: »
    It IS still illegal. They arrested the prostitutes in this program, but normally the guards focus on the punters.. But both sides of the "transaction" are illegal.

    You mean legal.

    Running a brothel and soliticting are illegal but the actual payment/receipt of payment are not.

    Just watched it there. Did that Samantha one (Irish pimp in Clondalkin) tell the undercover female producer that she'd get half the fee? So that would imply 100 of the 200 per hour charge.

    Yet that African girl interviewed said she could have 5 clients in a day but only get paid 30 euro for a days work.

    Poor things.

    Something needs to be done on the England side about that website.


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    #90
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,938 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    The ploughing championship


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    #91
    Park Royal
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Park Royal


    Looks to me as if Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner , need to have

    a meeting about getting some work done on these issues......

    sort of like, earn your pay.......and huge pensions....


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