FIREARMS LICENSING CASES BEFORE THE HIGH COURT

richiedel123

does this include the people who were fighting their cases at district court level or was it just at high court level

Grizzly 45

hk wrote: »

Grizzly,

While I agree with some of your sentiments I would have to disagree with other areas.

Well if we all agreed with everything it would be fierce boring altogether.:D

Having said that I do understand how some Chiefs may have been pressured into refusing certs from higher up and how some genuinely do not understand peoples need for the types of firearms in question, its very much a culture thing in a lot of ways.

Dont really think so..Who could pressurise somone with absolute power..Apprently no even the cheif comissioner can over rule a CS on this in their own districts..

On that note,apprently now it will be the big cheif comissioner himself who will have to reissue all the certs of those in the HC cases.:D:eek:

AND all those pending DC cases are now back to refer to the district court judge for judgement. IOW a formality now,as there is HC guidance on this as to what is acceptable or not good reason.:D
AND,those who were refused in the DC can now appeal with this HC case and look for costs too.:D

Yes indeed a culture alright.Of fear and suspicion since the civil war and foundation of the State.That came to a ridicilous climax in 1972 of a paranoid belif by the sucessive Irish govts of armed insurrection by the total, or extremist sections of the Irish citzenry!!
This fear and loathing of the Irish gunowner by the State belongs now in the dustbin of history!!We really dont do riots,rebellions and upheavel in this great little country of ours!We generally use "stupid aul pencils" and a ballot box to do our coups.Wether we put anything much better in place is another arguement!:rolleyes:
There is no more arguement of fear of the IRA arming themselves on our firearms...When they could tool up via the narcotics trade routes within the month if needed,and ditto the same for criminals,they order in a few dozen AKs and what not with the next shipment of Coke!
The times ,thay have a changed as the ol song goes.

What happened went way beyond a joke and in some cases was nothing more than a cynical two fingered salute to handgun owners. However I completely disagree with your sentiments regarding the GS involvement in the process and strongly disagree with your statement regarding the false imprisonment of innocent people.

Ahem...Can we say in Don e gal???
There is NO WAY that AGS can claim a "few bad apples" in the barrel in hicksville on this one!!This is high level commanding officers acting to the point of sedition on the State!!!
One of them who happened to have been involved and was promoted to CS on the very point of investigating Garda corruption in Donegal!:(
HOW DO YOU KNOW...that this hasnt happened ,or that gun owners have had their lives turned upside down with harrassment raids on the orders of their Supers or CS .This HAS happened to one well known personality in the shooting world down in the Munster region..So please dont presume to defend somthing that is very indefinsible by its own actions.And I'm not saying that this has happened..I'm saying and to use the Garda parlance it MIGHT have happened,or it COULD happen... So the best policy is prevent it happening!

EDIT:
And BTW ,I am Not knocking AGS personel who carry out their duties to the best of their ability and limited resourcses on a day to day basis.I am talking about the top officer corps who have been blatedly been found out to be interperting the law to their views!!
Are they now Gaurds,or politicans??Neither is compatible withthe other ,and should never be either.
How as a LEO could anyone have faith in those kind of commanders?Not to mind the citzenry now..
That is the kind of stuff revoulitions get started off in 3rd world countries.
I assume HK you are one of "the Force"..So you 'll know yourself what the consequences of going against a CS word would be to you personally???Proably the famous "transfer to the outer Skelligs!"

The GS will always have to have a central involvement in the process because there are plenty of people out there who should not have access to these firearms, a principal i support for both the protection of society and our sport.

CLEARLY they have shown they are not playing by the rules of the State,and certainly do not have my,and no doubt many more than me now , confidence in them anymore as a fair,unbaised police force.Not the beat men and women,BUT as the saying goes the warm and brown matter travels downhill,and there can be a dangerous predecent set that if shure the top brass are
mucking about with the law ...whats to stop us on the coal face doing the same??
Happens in the best and worst police forces..
If anything,they should be down to investigating and chacter assesment of any individual applying for a liscense,IOW the same as taxi drivers,child coaches etc.But the granting,admin etc should be now out of their hands...Even if this involved IMHO the requirements been changed on proof of competance of use.WITHOUT having to look as usual to Europe for a ridicilously over extreme testing situation and solution.

Regarding other EU countries, thats exactly the point they are other countries and as such are entitled to introduce any domestic laws which are in line with the overall EU legislation. And guess what, EU legislation on firearms specifically contains the provision that each member state may determine which types of firearms may be permitted and for what purposes.

