FIREARMS LICENSING CASES BEFORE THE HIGH COURT

clivej

What to do now read the outcome of the High Court proceedings,
From the NASRPC website http://www.nasrpc.ie/hot-news-1/firearmsupdatelegalguidance

Firearms Update & Legal Guidance

We are pleased to publish the following guidance from William Egan and Associates Solicitors. We ask all affected shooting people to follow the advices as outlined.
In the event of any uncertainty or query please contact NARGC National Director Des Crofton or William Egan & Associates or any member of the NASRPC Committee

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxuYm5hc3JwY3xneDozYzI1NTdjZjM4MDE5Njgw&pli=1

rowa

Has anyone been told or seen in print what exactly was the settlement between the nargc/three test cases and the gardai ? What exactly was conceded or agreed ?
I ask because as far as i can see the only thing won was the right to reapply for a restricted pistol licence , which you can do anyway.

Grizzly 45

ASFIK Be unlikely ,unless the plantiffs want to make it public knowledge what their settlements were.If it is an "undisclosed" settlement... Never:(

sfakiaman

Commissioner defends policy on gun licensing

CONOR LALLY

GARDA COMMISSIONER Martin Callinan has said he does not think the system of senior officers deciding if gun licence applications should be granted is too bureaucratic, adding the matter was so serious that procedures needed to be closely followed.
Mr Callinan made his comments following a High Court case in which it was revealed gardaí had engaged in a blanket refusal to grant licences for some firearms rather than considering each application on its merits.
They had then completed the compulsory paperwork outlining their refusals only after it emerged the matter was to be challenged by gun enthusiasts in the High Court.
Commissioner Callinan said the issuing or refusal of gun licences was of such gravity that all proper procedures needed to be followed.
However, he told a hearing of the Dáil public accounts committee that the decision to grant or refuse a person the right to have a firearm was left solely with a local superintendent or chief superintendent. This responsibility was a burden for some of those officers.
“It’s important to point out that the recent case has highlighted some deficiencies in the administrative process,” he said. “But there’s a very, very serious responsibility placed on officers of An Garda Síochána in determining whether an individual should be issued with a licence.
“And I think I can do no more than mention the Newport case the other evening as a classic example of what can happen with lethal firearms.”
He was referring to a case in Co Tipperary on Monday night when a motorist who was approached by gardaí after driving erratically, shot at gardaí and then took a second weapon in his car and fatally wounded himself.
He said a reasoned decision needed to be taken in every case and that this needed to be recorded. “Basically it’s down to the individual officer; be it a superintendent or a chief superintendent, as to whether or not they will issue. And you have to have a process in place that informs that decision. Part of that is record keeping and that’s something I’ll be looking at very, very carefully.”
Mr Callinan said that Minister for Justice Alan Shatter had already asked him for a Garda report on the issues identified in the High Court hearing, which was only settled on Tuesday when the gardaí agreed to allow those rejected would-be licencees to reapply.
He said in the course of compiling that report his senior officers would be reviewing the application and decision-making process around gun licences.

Cass

GARDA COMMISSIONER wrote:

“But there’s a very, very serious responsibility placed on officers of An Garda Síochána in determining whether an individual should be issued with a licence.
“And I think I can do no more than mention the Newport case the other evening as a classic example of what can happen with lethal firearms.”

We knew this would be thrown back at us.

It has been said many times before that you cannot legislate for "exceptions". You give someone a firearms license, you cannot huarantee what that person will do in 1, 10, 25 years from now. I swear had the newport incident not occured he would have reverted back to a previous one.

Conor Lally wrote:

Mr Callinan said that Minister for Justice Alan Shatter had already asked him for a Garda report on the issues identified in the High Court hearing, which was only settled on Tuesday when the gardaí agreed to allow those rejected would-be licencees to reapply.

Thats a rather cheeky statment. "Allow". More like gave in after being found out, and before they were directed to give the licenses without re-application by the judge as seemed to be the way the case was going.

Conor Lally of Martin Callinan wrote:

He said in the course of compiling that report his senior officers would be reviewing the application and decision-making process around gun licences.

This is the time when they will circle the wagons. They will not take this public embarrasment lightly, and do not be surprised if they "retaliate" in some way.

I do find it odd however that the same "senior Gardai" responsible for this debacle are now going to be entrusted with reviewing it.:rolleyes: (More or less.)

knockon

Sparks wrote: »

From today's Independent:

Mr Justice Hedigan: The judge found that the evidence in two of the three test cases so far showed that the recording process had not been correctly followed and noted that it had been admitted that a substantial number of application forms had been altered, after having been previously signed and finalised.

