beef price tracker

wrangler

amacca wrote: »

I dont see it like that I have to say........of course I could be wrong.

30 months is just an arbitrary age as far as I'm concerned and it promotes intensive beef production with lower returns to the primary producer (its probably good for grain merchants, processors et al and dare I say it intensive dairy farmers with lots of male calves to sell that know a culling policy wouldn't be great image wise for their industry)

Its probably a simplification and I could be wrong but wouldn't lower beef numbers in the country from raising that 30 month limit maybe result in a better price for the animal, it would certainly result in less intensive beef farming from current levels imo which would be good for the green image (more co2 sequestration etc) ...... not to mention less heads for the beef farmer to look after, less vet bills, less fertiliser and inputs + other associated costs? ..... or will processors just continue to undercut by importing tonnes of cheap intensively farmed meat from elsewhere in a scenario like that?

I personally believe that 30 month rule is good for everyone except the beef farmer...at least everyone the beef farmer has to buy a product or service off and supply his product to but prove me wrong I suppose.

It's the same as the lamb trade
I just see the 21 kg lamb as a requirement for sale, If I'm not happy with that I have to sell them somewhere else. It cuts no ice with the factory if I tell them I'll make more money at 25kg

memorystick

Cattle killed. 1/3 were Ps and 2/3 Os. Mostly fat score 3 and 2. Averaged €1093 after stoppages. Ate under 1/2 ton each of meal. Cost €550 in March 2019. Did ok I think.

High bike

bogman_bass wrote: »

If every proof was needed that the 30 month rule is needed to protect farmers from themselves there you have it. The final tally might look great but the margin on that animal isn’t great.

There isn’t much margin in stuffing cattle with meal to finish by 30 mts either when u get rode when u go to the factory

dzer2

memorystick wrote: »

Cattle killed. 1/3 were Ps and 2/3 Os. Mostly fat score 3 and 2. Averaged €1093 after stoppages. Ate under 1/2 ton each of meal. Cost €550 in March 2019. Did ok I think.

Made about 200 a head maybe a little less for 16 months 15 euro a month.

memorystick

dzer2 wrote: »

Made about 200 a head maybe a little less for 16 months 15 euro a month.

Are you my accountant?

dzer2

memorystick wrote: »

Are you my accountant?

God no

I suppose it's a way of saving money just about

Water John

Bit of a paradox when the organic market doesn't care about a 30 month limit.
As the Minister has said, the 30 month had nothing to do with them, this was dreamed up between other parties. Don't want to upset some posters here.

wrangler

Water John wrote: »

Bit of a paradox when the organic market doesn't care about a 30 month limit.
As the Minister has said, the 30 month had nothing to do with them, this was dreamed up between other parties. Don't want to upset some posters here.

aw wwww , Are beef farmers not fit to make it in the real world.
I see posts in beef plan claiming that a beef baron orchestrated cowens demise.
How do ye make up these excuses for losing

MIKEKC

dzer2 wrote: »

Made about 200 a head maybe a little less for 16 months 15 euro a month.

How did you calculate that figure ?

Bass Reeves

memorystick wrote: »

Cattle killed. 1/3 were Ps and 2/3 Os. Mostly fat score 3 and 2. Averaged €1093 after stoppages. Ate under 1/2 ton each of meal. Cost €550 in March 2019. Did ok I think.

I be disappointed after feeding 500kgs/head if I had many FS2. At 550/head last spring they must have been a fairly decent weight when buying 300kgs???. I think you said they went in at 3.5 flat. Average weight 315 kgs so 640/650kgs LW at slaughter. 470 days on farm would give 0.67kgs gain LW/day. Grass is the key with Friesians. I gave up trying to kill in large numbers a few years ago I trickle them out in 3's and 4's and maybe 6-8 at the time. Really struggling to fact cover on them this year, they have taken another growing spurt over the last 4-6 weeks even the f@@kers on ration. I have 6 Ch in with them and they are flying it but still only FS 3ish's. A lot of the Fr are only FS 2+ but will pill 3-4 next week and a few the following week. 3 went last week. Could do with pulling the Ch's but they have too much left in them.