And guess what too?? EU law also tops domestic law on issues of human rights and equality!!What makes me incompetant or a danger of owning a certain type of firearm in Ireland.Yet when I go to Germany and prove that I am qualified to use it safley there,I can have as many as I want???
I can actually go into the gun shop ,buy it over the counter and walk out of the shop with 1000 plus rounds of ammo too.Without showing the paperwork.The ONUS is on me to register it on my FAC within 7 days with my local council firearms dept.Granted that might be a bit too much for us to deal with here such liberty!:rolleyes:.But the principle of equality under EU legislation is the same.

However at this stage I currently do not see any major changes to the primary legislation within this jurisdiction and if one comes we will have to cross that bridge if and when it comes.

There wont be either!!The legislation as it stands wont change.What has been proven in the HC is that the implimentation of it by the body entrusted to do so has failed miserably!!
AND while this is not a HC judgement ,it is now a matter of record.
In the fact that the State conceeded on all points.

IOW IE they accepted that you need a big calibre pistol to shoot 1500 is a good reason to posses one.But refused the applications anyway.
That there is a tremendous difference between a "combat model" 9mm and a target model9mm,but still refused the applications.

For now I intend to enjoy getting back into my groove and competing as soon as i get the paperwork through and hope to see ye all back on the range soon!

THAT is the most important thing of today!!:D Lets get back out and go shooting ASAP

Grizzly 45

SIG wrote: »

If Police officers were forced to admit in open court that they had preverted the law then they would have had to resign.

Watch for a bunch of "early retirements" though. You become untouchable then for any cluster f%%ks you did in your career.:(

In "most other democratic countries", when senior police are found by the high court to be breaking the law by falsifying or manipulating official documents there would be suspensions, followed by investigations, followed by dismissals, followed by charges being filed etc. We live in Ireland though. We'll see how if the Comissioner, Minster and Ombudsman react to these 'revelations'. I might ask a couple of my elected representatives to ask Mr. Shatter in the Dail for me.

Do!! As this isnt over by a long shot![no pun] This was a battle ,not the war!
There is demand and pressure now for a public enqiry in to this.So it would be in everyones benefit to ask their TDs to raise this matter in the Dail.

sfakiaman

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/shooting-enthusiasts-win-court-battle-over-gun-licences-3005717.html

clivej

Full report from the Indo


By Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

Wednesday February 01 2012


MORE than 160 shooting enthusiasts were celebrating last night after the State settled a legal challenge on gun licences.
It means their rejected applications for restricted firearms will be considered again.
They had claimed their applications were being refused on a blanket basis by gardai without adequate reasons.
Justice Minister Alan Shatter last night asked the Garda Commissioner to produce a report on the operation of the firearms licensing system.
It comes after one of the country's most senior gardai admitted altering application forms for firearms licences.

Mandatory
Another senior garda responsible for issuing gun licences admitted, in a series of test cases brought by three sports enthusiasts, that he failed to complete mandatory sections on application forms.
The test cases, which will cost the taxpayer more than €500,000 in legal costs, were dramatically adjourned last week to allow the authorities to decide whether they could stand over the current firearms licensing system.
And yesterday, the State settled the actions, paving the way for 168 people refused firearms certificates to receive a new decision.
Last night, Mr Shatter said he was aware of issues that arose in the legal proceedings involving appeals against decisions of garda chief superintendents to refuse licences for large-calibre handguns.

However, he stopped short of ordering an independent inquiry.
"The minister has sought a full report from the garda commissioner on these issues," said a spokesperson for the Department of Justice.
"On the general issue of firearms licensing, the minister is determined to ensure that public safety is at all times the paramount consideration."

The National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC), which supported the test cases, said it was "outraged, but not surprised" at the behaviour of some senior gardai responsible for issuing restricted firearms licences.
"In light of the evidence placed before the High Court and the findings of Mr Justice (John) Hedigan in relation to same, NARGC now calls for fundamental changes to the licensing system to ensure transparency, fairness and the maintenance of public confidence in the safety and security provisions of the system," it said in a statement released after the terms of settlement were reached.

As part of the terms of settlement, the State has agreed to quash the decisions refusing restricted firearm certificates.
The applications will now be re-submitted for a fresh consideration.

- Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

clivej

Full report from todays Indo
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/shooting-enthusiasts-win-court-battle-over-gun-licences-3005717.html


By Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

Wednesday February 01 2012


MORE than 160 shooting enthusiasts were celebrating last night after the State settled a legal challenge on gun licences.
It means their rejected applications for restricted firearms will be considered again.
They had claimed their applications were being refused on a blanket basis by gardai without adequate reasons.
Justice Minister Alan Shatter last night asked the Garda Commissioner to produce a report on the operation of the firearms licensing system.
It comes after one of the country's most senior gardai admitted altering application forms for firearms licences.

Mandatory
Another senior garda responsible for issuing gun licences admitted, in a series of test cases brought by three sports enthusiasts, that he failed to complete mandatory sections on application forms.
The test cases, which will cost the taxpayer more than €500,000 in legal costs, were dramatically adjourned last week to allow the authorities to decide whether they could stand over the current firearms licensing system.
And yesterday, the State settled the actions, paving the way for 168 people refused firearms certificates to receive a new decision.
Last night, Mr Shatter said he was aware of issues that arose in the legal proceedings involving appeals against decisions of garda chief superintendents to refuse licences for large-calibre handguns.

However, he stopped short of ordering an independent inquiry.
"The minister has sought a full report from the garda commissioner on these issues," said a spokesperson for the Department of Justice.
"On the general issue of firearms licensing, the minister is determined to ensure that public safety is at all times the paramount consideration."

The National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC), which supported the test cases, said it was "outraged, but not surprised" at the behaviour of some senior gardai responsible for issuing restricted firearms licences.
"In light of the evidence placed before the High Court and the findings of Mr Justice (John) Hedigan in relation to same, NARGC now calls for fundamental changes to the licensing system to ensure transparency, fairness and the maintenance of public confidence in the safety and security provisions of the system," it said in a statement released after the terms of settlement were reached.

As part of the terms of settlement, the State has agreed to quash the decisions refusing restricted firearm certificates.
The applications will now be re-submitted for a fresh consideration.

- Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

homerhop

So there is still nothing there to stop them turning around and refusing all over again?

.270 remington

i would love to know the reason why the lads setteled their cases
when they had the defendants by the short and curlys

clivej

.270 remington wrote: »

i would love to know the reason why the lads setteled their cases
when they had the defendants by the short and curlys

"Bird in the hand ......................"

comes to mind

.270 remington

i think a judgement would have been far more beneficial for all concerned

.270 remington

has any body phoned up their dear cs this morning regarding their application;)

clivej

.270 remington wrote: »

i think a judgement would have been far more beneficial for all concerned

But maybe not for those that took the cases against their CS's to the courts. And I would expect that they also took legal opinion before accepting a settlement.

It could have gone either way if taken futher and perhaps been a better outcome for us/me/you that stand in the wings. We will never know now but all that was said in the court is now "mentioned" and others can now refer back to this hearing.

Thats the way I see it but then who (whom) am I???

Sparks

I had a prediction before all this started:

Sparks wrote: »

Prediction for the future:

• We win Walls' case, and maybe the other two.
• People crow in every media outlet available
• Every shouty person calls for MOAAR SHOUTING!
• DoJ sits there quietly, Minister fumes
• Someone pokes at Minister in Dail
• Minister announces new review of firearms legislation
• Criminal Justice Bill 2004 gets replayed
• We wind up able to licence airguns and .22 rifles only, and only if we're members of ISSF and live in the garda station with a rectal probe permanently installed for public safety.
• We wind up facing yet another fight against a crackdown we could have avoided via the FCP.
• I either say feck it and give up on ever doing anything but airgun, or quit shooting altogether and take up archery

It won't feel like it now and I'd love to join in the cheering, but the last ten years tell me that unless the Minister feels like publicly condemning the Gardai, this feels more like it's going to be a pyrrhic victory than anything else

.270 remington

hi clive
we are in the same district so it will be interesting what our cs will do
asfik no cf applications we granted in our division

meathshooter1

Sparks wrote: »

I had a prediction before all this started:

It won't feel like it now and I'd love to join in the cheering, but the last ten years tell me that unless the Minister feels like publicly condemning the Gardai, this feels more like it's going to be a pyrrhic victory than anything else

I cant see any minister publicly condemning the gardai,and I can go back to the 1980s for that ,the kerry babies case springs to mind and that joke of a tribunal.but there will be hell to pay behind closed doors.

clivej

Sparks wrote: »

I had a prediction before all this started:

It won't feel like it now and I'd love to join in the cheering, but the last ten years tell me that unless the Minister feels like publicly condemning the Gardai, this feels more like it's going to be a pyrrhic victory than anything else

Christ I hate BIG words.
Another for the 'look up wot that means' google search.

