Scottish Independence - What say you?

A Dub in Glasgo

LordSutch wrote: »

Hopefully a definitive question will be asked, YES or NO to staying in the Union (forget DevoMax), I would also hope that a reasonable timscale 're this issue' will be inserted into the procedings so that it will be at least thirty years before the next referendum on the Union can be held.

The UK can't afford to have the permanent threat of destabilisation hanging over it.

The probelm with the above is that I get the distinct feeling that the majority want more than the current devolution but not quite full independence. Devolution max is actually supported by the unionist parties in Scotland as well.

Devolution max is about controlling the income as well as the expenditure whereas the current devolution is just about expenditure from a block grant from the UK Government which leads to all sorts of ignorant postings about how the English are funding free perscriptions, free tuition fees etc

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The probelm with the above is that I get the distinct feeling that the majority want more than the current devolution but not quite full independence. Devolution max is actually supported by the unionist parties in Scotland as well.

Devolution max is about controlling the income as well as the expenditure whereas the current devolution is just about expenditure from a block grant from the UK Government which leads to all sorts of ignorant postings about how the English are funding free perscriptions, free tuition fees etc

So Scotland would be able to provide those things outside of the union would they?

Agricola

Easy way for the SNP to get a Yes in the referendum. Have a 50" TV and surround sound in every polling station in the country playing this on a loop!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3oz0zhEwZk

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So Scotland would be able to provide those things outside of the union would they?

If that was the highest priority policy of the Government at the time, yes.

Sunnyisland

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If that was the highest priority policy of the Government at the time, yes.

Hi A Dub in glasgow whats the feeling on the ground over there ? Is there much debate between the people ?

bwatson

Agricola wrote: »

Easy way for the SNP to get a Yes in the referendum. Have a 50" TV and surround sound in every polling station in the country playing this on a loop!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3oz0zhEwZk

I'm not even an Englishman and I can see that this is just a poor man's version of Shakespeare's famous Henry V speech!

A Dub in Glasgo

realies wrote: »

Hi A Dub in glasgow whats the feeling on the ground over there ? Is there much debate between the people ?

Not as much as on here lol

I don't think folk are too impressed with the Cameron and Moore last week. The level of debate I have heard in work usually revolves around insecurity on the No side to we will be world leaders on the Yes side.

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The probelm with the above is that I get the distinct feeling that the majority want more than the current devolution but not quite full independence. Devolution max is actually supported by the unionist parties in Scotland as well.

Devolution max is about controlling the income as well as the expenditure whereas the current devolution is just about expenditure from a block grant from the UK Government which leads to all sorts of ignorant postings about how the English are funding free perscriptions, free tuition fees etc

You are possibly correct about DevoMax, but the problem arises when that option is inserted into the referendum (see post#147).

Sunnyisland

Mr Salmond told the Morning Show on Ireland’s national broadcaster RTE: “I am sure, as many people in Ireland will remember, that sometimes people in leadership positions in big countries find it very difficult not to bully small countries.

“Of course, what we have seen – as everybody knows – over the last week is the most extraordinary attempt to intimidate Scotland by Westminster politicians.”

Later in the interview, he made a similar remark, saying: “As again the people of Ireland will know, bullying and hectoring the Scottish people from London ain’t going to work.”

Mr Salmond’s comments were criticised by Lord Trimble, the former Ulster Unionist leader who was awarded a Nobel Prize for his role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland.

Lord Trimble said Mr Salmond had been “playing to the gallery in spades”. He went on: “It is grandstanding on stilts. It is totally divorced from the reality. My understanding is that the government have been trying to get into a conversation with Mr Salmond for the past year, but he has been declining to talk to them.”

The First Minister also angered politicians on the other side of the political divide.

Seamus Mallon, a former leader of the moderate, mainly nationalist SDLP, suggested Mr Salmond should brush up on his history, saying many Scots were members of the Black and Tans, the notorious British militia that gained a reputation for violence in Ireland after the Great War.

Mr Mallon said: “Scotland was part of the bullying that took place in Ireland. People from Scotland were the cornerstone of the plantation of Ulster. I think Alex is a very able performer, but his knowledge of history is a little weak.

“As recently as 15 years ago, you had Scottish regiments here, enforcing the writ of Britain so, I think I could recommend a good history of Ireland for him.”


With 18 months to go to the referendum this debate will get very nasty.

laoch na mona

their entitled to independence England has no legitimate claim to Scotland

Sindri

laoch na mona wrote: »

their entitled to independence England has no legitimate claim to Scotland

The same royal family?

bwatson

laoch na mona wrote: »

their entitled to independence England has no legitimate claim to Scotland

Scotland isn't a colony.

laoch na mona

Sindri wrote: »

The same royal family?

doesn't the current royal family descend from a king shipped in to fight the Scottish king

laoch na mona

bwatson wrote: »

Scotland isn't a colony.

never said it was

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

their entitled to independence England has no legitimate claim to Scotland

England never has made a claim to Scotland.

It looks like Mr Salmond isn't the only one that needs to buy a history book.

Sindri

laoch na mona wrote: »

doesn't the current royal family descend from a king shipped in to fight the Scottish king

James VI & I

bwatson

laoch na mona wrote: »

never said it was

It was what I inferred, and I'm sure what 99% of people would infer from such a statement.