On the other hand 670grams/day is better than an AA would do. I have a belted Galloway in the finishing bunch on ration for 8 weeks just trudleing along gobbling meal but not finishing. Since mid May everything seems to be growing and not finishing.

memorystick

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I be disappointed after feeding 500kgs/head if I had many FS2. At 550/head last spring they must have been a fairly decent weight when buying 300kgs???. I think you said they went in at 3.5 flat. Average weight 315 kgs so 640/650kgs LW at slaughter. 470 days on farm would give 0.67kgs gain LW/day. Grass is the key with Friesians. I gave up trying to kill in large numbers a few years ago I trickle them out in 3's and 4's and maybe 6-8 at the time. Really struggling to fact cover on them this year, they have taken another growing spurt over the last 4-6 weeks even the f@@kers on ration. I have 6 Ch in with them and they are flying it but still only FS 3ish's. A lot of the Fr are only FS 2+ but will pill 3-4 next week and a few the following week. 3 went last week. Could do with pulling the Ch's but they have too much left in them.

On the other hand 670grams/day is better than an AA would do. I have a belted Galloway in the finishing bunch on ration for 8 weeks just trudleing along gobbling meal but not finishing. Since mid May everything seems to be growing and not finishing.

There were some great Fr but its the Holstein blood that makes them hard to finish. They throve really well. May was a tough month on grass. I bought a cheap batch of mixed cattle and they worked out. I sell a good bite of surplus grass which is zero grazed and get lambs to graze in winter. Tis very challenging to count every penny cost wise but I think it’s ok.

jntsnk

memorystick wrote: »

Cattle killed. 1/3 were Ps and 2/3 Os. Mostly fat score 3 and 2. Averaged €1093 after stoppages. Ate under 1/2 ton each of meal. Cost €550 in March 2019. Did ok I think.

Thanks for the honest post. Reckon without meal they’d be mostly P’s.

Bass Reeves

memorystick wrote: »

There were some great Fr but its the Holstein blood that makes them hard to finish. They throve really well. May was a tough month on grass. I bought a cheap batch of mixed cattle and they worked out. I sell a good bite of surplus grass which is zero grazed and get lambs to graze in winter. Tis very challenging to count every penny cost wise but I think it’s ok.

I cost it as follow's per head
Transport, slaughter and Mart fees 35 euro
Grass 100 euro
wintering ( last year 145 days extra long and some low DM silage) 140 euro
Vet, medicines, mortality 25 euro
ration 40/head
misc 35 euro.

That is tipping near the 375/head. I probably being a bit harsh on my costs in 1-2 places but I would need to average 600/head gross margin this year to net 200/head. Last winter cost me 30-40/head extra in feeding costs due to length and low dry matter silage.Grass costs at 100/head is nearly 7K for grass costs this year( silage is covered in wintering costs 8.7K for total fertlizer will be in the 4K total mark and slurry about 1800 euro, silage making costs, bought in some and etc shy of 4.5K) so probably a bit more there than I think but I will struggle to average 600/head gross margin. Real killer will be replacements are looking to be 100 more expensive than last year at present

memorystick

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I cost it as follow's per head
Transport, slaughter and Mart fees 35 euro
Grass 100 euro
wintering ( last year 145 days extra long and some low DM silage) 140 euro
Vet, medicines, mortality 25 euro
ration 40/head
misc 35 euro.

That is tipping near the 375/head. I probably being a bit harsh on my costs in 1-2 places but I would need to average 600/head gross margin this year to net 200/head. Last winter cost me 30-40/head extra in feeding costs due to length and low dry matter silage.Grass costs at 100/head is nearly 7K for grass costs this year( silage is covered in wintering costs 8.7K for total fertlizer will be in the 4K total mark and slurry about 1800 euro, silage making costs, bought in some and etc shy of 4.5K) so probably a bit more there than I think but I will struggle to average 600/head gross margin. Real killer will be replacements are looking to be 100 more expensive than last year at present

You’ve mad high costs.

DBK1

memorystick wrote: »

You’ve mad high costs.

They are definitely the costs associated with keeping cattle for a year and if anything the wintering cost is too low. Bass I don’t know what size stock you keep for the winter but any animal around the 450 to 500 kilos will cost more than €1 a day to keep from my experience. Even with feeding no ration they’ll still cost €1.20 to €1.30 a day and the problem with feeding no ration is their growth will be very poor for that cost.

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I cost it as follow's per head
Transport, slaughter and Mart fees 35 euro
Grass 100 euro
wintering ( last year 145 days extra long and some low DM silage) 140 euro
Vet, medicines, mortality 25 euro
ration 40/head
misc 35 euro.