A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/) is a victory with such a devastating cost to the victor that it carries the implication that another such victory will ultimately cause defeat.

knockon

meathshooter1 wrote: »

personally all I want is to enjoy my sport,I work very hard and when family & business commitments allow,I love noting better than getting to the range or hunting with my rifles,I didn't want to take the CS to court I was left with no choice,and that was proved in court and vindicates all who took the same route.no one wanted this and we've caused no harm to anyone only to a golden circle who act is if they are impervious to the law.Im not garda bashing I know a lot of gardai who are a credit to the country and community and have personally agreed with me on this issue

Very happy to hear some good news MS1. As you said none of us wanted to go to Court and in my case with Grizzly and Dexter we had to cough up the best part of 3k each because of a few guys trying to implement their own laws. I would like to have seen the cases go all the way but knowing a few of the guys involved ( one of them was crucial to us in Limerick in prepping for the DC) he must have has his own "good reason" ( not it's our turn!) for settling. Congrats again to all of you. Let's enjoy the moment before we begin the next battle.

meathshooter1

clivej wrote: »

Christ I hate BIG words.
Another for the 'look up wot that means' google search.

A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/) is a victory with such a devastating cost to the victor that it carries the implication that another such victory will ultimately cause defeat.

nice one Clive heres another one persecution :the systemic mistreatment of a individual or group by another group.that word spring to mind

knockon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

EDIT:
And BTW ,I am Not knocking AGS personel who carry out their duties to the best of their ability and limited resourcses on a day to day basis.I am talking about the top officer corps who have been blatedly been found out to be interperting the law to their views!!

Probably sums it all up pretty well Grizzly.

clivej

knockon wrote: »

Very happy to hear some good news MS1. As you said none of us wanted to go to Court and in my case with Grizzly and Dexter we had to cough up the best part of 3k each because of a few guys trying to implement their own laws. I would like to have seen the cases go all the way but knowing a few of the guys involved ( one of them was crucial to us in Limerick in prepping for the DC) he must have has his own "good reason" ( not it's our turn!) for settling. Congrats again to all of you. Let's enjoy the moment before we begin the next battle.

Genuinely hope you guys get your costs covered.

cj

meathshooter1

+ 1 on that and thanks to everybody for there help

meathshooter1

another few words that spring to mind insubordination,& collusion,

clivej

clivej wrote: »

Christ I hate BIG words.
Another for the 'look up wot that means' google search.

A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/) is a victory with such a devastating cost to the victor that it carries the implication that another such victory will ultimately cause defeat.

meathshooter1 wrote: »

nice one Clive heres another one persecution :the systemic mistreatment of a individual or group by another group.that word spring to mind

meathshooter1 wrote: »

another few words that spring to mind insubordination,& collusion,

I knows wot thems words mean but its the BIG posh words that Sparks uses that gots mes cofuzed'id.
Money on it that Sparks reads the Times

Grizzly 45

clivej wrote: »

Genuinely hope you guys get your costs covered.

cj

NOPE!We got SFA on that I'm afraid...:(However, in the fact it was done and dusted within 4mins and liscenses granted in our favour,a ridicilous appeal by AGS to get this matter then tried as a civil matter like a pub liscense.:rolleyes::rolleyes:Dismissed and decision upheld. It was worth it.And I'd do it and will do it again if need be.

As for why these lads " settled" in the HC...Dont think that this is over by a long shot...

clivej

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NOPE!We got SFA on that I'm afraid...:(However, in the fact it was done and dusted within 4mins and liscenses granted in our favour,a ridicilous appeal by AGS to get this matter then tried as a civil matter like a pub liscense.:rolleyes::rolleyes:Dismissed and decision upheld. It was worth it.And I'd do it and will do it again if need be.

As for why these lads " settled" in the HC...Dont think that this is over by a long shot...

" As for why these lads " settled" in the HC...Dont think that this is over by a long shot "

I hear you on that one

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NOPE!We got SFA on that I'm afraid...:(However, in the fact it was done and dusted within 4mins and liscenses granted in our favour,a ridicilous appeal by AGS to get this matter then tried as a civil matter like a pub liscense.:rolleyes::rolleyes:Dismissed and decision upheld. It was worth it.And I'd do it and will do it again if need be.