Ok, so if you agree that Scotland is not currently annexed by England can you further explain the phrase you used then?

"England has no legitimate claim to Scotland"

You don't seem to understand what the United Kingdom is.

woodoo

Some interesting results.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9015374/Britain-divided-over-Scottish-independence.html

Doc Ruby

woodoo wrote: »

Some interesting results.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9015374/Britain-divided-over-Scottish-independence.html

Hrm. So voters in England are convinced that a) Scotland should be independent and b) Scotland would be worse off. Bit of mean streak on them lads.

KeithAFC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

England never has made a claim to Scotland.

It looks like Mr Salmond isn't the only one that needs to buy a history book.

He tried to compare Scotland with Ireland and forgot the Black and Tans and that Scotland played a huge part in the British Empire.

Ellis Dee

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Some interesting points there.

Who are these ruling classes of which you speak? The current PM David Cameron, whore Father Ian Donald came from Aberdeen, his predecessors Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, both of whom hail from Scotland?

---

Don't confuse the stewards who collect the rent and take care of the everyday running of the estate with the people who own it and reap the benefits as they live in luxury in their big houses.:) Don't confuse the judas sheep with those who own the flock. There are always some members of a subjugated people who will switch their allegiance to the conqueror, identify with them more than with the nation from which they originated. :rolleyes:

According to your reasoning, the Georgians (the nation that gave us Stalin) were the ruling class in the Soviet Union. :pac::pac:

BeefyS

230 people voting yes?

just shows how little a clue about pretty much anything practical the general populace of this country has.


oh right thats why we kept voting in criminals to rob us. herp de durr

Richard

KeithAFC wrote: »

He tried to compare Scotland with Ireland and forgot the Black and Tans and that Scotland played a huge part in the British Empire.

Irish people played a role in the Empire too.

Fratton Fred

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Don't confuse the stewards who collect the rent and take care of the everyday running of the estate with the people who own it and reap the benefits as they live in luxury in their big houses.:) Don't confuse the judas sheep with those who own the flock. There are always some members of a subjugated people who will switch their allegiance to the conqueror, identify with them more than with the nation from which they originated. :rolleyes:

According to your reasoning, the Georgians (the nation that gave us Stalin) were the ruling class in the Soviet Union. :pac::pac:

Sorry, I thought you were living in the real world.

Ok, Blair et al were obviously working for the lizardmen.

Cú Giobach

Richard wrote: »

Irish people played a role in the Empire too.

Just like people from every other part of the empire, and just like those in countries/kingdoms occupied by the Germans, Russians, Spanish, Romans, Greeks...........

LordSutch

Richard wrote: »

Irish people played a role in the Empire too.

Indeed, Irish people played a massive role in creating the Empire, a fact which has been increasingly downplayed since the birth of the Republic.

To say that we helped create the Empire really does'nt sit well with the modern image of Irish nationalism. We created the British Empire along with the English, the Scots & the Welsh!!! indeed its often said that the Empire was won by the Irish, administered by the Scots & the Welsh, and then lost by the English.

Immaculate Pasta

If Scotland adopt a Scandinavian model of running the economy which the SNP have discussed before I think they'll do well for themselves. People keep assuming that if Scotland leave the UK they'll automatically be just another puppet EU state. The climate between Scotland and Scandinavia is similar. What the Scandinavians have done well of developing strong capitalist economies but most importantly with a human face which Anglo-American dominated economies have failed to do where governments favour business and elite over its population.

Scandinavian countries do well in running a strong economy and its people have a high standard of living. Neither Sweden or Norway have the Euro, they use their own currencies and Norway isn't even part of the EU and perform well economically. Scotland shouldn't be scared to leave the union over the currency dispute. There's no stopping them starting their own currency. Also SNP's idea of developing a container port at Fife to rival Rotterdam is a very good idea for trade. 90% of trade or something is done by container ships. Scotland doesn't need to rely on handouts from London to do well economically.

The SNP manifesto copying a Scandinavian model is clever and shows it is basing policies based on the country's strengths and geographical position, something I wish Ireland would have done. I'm not saying Ireland should adopt the Scandinavian model as Ireland is very different to Scandinavia but our agricultural and sea trade links are poor compared to what they should be and these should be Ireland's strengths.

Link on what the SNP plan to do is here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bye-bye-england-snp-plans-closer-scandinavian-ties-after-independence-6272337.html

Batsy

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Hrm. So voters in England are convinced that a) Scotland should be independent and b) Scotland would be worse off. Bit of mean streak on them lads.

If you looked at the poll carefully you will also see that voters in Scotland are also convinced that Scotland would be worse off.

later12

Batsy wrote: »

If you looked at the poll carefully you will also see that voters in Scotland are also convinced that Scotland would be worse off.

Yes, some are, but not necessarily the same voters who want Scottish independence.

40% of Scottish voters approved of independence

38% of Scottish voters felt Scotland would be better off independent. But 21% of respondents were not accounted for. It may be that those who approved of independence felt Scotland would be better off, or had no strong opinion about the aftermath.

Tiocfaidh Armani

If I still live in Scotland at the time of the referendum I'm voting 'Yes':)