That is tipping near the 375/head. I probably being a bit harsh on my costs in 1-2 places but I would need to average 600/head gross margin this year to net 200/head. Last winter cost me 30-40/head extra in feeding costs due to length and low dry matter silage.Grass costs at 100/head is nearly 7K for grass costs this year( silage is covered in wintering costs 8.7K for total fertlizer will be in the 4K total mark and slurry about 1800 euro, silage making costs, bought in some and etc shy of 4.5K) so probably a bit more there than I think but I will struggle to average 600/head gross margin. Real killer will be replacements are looking to be 100 more expensive than last year at present

memorystick wrote: »

You’ve mad high costs.

I not sure or am i being realistic. Take the transport slaughter and mart fees there is 10/head on slaughter on every animal(an extra 5 if an AA or HE) I am allowing 10/head for transport to factory, 5 for mart fees and 6-7 for transport into farm( only 50% come through mart on average and if buying privately usually get seller to deliver so not far off 35 euro.

Vets Med and mortality, herd test average about 5/head mortality 10/head(even though lucky for last two years knock on wood) that leaves 10/head to cover dosing, odd vet call out ( if a vet comes to an animal it adds 1 euro/head to them all by the time any injections are added)

I gone through my silage and wintering costs I do not own a slurry tanker, adgitator so all slurry is contracted out.

Ration is costing me 220/ton in the bin as I said cattle are slow finishing allowing for lads that will be fed in the autumn 4-5kgs/day my figure of 40 euro would be 60 days at 3kgs/head across total herd.

Misc is diesel for tractor maintenance on them, tax and insurance on them a bit of electricity in the shed etc.

Bass Reeves

DBK1 wrote: »

They are definitely the costs associated with keeping cattle for a year and if anything the wintering cost is too low. Bass I don’t know what size stock you keep for the winter but any animal around the 450 to 500 kilos will cost more than €1 a day to keep from my experience. Even with feeding no ration they’ll still cost €1.20 to €1.30 a day and the problem with feeding no ration is their growth will be very poor for that cost.

I have silage costed at 25/bale generally a good dry bale (which I have this year) lasts a pen of 16 bullocks over two days that is 70c/day and 3-4c/day for mins and vits. Stores would generally averaging over 450kgs across the whole lot. I be fairly confidence that my winter and grass costs are covers in 240 euro/head for total year.

wrangler

DBK1 wrote: »

They are definitely the costs associated with keeping cattle for a year and if anything the wintering cost is too low. Bass I don’t know what size stock you keep for the winter but any animal around the 450 to 500 kilos will cost more than €1 a day to keep from my experience. Even with feeding no ration they’ll still cost €1.20 to €1.30 a day and the problem with feeding no ration is their growth will be very poor for that cost.

+1 the guys doing Contract rearing are claiming that they need 1.20+/day average over the year, so 1.50 indoors and €1.00 outdoors.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

+1 the guys doing Contract rearing are claiming that they need 1.20+/day average over the year, so 1.50 indoors and €1.00 outdoors.

If you are contract rearing and costs are as you posted there is no margin in it. You would want lower costs. Admittedly at CR you have weight targets to reach. My own system is keep inputs low and at time of poor grass growth to accept reduced weight gain.

To achieve a 160/ head margin you would need a out 43c/day margin that would be tight on 1.2/ day

DBK1

I won’t dispute your costs Bass if you have them worked out at that but you seem to be running a fairly efficient system and one that I would imagine 90% of farmers wouldn’t be matching.

So for lads that think their costs are lower than that, they either don’t understand what their costs are or they don’t want to know them as they will then know they are losing money! I’d say the costs you’re quoting are the very best any beef farmer can aim for.

There’s also nothing included for any once off costs like say purchase, running costs and maintenance of a jeep/van, reseeding, fencing, shed or yard maintenance, a load of concrete every now and then, changing a tractor etc. Start adding a small amount for all them items and that’s when the true costs for lads stack up.

Then there’s the most important one of all, your time!! For any farmer try to even pay yourself at minimum wage for the hours you spend on the farm and that’s when, if looked at through an accountants eye’s, they will just ask you why!?

wrangler

DBK1 wrote: »

I won’t dispute your costs Bass if you have them worked out at that but you seem to be running a fairly efficient system and one that I would imagine 90% of farmers wouldn’t be matching.

So for lads that think their costs are lower than that, they either don’t understand what their costs are or they don’t want to know them as they will then know they are losing money! I’d say the costs you’re quoting are the very best any beef farmer can aim for.