"Mr Justice Hedigan:"The system which refuses restricted licences is the same system which grants them. If the system put in place is not being followed, then both the granting and refusing process is clearly flawed," he said.

Sparks wrote: »

From today's Independent:

sfakiaman wrote: »

Commissioner defends policy on gun licensing

CONOR LALLY

GARDA COMMISSIONER Martin Callinan has said he does not think the system of senior officers deciding if gun licence applications should be granted is too bureaucratic, adding the matter was so serious that procedures needed to be closely followed.

He said in the course of compiling that report his senior officers would be reviewing the application and decision-making process around gun licences.

So Comm. Callinan is saying that Justice Hedigan does'nt know what he is talking about?


The Commissioner should be aware just as in the Newport tragedy you can't avoid unforseen incidents which was also highlighted this week when allegedly an armed detective took a unmarked squad car without permission after drinking 5-6 pints when he was on duty and wrote off the squad car and a civilians vehicle as well. My point is people don't always follow the correct road in life, that's just the nature of society.

Grizzly 45

"Ass **le officers always promote and protect their own kind"
Gen George Patton.
Think that kind of sums it all up neatly.

homerhop

Perhps Mr Callinan should remember they are not exactly the best with firearms in public places. How far back should we go to remind him? Anyone remember the bank raid in Athy??? I do recall the raiders didnt fire a single shot yet Gardai opened up as if they were in the OK corral

Earlier that year, in January, gardai shot eight people, some of them innocent civilians, during an attempted bank raid in Athy, Co Kildare.

No one can predict tragic events such as the one that happened last week. There were quiet a few incidents with members of the force involving firearms that could have taken a far more tragic turn then the unforunate way they went.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ombudsman-probes-suicide-of-young-garda-2307264.html

Grizzly 45

We could of course metion Abbylara....
Or how about the "elite"ERU managing to kill one of their own with friendly fire a few years ago??

How many armed Garda officers killed themselves with their issued sidearms in the last three years???Four ?Five? was it??

How about allowing a retired SB man to hold onto the armoury keys and he goes in and draws a full auto UZI,and pops hmself with it???Good job he didnt fancy a Mc Donalds before he checked out!!

Funny we never seem to hear about the outcomes of these,after the great whitewash brush of the Garda Ombudsman is applied...[More retired Gardai] when it comes to these incidents..In good Irish tradition no one is to blame!!

rowa

The fact the report for the minister is going to be compiled by the commissioner who has already made his stance very clear (its not our fault its everyone else) and not by someone impartial is typical thick irish logic in action.
Yesterdays irish times should be a wake up call for the gardai , apart from the gun licence issues reported , there was the main headline "garda criticised over child sex abuse investigations" in which they were panned over their handling of abuse in a report, another report of a detective who crashed after spending an afternoon in the pub. It seems the gardai still think its the 50's and they can do as they want and not have to account for it.

knockon

To be fair the GSOC and AGS are not the best of friends and I understand the actions of the GSOC on a number of occasions particularly in the tragic case of a Member taking his own life in Hartcourt St. Dublin a few years ago were dealt with in a manner that caused tremendous upset to his family and colleagues.

I have a lot of friends on the force who are decent and honorable men and women. Our beef is with the Chiefs up to the Commissioner and I hope someone has put pen to paper about the Chiefs actions to the GSOC and see what they stir up?

.270 remington

the powers that be are out of the blocks early on this i wonder what s..t storm we can expect from them and the media but to be fair to irish times newspaper its reporting on these issues is ok.

.270 remington

i was going to phone up my local super who is a approchable man and shows a lot of common sense regarding firearm issues.
but after reading willie egans update its hard to know what to do
any suggestions

bazza888

how about the other garda drink driving and getting away with it because he was not cautioned properly,lol, nice the way you can do what you want when your a guard.
http://www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org/Home/Medal-of-Honor-with-Ed-Tracy-6.aspx

knockon

.270 remington wrote: »

i was going to phone up my local super who is a approchable man and shows a lot of common sense regarding firearm issues.
but after reading willie egans update its hard to know what to do
any suggestions

Take Willie Egans advice - it's solid. Your Super is a political appointee and is no doubt looking for promotion (a lot of that coming now according to Shatter) so he will only have his own best intentions at heart. Just my 2 cent. purely my own opinion but I may have it all wrong :rolleyes:.

puheen

What happened in court was certainly an eye opener. I personally am very happy for the people involved.
I do find it hard to understand why the NARGC, a game council, would spend so much time and effort and our much earned money representing an extreme minority of firearm holders.
Please dont get take me up the wrong way but there has been far to much spent on the few at the expense of the best

knockon

puheen wrote: »