As for why these lads " settled" in the HC...Dont think that this is over by a long shot...

I'd reckon shatter is sharpening his knife for us as we speak, he has already mentioned public safety in the indo article. just like ahern did you can do what you like and hide it behind the "public safety" excuse.

meathshooter1

rowa wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NOPE!We got SFA on that I'm afraid...:(However, in the fact it was done and dusted within 4mins and liscenses granted in our favour,a ridicilous appeal by AGS to get this matter then tried as a civil matter like a pub liscense.:rolleyes::rolleyes:Dismissed and decision upheld. It was worth it.And I'd do it and will do it again if need be.

As for why these lads " settled" in the HC...Dont think that this is over by a long shot...

I'd reckon shatter is sharpening his knife for us as we speak, he has already mentioned public safety in the indo article. just like ahern did you can do what you like and hide it behind the "public safety" excuse.

I remember and have some of the letters I got from charley flanagan & pat rabbit when cja bill was going through the dail condeming Amen Aherns policy .will Be interesting to see where they only vote grabbing ? Or continue the galway tent politics of the last government

rowa

I'd say rabbitte and flanagan were only using the shooters and the cja as a stick to beat ahern and the highly unpopular government with, promises and support evaporate very quickly with any of that crowd.

iTom

Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan has been asked for a report on gun licensing practices by senior officers in the force, Justice Minister Alan Shatter has revealed.

The order was given after hunting and shooting enthusiasts settled a lawsuit with garda authorities amid allegations of blanket refusals for certificates for restricted weapons, including handguns.

“We are obviously going to have to examine what emerged in the court case, and I don’t want to pre-empt or pre-judge the information that is going to come back to me, but quite clearly it is a matter that is going to have to be addressed,” Mr Shatter said.

The High Court action, brought by three men including a firearms dealer who has seven pistols for sport, was considered a test case for about 160 shooting enthusiasts who had been refused licences.

Garda figures show there are just over 215,000 legally held firearms in Ireland.

Judge John Hedigan had warned during hearings that he had serious concerns over claims that senior gardai altered a substantial number of licence applications.

Evidence heard in the court claimed to show forms altered after they had been finalised and apparently signed off. Large sections of forms were also left blank, leading to licences being refused.

Mr Shatter suggested it was unlikely new legislation will be needed to deal with the issue.

“The difficulty that appears to have arisen in those proceedings didn’t relate so much to the legislation as to the decision-making process and forms that were either filled in or not appropriately filled in,” he said.

“And I am not going to pre-empt the initial report that I am going to get from the Garda Commissioner.

“I am aware of some of the judicial comments made in that case and it is an issue that of course we are going to have to address, but I want to await the Garda Commissioner’s report.”

The garda denied there was a fixed policy of refusing licences.

The Dublin-based firearms dealer was seeking to overturn a licence refusal by Chief Superintendent Gerard Phillips of Ballymun Garda Station.

Under the current system, brought in three years ago to make it more difficult, on public safety and security grounds, to obtain a licence, the Garda Commissioner has responsibility for issuing licences.

The power is delegated to chief superintendents who decide whether an application should be approved.

It is understood gun enthusiasts have reported high refusal rates in 17 garda districts.

The National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC) yesterday claimed the licensing system was seriously flawed and have called for the process to be overhauled.

pedroeibar1

iTom wrote: »

Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan has been asked for a report on gun licensing practices by senior officers in the force, Justice Minister Alan Shatter has revealed.

The order was given after hunting and shooting enthusiasts settled a lawsuit with garda authorities amid allegations of blanket refusals for certificates for restricted weapons, including handguns.

“We are obviously going to have to examine what emerged in the court case, and I don’t want to pre-empt or pre-judge the information that is going to come back to me, but quite clearly it is a matter that is going to have to be addressed,” Mr Shatter said.

....................The National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC) yesterday claimed the licensing system was seriously flawed and have called for the process to be overhauled.

NARG now has a great opportunity for some hard-hitting PR. I hope they use it.
I don’t have an axe to grind on this, as I have the guns I want, but I’ve said all along that the onus was unfairly transferred onto the CS’s by the ‘Brass.’ That way the cute hoor minister escapes the heat and has fall guys to blame should anything go wrong.
Look at it another way – you’re the boss in a builders supply depot. All the customers want credit. Do you take the hard decisions, saying yes or no, or do you pass the buck down the line to your juniors, so you can kick a$$ and blame them should a problem arise? What the Minister, and brass, did was take the cowardly option.