There’s also nothing included for any once off costs like say purchase, running costs and maintenance of a jeep/van, reseeding, fencing, shed or yard maintenance, a load of concrete every now and then, changing a tractor etc. Start adding a small amount for all them items and that’s when the true costs for lads stack up.

Then there’s the most important one of all, your time!! For any farmer try to even pay yourself at minimum wage for the hours you spend on the farm and that’s when, if looked at through an accountants eye’s, they will just ask you why!?

I have been warning Bass about ignoring fixed costs for a while now. :cool:

wrangler

Water John wrote: »

Bit of a paradox when the organic market doesn't care about a 30 month limit.
As the Minister has said, the 30 month had nothing to do with them, this was dreamed up between other parties. Don't want to upset some posters here.

You'd imagine that you'd have learnt last year that absolutely no one can tell the Beef Processors what to do.
They set the price and specs, and if you don't like it.....tough

Robson99

memorystick wrote: »

You’ve mad high costs.

He is fairly on the ball. I can't see anywhere that he is high on. Maybe you could highlight a few areas and educate us a bit but my figures would be fairly similar to that

memorystick

Robson99 wrote: »

He is fairly on the ball. I can't see anywhere that he is high on. Maybe you could highlight a few areas and educate us a bit but my figures would be fairly similar to that

I’ll do it ov a wet day but winter cost seems high. Only 4 bales each here. 4 ton of 18 6 12 over 27 acres for grazing.

Anto_Meath

Robson99 wrote: »

He is fairly on the ball. I can't see anywhere that he is high on. Maybe you could highlight a few areas and educate us a bit but my figures would be fairly similar to that

I am only here about a year and the one thing I have noticed is Bass is usually fairly on the ball when it come to his figures.

Robson99

memorystick wrote: »

I’ll do it ov a wet day but winter cost seems high. Only 4 bales each here. 4 ton of 18 6 12 over 27 acres for grazing.

That's 90 -100 a head for silage
Do you factor in anything for spraying, lime, reseeding, hedge cutting, fencing, topping etc in your grazing costs ?
He is far from mad

wrangler

Jjameson wrote: »

2.00 indoors minimum. Unless you want to loan your facilities for free.

I was going to say that, but I didn't want to make a show of Bass,s figures altogether,
I used to feed cattle for farmers here 30 yrs ago, £25 - €30/month was the rate then for 500kg

Bass Reeves

DBK1 wrote: »

I won’t dispute your costs Bass if you have them worked out at that but you seem to be running a fairly efficient system and one that I would imagine 90% of farmers wouldn’t be matching.

So for lads that think their costs are lower than that, they either don’t understand what their costs are or they don’t want to know them as they will then know they are losing money! I’d say the costs you’re quoting are the very best any beef farmer can aim for.

There’s also nothing included for any once off costs like say purchase, running costs and maintenance of a jeep/van, reseeding, fencing, shed or yard maintenance, a load of concrete every now and then, changing a tractor etc. Start adding a small amount for all them items and that’s when the true costs for lads stack up.

Then there’s the most important one of all, your time!! For any farmer try to even pay yourself at minimum wage for the hours you spend on the farm and that’s when, if looked at through an accountants eye’s, they will just ask you why!?

wrangler wrote: »

I have been warning Bass about ignoring fixed costs for a while now. :cool:

I give you examples of fixed costs in farming. In the late noughties under the enviormental I build a shed it cost approx 123K, I claimed back about the vat it came to about 16.5K, I then got the grant of about 65K on top of it. In the end the shed cost 43K which I wrote off against tax at the high rate.

Now that is totally written off how do I add it in as a fixed cost. If you factor in the lifetime of an average shed is 40 years how do I cost it. If I sell 60 cattle /year that about 2.5K cattle over forty years that is 17 euro/head of a fixed cost.

I could go through my accounts for you but I prefer no to In the world of accountancy what is an expense and what is not. I am not driving a Land Cruiser, yes I have a RAV but that is as much a lifestyle choice as a work vehicle. Last year I have over 6K in depreciation and motor running expenses going through the books agri diesel was 300 euro, wages were 9K including fees. Ya I am depreciating a bit of machinery.

I do not feed meal for the winter I feed silage and min's only. Last year I got caught with some cattle late in the year and finished about 20+ out of the shed average ration over 59 cattle was about 3.5K, actually my fert and lime was 35 euro....It had gone into the 2018 accounts, I buy 4 ton of 18-6-12, 4.5 Ton Urea, 2 Ton of CAN.