What happened in court was certainly an eye opener. I personally am very happy for the people involved.
I do find it hard to understand why the NARGC, a game council
, would spend so much time and effort and our much earned money representing an extreme minority of big dick firearm holders.
Please dont get take me up the wrong way but there has been far to much spent on the few at the expense of the best

Sweet Jesus! Anyone?

rowa

puheen wrote: »

What happened in court was certainly an eye opener. I personally am very happy for the people involved.
I do find it hard to understand why the NARGC, a game council
, would spend so much time and effort and our much earned money representing an extreme minority of firearm holders.
Please dont get take me up the wrong way but there has been far to much spent on the few at the expense of the best

Great attitude :rolleyes:

It wasn't just pistol licences these senior gardai were refusing you know.

first amongst equals

I agree with puheen, the whole issue of a small number of centre fire pistols has dominated the sport. It's a tiny minority and getting smaller. Nothing in this court case help the rest of us shooters. In fact it could cause a tightening down.

Face facts centre fire pistol in ireland is a dying sport. There's nothing anyway you can't do with the equivalent small bore pistol

Anyway the court case outcome is a joke. All that will happen with the reapplication is the refusal letter will be in better English with more "reasons" I suspect most of them will just be refused again. Nothing in this court case helps shooters. It was a narrow case taken by a tiny minority who issues have gained far too much attention.

Given the situation the judge identified, to settle was poor show. In practice all they got was a chance to reapply. Big deal.

Chiparus

While I have tried pistol shooting , I have no real interest in it. That said I believe that the pistol issue is a part of a range of shooting .

Several senior gardai believe there should be no sporting shooting . even when it was limited to shotguns and .22s there was severe restrictions.

I was refused a moderator for a hunting license , despite the fact that my hearing is critical for my career. I did not argue the case as I was so embarrassed at the time.
Some of these people cannot be reasoned with. Even when they are caught doing wrong.
We have gained much over the last 15 years, much of it due to legal actions.

I think this fight was well worth it.

clivej

first amongst equals wrote: »

I agree with puheen, the whole issue of a small number of centre fire pistols has dominated the sport. It's a tiny minority and getting smaller. Nothing in this court case help the rest of us shooters. In fact it could cause a tightening down.

Face facts centre fire pistol in ireland is a dying sport. There's nothing anyway you can't do with the equivalent small bore pistol

Anyway the court case outcome is a joke. All that will happen with the reapplication is the refusal letter will be in better English with more "reasons" I suspect most of them will just be refused again. Nothing in this court case helps shooters. It was a narrow case taken by a tiny minority who issues have gained far too much attention.

Given the situation the judge identified, to settle was poor show. In practice all they got was a chance to reapply. Big deal.

"Face facts centre fire pistol in Ireland is a dying sport."

And its the reasons of trying to get a license, even when its been shown they these shooters have 'Good Season', that its becoming a dying sport.

Horses for courses...........
This is just one type of sports shooting and falls under the same as Clay shooting, as in its a type of sports shooting.

marlin vs

Fair play to the N.A.R.G.C. they are welcome to use my money to fight these cases, and highlight the wrong doing of the establishment,pistol's might be in the minority but if you'r entitled to hold one you should be allowed, and I have no interest in having one, but each man to his own.

macnas

first amongst equals wrote: »

I agree with puheen, the whole issue of a small number of centre fire pistols has dominated the sport. It's a tiny minority and getting smaller. Nothing in this court case help the rest of us shooters. In fact it could cause a tightening down.

Face facts centre fire pistol in ireland is a dying sport. There's nothing anyway you can't do with the equivalent small bore pistol

Anyway the court case out

come is a joke. All that will happen with the reapplication is the refusal letter will be in better English with more "reasons" I suspect most of them will just be refused again. Nothing in this court case helps shooters. It was a narrow case taken by a tiny minority who issues have gained far too much attention.

Given the situation the judge identified, to settle was poor show. In practice all they got was a chance to reapply. Big deal.

One post wonder, not having the balls to use his regular account invalidates his argument..........

NEXT!

The ally cat

Re-Reg - Now banned.

meathshooter1

MOD NOTE

Response to now banned user.

The ally cat

Re-reg. Now banned.

.270 remington

to all the antis here
would you like it if the powers that be took away your sport be it whatever
Fact
individuals that were granted a pistol permit were the most vetted people in the state.:rolleyes:

bravestar

MOD NOTE

Response to now banned user.

.270 remington

re antis again
can ye say the same regarding being vetted :mad:

Cass

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