Actually when I look at my direct expenses on the account last year it works out at about 190/head if I add in the fertlizer it will add about 60/head to the figures. Over the last 3-4 years I have bought the ration bill on the farm back from hitting 10K to last years 3.5K.

Now in 2019 I did not get all my stock through in the calendar year about 6 cattle went into the 2020 accounts but my sales hit 68K that added another 8K to that figure. I had my SFP on top of it. Purchases were about 40K(I have 10 extra stores this year.

So ya I am fooling myself

richie123

DBK1 wrote: »

I won’t dispute your costs Bass if you have them worked out at that but you seem to be running a fairly efficient system and one that I would imagine 90% of farmers wouldn’t be matching.

So for lads that think their costs are lower than that, they either don’t understand what their costs are or they don’t want to know them as they will then know they are losing money! I’d say the costs you’re quoting are the very best any beef farmer can aim for.

There’s also nothing included for any once off costs like say purchase, running costs and maintenance of a jeep/van, reseeding, fencing, shed or yard maintenance, a load of concrete every now and then, changing a tractor etc. Start adding a small amount for all them items and that’s when the true costs for lads stack up.

Then there’s the most important one of all, your time!! For any farmer try to even pay yourself at minimum wage for the hours you spend on the farm and that’s when, if looked at through an accountants eye’s, they will just ask you why!?

Well said.

DBK1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I give you examples of fixed costs in farming. In the late noughties under the enviormental I build a shed it cost approx 123K, I claimed back about the vat it came to about 16.5K, I then got the grant of about 65K on top of it. In the end the shed cost 43K which I wrote off against tax at the high rate.

Now that is totally written off how do I add it in as a fixed cost. If you factor in the lifetime of an average shed is 40 years how do I cost it. If I sell 60 cattle /year that about 2.5K cattle over forty years that is 17 euro/head of a fixed cost.

I could go through my accounts for you but I prefer no to In the world of accountancy what is an expense and what is not. I am not driving a Land Cruiser, yes I have a RAV but that is as much a lifestyle choice as a work vehicle. Last year I have over 6K in depreciation and motor running expenses going through the books agri diesel was 300 euro, wages were 9K including fees. Ya I am depreciating a bit of machinery.

I do not feed meal for the winter I feed silage and min's only. Last year I got caught with some cattle late in the year and finished about 20+ out of the shed average ration over 59 cattle was about 3.5K, actually my fert and lime was 35 euro....It had gone into the 2018 accounts, I buy 4 ton of 18-6-12, 4.5 Ton Urea, 2 Ton of CAN.

Actually when I look at my direct expenses on the account last year it works out at about 190/head if I add in the fertlizer it will add about 60/head to the figures. Over the last 3-4 years I have bought the ration bill on the farm back from hitting 10K to last years 3.5K.

Now in 2019 I did not get all my stock through in the calendar year about 6 cattle went into the 2020 accounts but my sales hit 68K that added another 8K to that figure. I had my SFP on top of it. Purchases were about 40K(I have 10 extra stores this year.

So ya I am fooling myself

I hope you didn’t take me up wrong, I definitely don’t think you are fooling yourself. Much the opposite really, if you can get your costs down to that I admire your efficiency. Like Anto said earlier, I’m not here that long either and I’ve also figured out that you’re generally on the ball with your figures. The point I was making was that the majority of beef farmers would not be meeting that standard of efficiency so for anyone reading this and thinking about their own costs I’d be reasonably confident they would get it hard to match yours.

It was a brave move building a shed to that value and obviously it was a move that payed off but not a lot of lads would have done that so lads putting up smaller bits of sheds every couple of years would have more costs to consider. You also said you got to write it off at the higher rate of tax so I’m assuming you have (or at least had at that time) a reasonably well paying off farm job. That in effect subsidised your farm as it was the tax paid from your job that made it possible to write off at the high rate. Any full time farmers or lads with lower paying off farm jobs wouldn’t have this advantage.

I agree with your point about the jeep as well, I don’t have a big land cruiser myself either. If the Rav is a lifestyle choice then absolutely go for it. But for someone without an off farm job the farm has to pay for that choice so it is a cost to be considered.

I supposed my main point is fixed costs will be different on every farm and it’s up to everyone to know their own but for anyone that thinks your costs are high then i don’t think they understand what their costs are and they are definitely fooling themselves.